Anybody notice that Microsoft doesn't write in .Net?

J

jim

Look at Microsoft and Windows apps in Vista.... They aren't .Net.

If .Net is so great, why doesn't MS use it more? In fact, what desktop
applications does Microsoft code in .Net?

I think Microsoft avoids major desktop apps in .Net because the performance
sucks. Look at Symantec's antivirus apps and Franklin Covey's Plan Plus for
Windows and Neat Reciepts and you'll see what I mean. The UI performance
sucks.

I said it with the first release of .Net and I'm sticking to it.... .Net was
one of Microsoft's biggest mistakes, but they have never (and looks like
will never) admit to or back away from a mistake - be that Windows Me, Vista
or .Net.

Too bad. People know companies make mistakes - after all companies are run
by people. Companies that don't admit mistakes still make them, they just
lie about them.

jim
 
M

Mr. Arnold

jim said:
Look at Microsoft and Windows apps in Vista.... They aren't .Net.

But other software vendors are devloping solutions in .Net for Vista.

http://www.bestvistadownloads.com/
If .Net is so great, why doesn't MS use it more? In fact, what desktop
applications does Microsoft code in .Net?

Why should MS develop existing applications it has in .NET? You know the old
saying, if its not broke, then you don't fix it. And anyone would be a fool
to be converting existing code, if it's not need and has no Return On
Investment or ROI.
I think Microsoft avoids major desktop apps in .Net because the
performance sucks. Look at Symantec's antivirus apps and Franklin Covey's
Plan Plus for Windows and Neat Reciepts and you'll see what I mean. The
UI performance sucks.

You no more know what you're talking about than the man in the Moon.
I said it with the first release of .Net and I'm sticking to it.... .Net
was one of Microsoft's biggest mistakes, but they have never (and looks
like will never) admit to or back away from a mistake - be that Windows
Me, Vista or .Net.

You do know that .Net is a standard don't you?

You do know that there are many other languages that use the .Net platform?

http://www.startvbdotnet.com/dotnet/languages.aspx

..Net has been very good to me and is putting some serious $$$$ in my pockets
on the contract I am working on at this time. And I getting calls from the
East/West coasts and from the North/South borders in the US to work on .NET
protects.
Too bad. People know companies make mistakes - after all companies are
run by people. Companies that don't admit mistakes still make them, they
just lie about them.

You're a troll and you are entitled to your worthless dime a dozen opinions,
because everyone has got one.

And you are a fool if you think Vista is going anywhere.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=785

<http://www.iis.net/articles/view.as...o-Take-Advantage-of-the-IIS7-Integrated-Pipel>

<http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2006/04/20/Cool-new-IIS7-Features-and-APIs.aspx>

<http://www.aspnetpro.com/opinion/2006/08/asp200608jg_o/asp200608jg_o.asp>

<http://www.code-magazine.com/Article.aspx?quickid=060103>
 
J

jim

Mr. Arnold said:
But other software vendors are devloping solutions in .Net for Vista.

http://www.bestvistadownloads.com/


Why should MS develop existing applications it has in .NET? You know the
old saying, if its not broke, then you don't fix it. And anyone would be a
fool to be converting existing code, if it's not need and has no Return On
Investment or ROI.

I agree. No need to rewrite apps just to rewrite them. But what about new
desktop apps for Windows? Can you name *any* applictions that do
significant work (i.e. that are data or process intensive) that use .Net -
even better one that's written by Microsoft? Can you name any that perform
as quickly or as stable as their C++\VB6 predecessors?
You no more know what you're talking about than the man in the Moon.

I own these apps. I run them on a 3.06 GHz dual core processor with 4 GB
RAM and 2 500 GB hard drives on a fully optimized system. Core CPU
utilization is minimal and they run like molasses.

If you have a real response to these observations, I would be happy to hear
it.
You do know that .Net is a standard don't you?

Sure. One designed to sell more software that was never needed in the first
place. Like you said, "if its not broke, then you don't fix it."
You do know that there are many other languages that use the .Net
platform?

I also know that there are many countires that use communism and socialism
as models for their governments. That doesn't mean that they are good, just
because they are being used. And, it doesn't mean that the people forced to
use them don't suffer because of it - just like most programmers under .Net.
.Net has been very good to me and is putting some serious $$$$ in my
pockets on the contract I am working on at this time. And I getting calls
from the East/West coasts and from the North/South borders in the US to
work on .NET protects.

So, a language is good becaue it puts money in your pockets at the expense
of usability and productivity of the end users? How nice for you.

