All the king's horses and all the king's men.......

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim Hubbard
  • Start date Start date
Lebesgue said:
You are saying that .NET initiative of Microsoft is causing fewer apps to
be written for Windows?
Click to expand...

I do not have any numbers on that because many applications which have been
written in VB6 have been used inside companies and were not availabe in the
local software store. I even consider VBA macros and projects as
applications, which have never been sold in the public marked but are used
extensively to get work done.
VB6 programmers are not allowed to write their code in VB6 anymore?
Click to expand...

Sure, they are, but support has already been stopped partly and will
completely end in a few years. Developing professional software is not only
about using a tool. Giving the customer guarantees is crucial. Would you
buy an expensive software product if you do not know if it still works after
the next OS update? Would you like to pay far higher prices because the
software product needs to be rewritten every n years because of a technical
change in the OS or the supported technologies?
Hobbyists (they are who have written most of the billions of lines ever
written in pre-.NET VB.) should absolutely not care about any reason you
can think of why they should not code in VB6.
Click to expand...

There are lots of hobbyists, but there are lots of small and specialized
software companies too which sell only a few products. Those companies
often cannot afford an update which doesn't add any value to their product
except reaching the status quo again by rewriting code that is already
working perfectly. The need to rewrite code only because of support plans
and technologies being abandoned for marketing reasons decreases innovation
and productivity.
And "average business application developers"? If they are that much
"average" that they are not able to comply with the need of the market,
they are not worth being developers.
Click to expand...

I usually measure the value of an application by measuring how well it
performs its job, especially those of indoor applications.
Average developers are writing average code. And lots of average code is
not what any platform needs, so if the fact that fewer code is written for
windows was by any chance caused by adoption of .NET, it would be good -
less bad (average code by average developers is bad) code, more competent
developers in result.
Click to expand...

You are missing the point. Programming is not done to serve any abstract
goals such as writing object-oriented code, etc. Its main purpose is to
create tools which support the human to get his work done.
 
Why continue to beat this dead horse? Microsoft is not going to do anything
different from their current
plans regarding VB. And no amount of crying and moaning is going to change
that. ( it certainly hasn't
made any noticable difference yet) Instead of continuing to make posts like:
"All the king's horses and
all the king's men........ " , how about contributing something useful?
james
 
Kevin Spencer said:
Where have all the VB developers gone? Why, most of them are now using
VB.Net or C#. Some have perhaps gone over to "the other side of the fence"
(Java) where the grass always seems greener from whatever side you happen
to
Click to expand...

Can't forget the 1000's going to Delphi.... funny thing that Delphi. The
code from the non dotNet version almost always works in the dotNet version
(and most likely, with obvious exceptions, in Kylix). What a concept.
 
I'm not trying to get Microsoft to change (that dog just won't hunt).....I'm
trying to get Linux to.....
 
AMercer said:
So many disagreements in one sentence. For brevity, I'll use parentheses.

"It seems that Microsoft is valiantly trying to undo the harm it has done
(not undoing, no harm done) to itself by destroying (no) VB6
Click to expand...

You say that there is no harnm done, but you do not address the issues of
fewer software applications being developed. that means fewer choices for
application consumers which, in turn, leads to less innovation, less
productivity and less value in the Windows platform as a whole for end users
and businesses (especially small businesses and consumers where economic
times are hard).
in favor of the
more bloated, less-RAD (no, the opposite for me, and I think for others
too,
caveat with spin up issue below), less-user friendly (no), less-productive
(big no) VB.Net."
Click to expand...

I say it is less RAD because the part-time programmer must now become as
knowledgable as a professional programmer to accomplish the same quality
programs that were possible with VB6. This does include time to learn the
language.

VB6 was much easier for a PTP to pick up and write an acceptable application
to meet his/her goals.
You may have a point about bloated. I am inclined to disagree, but it is
debatable. I'd rather drop it since a big off-topic digression may
follow.

Having had experience with earlier versions of VB, I found spinning up to
VB6 to be very easy, whereas .NET took some real effort. I'm guessing it
was/is the same for you. Now, I'm well spun up with .NET, and IMO, .NET
is
much superior to VB6.

So, my only knock against .NET is that it is relatively hard to learn.
For
me, that is a minor knock, for some, it is a very serious knock. Your RAD
complaint applies when not spun up, but it does not apply thereafter. To
me,
RAD means rapid app development, and it does not include spin up time. If
for you, RAD includes spin up time, then I withdraw my RAD disagreement.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, with the major shift in application design and development
from VB6 to VB.Net the learning curve is a major reason that many PTP CANNOT
spend the needed time away from their primary jobs to adequately learn
VB.Net to the point that they can be as efficient with it as they were with
VB6.

Thank you for your thoughts.
 
No. The original post was actually an attempt to help the people that want
to make the jump to VB.Net make that jump. That's why I posted the link to
the free ebook.

If this had been just to take a jab at MS or VB.Net, rest assured I would
not have included a helpful link.
 
Hmm... As trolls go, I'd rate this one sub-par. Jim is obviously doing
his best to provoke a reaction, but his posts are so long that most of
us just get glassy-eyed after the first few words. Grade: C; good
provocation, but far too verbose.
 
I re-read your original, my response, and your response to that. I've only
dabbled in the rest. I come up with just one takeaway. .NET is tougher to
learn, so the community is smaller, particularly the PTPs, and hence (1) less
innovation generally, and (2) .NET is RAD-wise weak when measured by dev time
plus spin up time.

That's about all I see of value, and I pretty much agree with it. But these
points are not very strong. First, a smaller community with a better
platform (.NET is better IMO) can yield as much innovation as a weaker
platform with a larger community. I'm not saying it will or it won't, but it
is far from obvious that community size is the compelling driver for
innovation - maybe platform capability is. Second, as I implied before, spin
up is a one time learning cost, once learned, .NET is very suitable for RAD.
I agree and concede that .NET requires considerable time and effort to learn,
and that is a negative.
 
I agree. The size of the programming group does not guarantee that no new
software innovations will occur. However, a smaller brain pool does
significantly lessen the possibility of such occurrence.

Just take a look at the software released to the public since .Net was made
available. It has been 5 years and the offerings in .Net (of any flavor)
are pathetic. IMHO, this indicates a dangerous trend away from innovation
on the Windows platform.

The window of opportunity (no pun intended) for Linux to take advantage of
this has been open for some time. I can only hope one of them waddles
through it.

The competition to Microsoft's platform would be good for consumers and even
good for Microsoft. They'd have to change their model to more responsive to
the masses and come out of their plastic bubble in Redmond where (it seems)
everyone tells everyone else how great things are and nobody hears the
screams outside the bubble.

The Emperor has no development platform - so to speak.

I truly believe that we'd all be better off with a free RAD Linux solution
(be that REALbasic or another) to rival Microsoft.

We CAN set our families, our friends, our businesses, our countries and
ourselves free. The questions remains......will we?

JH
 
You say that there is no harnm done, but you do not address the issues of
fewer software applications being developed.
Click to expand...

You have provided no evidence of this assertion. Why should anyone address a
non-existent issue?
I say it is less RAD because the part-time programmer must now become as
knowledgable as a professional programmer to accomplish the same quality
programs that were possible with VB6. This does include time to learn the
language.
Click to expand...

The same quality programs that were possible with VB6 were toys by
comparison to what is possible and being done today. The demands are for
applications that take full advantage of the technology available today. And
the security issues are much more stringent. What was cool 5 years ago is
obsolete today.
Unfortunately, with the major shift in application design and development
from VB6 to VB.Net the learning curve is a major reason that many PTP
CANNOT spend the needed time away from their primary jobs to adequately
learn VB.Net to the point that they can be as efficient with it as they
were with VB6.
Click to expand...

Good. That means more work for the rest of us.

--
Live it, or live with it,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.
 
Now, I'd love it if I could get my VB2005 programs (or earlier) to run in
Linux. I know about Mono and Monodevelop. But, it is still far away from
working to the point you can write a single application and output files
that will run in both OS's.
( unless, I've slept too much lately and that one got by me!!)
james
 
REALbasic can do that. With the Professional version, you can write a
program once and run it on Mac OSX, Windows or Linux. And, there's no
virtual machine needed (like with Mono, .Net and Java). Apps compile into a
single EXE - which considerably simplifies installation and doesn't suffer
from dependency woes (like DLLs or even .Net patches that wreck
compatibility........they did tell you about those, right?).

The Linux version is free - in case you want to get your feet wet for free.
And, I'd suggest getting SUSE to run it on (easy install & great hardware
support). With the new edition of SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop)
edition (due out this summer), you will get all the eye candy of Vista (and
then some) without waiting for another year for Vista (that's if it doesn't
get kicked to 2008).

You can get the free Linux standard version of REALbasic at
http://www.realsoftware.com/download/ (pick your OS - Novell or RedHat).
You can even run REALbasic's IDE and develop apps in Windows and on Mac OSX.
So, download it and jump right in - the water's fine.