I used to be a code whore myself. Then I grew a backbone and decided to
make an honest living. You should try it. It does wonders for your self
image - and wallet.
You're a troll and you are entitled to your worthless dime a dozen
opinions, because everyone has got one.

I am a troll? Is that because I don't bow down at the Microsoft alter and
worship without questioning the logic of detroying personal (and
professional) productivity? Or is it because you feel like I am attacking
your meal ticket?

4 of your 5 links have to do with IIS7, not Vista. If you cannot tell the
difference, IIS7 is an application, Vista is an OS. While IIS7 will only
run on Vista and Longhorn Servers and offers more support for .Net
applications, it is still not written in .Net. Why not? Because .Net
cannot handle the speed needed for IIS7.

And, since IIS7 is primarily an application for hosting websites, most users
will never see or use it directly. So, where is this killer .Net
application from Microsoft? IIS7 is neither a killer desktop app, nor is it
written in .Net nor will it sway everyday users to adopt Vista.

If you want to know the fate of Vista - even Microsoft is backpeddling on
this one......
http://www.news.com/Microsoft-extends-Windows-XPs-stay/2100-1016_3-6210524.html?tag=nefd.top .

Now, if you could kindly stop name calling long enough to evoke some
similance of logical thought, I would be most interested in your reply.

jim
 
P

PvdG42

jim said:
Look at Microsoft and Windows apps in Vista.... They aren't .Net.

If .Net is so great, why doesn't MS use it more? In fact, what desktop
applications does Microsoft code in .Net?

I think Microsoft avoids major desktop apps in .Net because the
performance sucks. Look at Symantec's antivirus apps and Franklin Covey's
Plan Plus for Windows and Neat Reciepts and you'll see what I mean. The
UI performance sucks.

I said it with the first release of .Net and I'm sticking to it.... .Net
was one of Microsoft's biggest mistakes, but they have never (and looks
like will never) admit to or back away from a mistake - be that Windows
Me, Vista or .Net.

Too bad. People know companies make mistakes - after all companies are
run by people. Companies that don't admit mistakes still make them, they
just lie about them.

jim

Actually, newer parts of Visual Studio are written in .NET in VS 2005, and
more in VS 2008.
 
C

Cowboy \(Gregory A. Beamer\)

..NET, overall, is more used by Microsoft on their web applications. There
are some .NET bits in SQL Server, which performs fine, however. You also see
some .NET in Office and a few other applications.

I am not sure about Symantec AV, Plan Plus or Neat Receipts. I have,
however, seen some very fine UIs written in .NET. I am also not sure what
version of windows you are looking at, how much memory, etc. Without having
specs, it is hard to blame .NET for the suckage.

Microsoft does have some bits in Vista that are .NET. They did back off the
"SQL Server as file system" push, at least for now, and you do not see a
major .NET UI piece.

It would seem like MS is not embracing .NET, but you have to remember most
of the programs that are on the market have been in multiple year cycles, so
your statements will be more fair in a year or two. If MS still does not
invest in .NET for their own product, the argument will bear more weight.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP, MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

*************************************************
| Think outside the box!
|
*************************************************
 
J

Jeff Gaines

.NET, overall, is more used by Microsoft on their web applications

It has always seemed to me that it is more suited to web applications than
desktop applications, although the name may have some bearing on that. I
wonder if desktop support will be beefed up in the coming version?
 
M

Mr. Arnold

Jeff Gaines said:
It has always seemed to me that it is more suited to web applications than
desktop applications, although the name may have some bearing on that. I
wonder if desktop support will be beefed up in the coming version?

Many companies are using .Net solutions like .NET Service and Console
applications to do back-end processing. I have developed some of them
myself. I have also developed Web application as well. I have also developed
Windows desktop solutions that are using .Net remoting that are in
communications with a IIS Web server as an application gateway. More and
more solutions for .Net are coming to the Windows desktop, but I would say
that's mostly in a corporate or medium to small business environment.
 
J

jim

PvdG42 said:
Actually, newer parts of Visual Studio are written in .NET in VS 2005,
and more in VS 2008.

Compared to VB6 and the pre-.Net Visual Studio, it's slow and clunky.

jim
 
J

jim

Jeff said:
It has always seemed to me that it is more suited to web applications
than desktop applications, although the name may have some bearing on
that. I wonder if desktop support will be beefed up in the coming version?