Novell and REALbasic are now partnering to include the free standard edition
of REALbasic for Linux on SUSE distros - as is Linspire and REALbasic (it's
in the CNR).

The cool thing with REALbasic on Linux is that the OS is free (or damned
cheap) but, you can sell the REALbasic apps. They don't have to be open
source! And, you don't have to reveal your code base. (although you
certainly can if you want to support open source.)

BTW, REALbasic helps you convert your company's old VB6 code into REALbasic
a hell of a lot better than .Net does. It has VB-like syntax and is fully
object oriented (if you're into that sort of thing ;) ).

REALbasic is what Linux has needed! It puts the Linux desktop where
Microsoft + VB (the real VB - not .Net) was when Microsoft's desktop
dominance grew to it's peak. VB was Microsoft's catalyst - one that they
chose to abandon. REALbasic will do the same thing for Linux.

The more distros that carry REALbasic, the more free we will all be.

Only you can set yourself free. (with regards to Smokey)

JH
 
Kevin Spencer said:
You have provided no evidence of this assertion. Why should anyone address
a non-existent issue?
Click to expand...

Just look around..... Where the hell are they? Where are the PTP developed
applications that prolificated with VB6? Where are they?

I have seen a few large companies put out .Net apps.....but the majority of
the application development and innovators are small businesses or single
developers. They simply aren't putting out apps any more - now that it's
VB.Net or the highway.

They certainly don't want to develop apps when Microsoft has said it would
not carry the VB runtime indefinitely or even allow flaws in it to be fixed.
The same quality programs that were possible with VB6 were toys by
comparison to what is possible and being done today. The demands are for
applications that take full advantage of the technology available today.
And the security issues are much more stringent. What was cool 5 years ago
is obsolete today.
Click to expand...

In some cases this is true. That's exactly wht software innovation should
be preserved, not tossed away as MS did with VB. VB.Net wasn't an evolution
of VB, it was a replacement of VB.

VB is dead.
Good. That means more work for the rest of us.
Click to expand...

No.....that means more work for China, Russia and India. Corporations have
gone from 11% outsourcing to more than 21% outsourcing and it's only going
to get worse with this .Net monstrosity.

JH
 
I'm ahead of you on that one!! I have RealBasic2005 & 2006 PRO. Won a
year's worth of updates last year.
I annoyed some in this group and others just to win a copy and try it for a
while. I did add the disclaimer
that it was an Off Topic post, but, it still earned me some
complaints............but, I still managed to get several
people to try the free download and in the proccess I won a copy for myself
and a free year of updates.
While you are correct that it will build apps for Windows, MAC ( original
not the Intel version) and "some"
versions of Linux, that is only to a point. Anything that gets the least OS
specific will create problems. That is why
( until now) they have 3 versions. One for each OS. So you can fine tune
the app for a particular OS.
As for .NET patches wrecking compatibility,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,HUH?? That hasn't
happened to me yet. I have been
working on a app in VB.NET 2003 ( and will eventually port it to 2005) and
have not had any problems with
a patch for .NET ( there are some???) causing problems.
As much as I like Linux, I still prefer to work with Windows and VB2003 &
2005 work great in that respect.
Come to think of it, you were also on here touting RB as the be all to cross
platform programming in order to
get yourself a free copy. In fact, if I remember correctly, ( and I may
not) you were going to dump .NET and
even Windows at some point because of all the problems you were having. So,
what happened? You're still here!!
If you read some of RB's forums and the single usenet group, you'll see they
have more than their share of problems
and complaints. Anyway, I think I'll stick with what is in most demand, and
it ain't Linux ,,,,,,,,,,,,at least not in my
part of the country!!! ( gotta go where the money is)
james
 
I'll give you the name of a major application that is written with
..NET.............Norton Internet Security 2006.
First thing it does if you install it on a machine that hasn't had the 1.1
Framework installed, is to install the framework.
As for PTP apps developed in VB.NET,,,,,,,,,,,,you need to find a local
DotNet User's Group. I know of two , one in
Dallas and the other in Ft.Worth ( where I'm a member) and there are a lot
of people that attend the meetings and are
in the middle of developing apps in .NET for their businesses. Went to the
Launch Event in Dallas back in December and
the Dallas Convention Center was packed with developers. So, if no one were
developing with .NET there would have
been little to no attendance. The simple fact is, that .NET is being used
everyday and used to build enterprise class applications. There are things
that VB.NET ( now VB2005) can do that VB6 just could not do or if it could
at all, it required some very ugly hacks. I liked VB6 for what it was. But,
I love VB.NET/2005. It is VB on steriods.
james
 
james said:
I'll give you the name of a major application that is written with
.NET.............Norton Internet Security 2006.
Click to expand...