That's been my theory all along...that Microsoft wrote .Net to further
their internal goals of software-as-a-service and just decided to drag
everyone else down that misguided path for 2 reasons. The first being
to use us all as the world's largest test base for their own internal
tools and the second being to cut costs by supporting only the tool set
that they wanted to use internally instead of one for their SAAS and one
for real-world developers designing for the desktop.

Rest assured its about raising profits for MS investors - not about the
code, not about the developers and certainly not about the end users.

jim
 
J

jim

Mr. Arnold said:
Many companies are using .Net solutions like .NET Service and Console
applications to do back-end processing. I have developed some of them
myself. I have also developed Web application as well. I have also
developed Windows desktop solutions that are using .Net remoting that
are in communications with a IIS Web server as an application gateway.
More and more solutions for .Net are coming to the Windows desktop, but
I would say that's mostly in a corporate or medium to small business
environment.

With all due respect Mr. Arnold, this is one of the problems.

What made Windows great was the ability of the goal oriented developers
(mostly hobbyist and part-time programmers) to develop "cool" and "must
have" applications for the OS. Corporate software is usually bloated
and lacking in features that end users (both novice and hard core) are
thirsting for.

Visual Basic *made* Windows. With .Net, Microsoft has abandoned g.o.d.
(goal oriented developers). And, one thing a successful OS or software
venture must never do is turn its back on g.o.d. like Microsoft did when
they killed VB6.

jim
 
P

PvdG42

jim said:
Compared to VB6 and the pre-.Net Visual Studio, it's slow and clunky.

jim


So, you use Visual Studio? Exactly what kinds of applications do you
develop? As I use it daily and have not experienced the vague symptoms you
cite, I'm wondering if you actually use the product, or is this more of your
rumor mongering?
 
M

Mr. Arnold

jim said:
With all due respect Mr. Arnold, this is one of the problems.

What made Windows great was the ability of the goal oriented developers
(mostly hobbyist and part-time programmers) to develop "cool" and "must
have" applications for the OS. Corporate software is usually bloated and
lacking in features that end users (both novice and hard core) are
thirsting for.

Well, I have to assume that you have never faced a corporate end-user base
wanting speed in application execution or faced a manager needing speed of
execuition with said application developed. Man, I have been doing this for
20 some pluse years. And I started when Apple was in a wodden box.
Visual Basic *made* Windows. With .Net, Microsoft has abandoned g.o.d.
(goal oriented developers). And, one thing a successful OS or software
venture must never do is turn its back on g.o.d. like Microsoft did when
they killed VB6.

If you want speed of execution, then one uses VC++ 6 and not VB 6, which I
have had many years of writing VB 6 applications. Nothing against VB 6 as I
enjoyed working with the language for several years. The day I moved away
from VB 6 is the best thing I could have done. VB6 is dead and only exist
for existing legacy applications.
 
M

Mr. Arnold

jim said:
That's been my theory all along...that Microsoft wrote .Net to further
their internal goals of software-as-a-service and just decided to drag
everyone else down that misguided path for 2 reasons. The first being to
use us all as the world's largest test base for their own internal tools
and the second being to cut costs by supporting only the tool set that
they wanted to use internally instead of one for their SAAS and one for
real-world developers designing for the desktop.

Rest assured its about raising profits for MS investors - not about the
code, not about the developers and certainly not about the end users.

You do know that MS doesn't own .Net? That's right MS gave it all away. The
reason .Net even exist is because of the fallout between Sun Micro Systems
and MS about the use of Java by MS. VB.Net is proprietary to MS.
 
J

jim

Mr. Arnold said:
You do know that MS doesn't own .Net? That's right MS gave it all away.
The reason .Net even exist is because of the fallout between Sun Micro
Systems and MS about the use of Java by MS. VB.Net is proprietary to MS.

Microsoft does own .Net and has the trademarks to the .Net name.

Let's let Microsoft speak for itself, shall we? "Microsoft .NET is a
brand associated with Microsoft technology. .NET is not a platform, an
application, or a service. Rather, it is a set of capabilities in
products that enables people, information, systems, and devices to
connect and exchange information seamlessly through the use of Web services.

The Microsoft .NET Connected logo program was developed to highlight
specific products that exhibit Web service connectivity through the use
of the .NET Framework, an integral component of the Windows operating
system. Products or services that meet the criteria to use the logo but
have chosen not to license the logo should use the phrase "Microsoft
..NET-connected" (but not the Microsoft .NET or Microsoft .NET Connected
logos) according to the guidelines set forth on this Web page."

This can be found at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/intellectualproperty/trademarks/usage/net.mspx.
You should really read it. They are quite specific about who can use
".Net" and how. Some of it may surprise you.

What Microsoft actually submitted to the ECMA (along with help from
Borland, Fujitsu, Hewlett-Packard, Intel Corporation, International
Business Machines, ISE, IT University Copenhagen, Microsoft Corporation,
Monash University, Netscape, Novell Corporation, OpenWave, Plum Hall,
Sun Microsystems, and the University of Canterbury New Zealand ) was
actually 2 items - the CLI specification
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm)
and the C# specification
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm).

This was a brilliant move on Microsoft's part. It gave the illusion of
participating in open standards while placing a 6-9 month (as
Microsoft's own pages state at ) wait for any adoption of standards even
via the ECMA's Fast Track process.

This gives Microsoft a never-ending buffer of a minimum of 6-9 months
AFTER they propose changes to the standard (which they seem to do about
every 2 years).

This 6-9 months is just for the ECMA to "Fast Track" the changes to
..Net. Then, competing languages and IDEs must incorporate those changes
(add another 6-12 months) and then the coders must learn and incorporate
the changes into their new code (another 6-12 months).

That's a 18-36 month lead on the competition! What software company
wouldn't do that? And, it just so happens that .Net versions are coming
out in approx. 36 month intervals! Surprise, surprise, surprise! As
soon as the competition catches up - BAM! - Microsoft takes another step.

This has long been a (largely successful) business practice of
Microsoft's - distract and destroy. By keeping others chasing the
moving dot, they can happily work on other concepts and markets with
very little fear of anyone actually opposing them.

For instance, the good (but simple minded) folks over at Novell just
can't seem to wrap their tiny skulls around the notion that Mono will
ALWAYS be playing catch-up to Microsoft. That places Microsoft just
where they want to be - in control of the future of desktop computing.

The thing that I find strange is how willingly supposedly intelligent
people simply follow along like crack addicted sheep.

Linux distros had better wake up as well and start innovating instead of
following and trying to match Microsoft.

After all, who wants to match slow and clumsy feeling apps and OSs?

jim
 
J

jim

jim said:
What Microsoft actually submitted to the ECMA (along with help from
Borland, Fujitsu, Hewlett-Packard, Intel Corporation, International
Business Machines, ISE, IT University Copenhagen, Microsoft Corporation,
Monash University, Netscape, Novell Corporation, OpenWave, Plum Hall,
Sun Microsystems, and the University of Canterbury New Zealand ) was
actually 2 items - the CLI specification
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm)
and the C# specification
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm).

My apologies.....the C# ECMA link should have read
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm.

jim
 
J

jim

PvdG42 said:
So, you use Visual Studio? Exactly what kinds of applications do you
develop? As I use it daily and have not experienced the vague symptoms you
cite, I'm wondering if you actually use the product, or is this more of
your rumor mongering?

I only write ASP.Net webpages for communications coorporations and internal
desktop apps as a frontend for our sales and management teams. Currently
using Visual Studio .Net 2005 Pro with SQL Server 2005 and Oracle back ends.

But, I could just be making that up too. So, how about we stick to what we
can both prove.....that .Net UIs are slower than pre-.Net UIs?

jim
 
M

Mr. Arnold

jim said:
Microsoft does own .Net and has the trademarks to the .Net name.

Let's let Microsoft speak for itself, shall we? "Microsoft .NET is a brand
associated with Microsoft technology. .NET is not a platform, an
application, or a service. Rather, it is a set of capabilities in products
that enables people, information, systems, and devices to connect and
exchange information seamlessly through the use of Web services.

That's incorrect. XML allows this and not Web services, which can be used by
any type of .Net solution or non .Net solution. There is also .NET Biz Talk
server that allows .NET applications and applications running on mainframes
to communicate with each other through the use of XML over TCP that have
nothing to do with Web services, as an example. The key to cross platform
communications is through the use of XML. And XML is a key component of
..NET.
The Microsoft .NET Connected logo program was developed to highlight
specific products that exhibit Web service connectivity through the use of
the .NET Framework, an integral component of the Windows operating system.
Products or services that meet the criteria to use the logo but have
chosen not to license the logo should use the phrase "Microsoft
.NET-connected" (but not the Microsoft .NET or Microsoft .NET Connected
logos) according to the guidelines set forth on this Web page."

..NET is not soley about Web solutions.
This can be found at
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/intellectualproperty/trademarks/usage/net.mspx.
You should really read it. They are quite specific about who can use
".Net" and how. Some of it may surprise you.

What Microsoft actually submitted to the ECMA (along with help from
Borland, Fujitsu, Hewlett-Packard, Intel Corporation, International
Business Machines, ISE, IT University Copenhagen, Microsoft Corporation,
Monash University, Netscape, Novell Corporation, OpenWave, Plum Hall, Sun
Microsystems, and the University of Canterbury New Zealand ) was actually
2 items - the CLI specification
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm)
and the C# specification
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm).

Thank you, but I have already read that months ago maybe a year and a half
ago as to what was going to happen..
This was a brilliant move on Microsoft's part. It gave the illusion of
participating in open standards while placing a 6-9 month (as Microsoft's
own pages state at ) wait for any adoption of standards even via the
ECMA's Fast Track process.

This gives Microsoft a never-ending buffer of a minimum of 6-9 months
AFTER they propose changes to the standard (which they seem to do about
every 2 years).

This 6-9 months is just for the ECMA to "Fast Track" the changes to .Net.
Then, competing languages and IDEs must incorporate those changes (add
another 6-12 months) and then the coders must learn and incorporate the
changes into their new code (another 6-12 months).

That's a 18-36 month lead on the competition! What software company
wouldn't do that? And, it just so happens that .Net versions are coming
out in approx. 36 month intervals! Surprise, surprise, surprise! As soon
as the competition catches up - BAM! - Microsoft takes another step.

Business is business and one tries to stay ahead of the competition. It's
Java that needs to catch-up to .Net. But Sun Micro Systems is sitting on
the ECMA .Net Standard committee dancing to MS's tune.
This has long been a (largely successful) business practice of
Microsoft's - distract and destroy. By keeping others chasing the moving
dot, they can happily work on other concepts and markets with very little
fear of anyone actually opposing them.

Again, business is business.
For instance, the good (but simple minded) folks over at Novell just can't
seem to wrap their tiny skulls around the notion that Mono will ALWAYS be
playing catch-up to Microsoft. That places Microsoft just where they want
to be - in control of the future of desktop computing.

Mono is solely for ASP.Net solutions the last time I looked. I don't think
Mono has anything to do with desktop solutions.
The thing that I find strange is how willingly supposedly intelligent
people simply follow along like crack addicted sheep.

They are going to dance to the MS tune just like they did with IBM when IBM
was the king. It's the nature of the beast. It's the old saying is that you
dance to the leader's tune. When some other compnay becomes the leader, they
will all dance to that compnay's tune.
Linux distros had better wake up as well and start innovating instead of
following and trying to match Microsoft.

There is no leader of Linux to push it with advertisement money. It's all a
grassroots movement. But Open Source and Linux have forced something like
..Net to be free for developers IMO, otherwise, developers will start jumping
ship on MS. Some have already done just that.
After all, who wants to match slow and clumsy feeling apps and OSs?

If you think MS is going to fall or not dominate the market in your
lifetime, you have got another thing coming. :)

BTW, I sat in .Net training classes 8 hours a day for four weeks being
hammered on .NET, when the company I worked for at the time flew in a .Net
guru from India to train the client server developers.

MS is nothing compared to the mutil billons, billons, and billions more
billions then it needs company I use to work for.

I suggest you read the book *Rats in the Grain*, and the company is just as
cut throat and more cut throat than MS will ever be.

And Win 2k3 server, IIS7 and .NET are walking Linux and Apache down.

http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2007/08/06/august_2007_web_server_survey.html
 
A

Andrew P.

Microsoft does use .NET a lot, but it can't migrate every application
entirely to .NET, not to mention there are still some programmers in
Microsoft who aren't trained to use .NET.

Microsoft.com, MSDN, Live.com, Channel 9 and a lot of other websites of
Microsoft use ASP.NET. SQL Server Management Studio, Sharepoint (fully
..NET), the SBS 2003 tools, the Windows Media Center plug-in applications,
the API of Windows XP Tablet PC - all these are developed using the .NET
Framework. But the majority of Microsoft software only partially uses the
..NET Framework (for the newer components usually.)

By the way, you should check channel9.msdn.com - there are a lot of
discussions on .NET with the MS employees.

Andrew,
Geekpedia.com
 
C

Cor Ligthert[MVP]

Jim,

As it is as you write, why are you telling this, do it better, however keep
your mouth until you have achieved that.

Cor
 
I

info

Hi Jim,


Here is my though:

If you work all day as a developer you'll find your .NET applications
more easy to write and more robust. Yes, some time you need to spend
some time to make your code faster but believe me the final result is
not so slower than C++ and it is *for sure* more robust.


Alberto
 

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