Had to uninstall that one twice this week and install AVG in its place.
First thing it does if you install it on a machine that hasn't had the 1.1
Framework installed, is to install the framework.
As for PTP apps developed in VB.NET,,,,,,,,,,,,you need to find a local
DotNet User's Group. I know of two , one in
Dallas and the other in Ft.Worth ( where I'm a member) and there are a lot
of people that attend the meetings and are
in the middle of developing apps in .NET for their businesses. Went to
the Launch Event in Dallas back in December and
the Dallas Convention Center was packed with developers. So, if no one
were developing with .NET there would have
been little to no attendance. The simple fact is, that .NET is being used
everyday and used to build enterprise class applications.
Click to expand...

You are right. .Net is stuck in the enterprise. Inside buildings of
companies where their apps have no competition. It is mostly used for
internal applications. My point about PTPs not making and distributing .Net
apps to the public (even after 5 years) is still valid.
There are things that VB.NET ( now VB2005) can do that VB6 just could not
do or if it could at all, it required some very ugly hacks.
Click to expand...

True. It could not do SOAP natively. It could not do remoting (but, who
really does anyway). It could barely fill a floppy with it's runtime. And.
let's not forget that it could not be staopped as a RAD development tool by
anyone but Microsoft.
I liked VB6 for what it was. But, I love VB.NET/2005. It is VB on steriods.
Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree here. IMHO (and the opinions of thousands
of other professional VB programmers) it is not VB at all.

JH
 
james said:
I'm ahead of you on that one!! I have RealBasic2005 & 2006 PRO. Won a
year's worth of updates last year.
I annoyed some in this group and others just to win a copy and try it for
a while. I did add the disclaimer
that it was an Off Topic post, but, it still earned me some
complaints............but, I still managed to get several
people to try the free download and in the proccess I won a copy for
myself and a free year of updates.
Click to expand...

Me too.
While you are correct that it will build apps for Windows, MAC ( original
not the Intel version) and "some"
versions of Linux, that is only to a point. Anything that gets the least
OS specific will create problems.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. You shoudl wrap your OS specific stuff inside statements
that check for which OS your app is running in. But, if you WANT to tweak
it for a specific OS to the exclusion of all others, you certainly can.

As far as that goes, you can distribute REALbasic apps made of a single
blank form if you want to.....but I wouldn't.
That is why
( until now) they have 3 versions. One for each OS. So you can fine tune
the app for a particular OS.
Click to expand...

"Until now".......
As for .NET patches wrecking compatibility,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,HUH?? That
hasn't happened to me yet. I have been
working on a app in VB.NET 2003 ( and will eventually port it to 2005) and
have not had any problems with
a patch for .NET ( there are some???) causing problems.
Click to expand...

Subscribe to KBAlertz.com (it's free and you won't get on a spam list for
using it). You can also look up the KB articles for any flavor of the .Net
framework there is.

Funny thing about most of the KB artcles....you almost always have to call
Microsoft for the patches. I still wonder why this is the case.

Let's say that we find a flaw in a .Net framework and there is a known
work-around and a patch that you can call Microsoft and get. If I call
Microsoft and get the patch (but you use the work-around), installing my
patched framework and app just may break your work-around (and many others).
IMHO, they should patch all of the frameworks or none of them. Keep the
playing field level.
As much as I like Linux, I still prefer to work with Windows and VB2003 &
2005 work great in that respect.
Come to think of it, you were also on here touting RB as the be all to
cross platform programming in order to
get yourself a free copy. In fact, if I remember correctly, ( and I may
not) you were going to dump .NET and
even Windows at some point because of all the problems you were having.
So, what happened? You're still here!!
Click to expand...

I never pushed REALbasic for a free anything. I honestly did it (and do it
now) because I believe that it could be good for the programming industry,
small businesses and PTPers. And, it is a way to free yourself (and your
company) from the Microsoft monopoly.

I did get a copy of REALbasic Pro for my efforts, but I'm still pushing it
as a PTPer's best choice right now because I believe in it. I don't work
for REALbasic. And, I don't get any freebies for my speaking my mind.

I'm still here because I am not a language or OS zealot. If a client asks
me to write a .Net solution, I will still do so. After all, the client is
the boss. If s/he wants .Net, s/he should have .Net.

If, however, they ask my opinion, I will take a long hard look at their
resources (both interms of hardware, monetary resources and for future
development and maintenance of the project), the goals of the project, the
most pragmatic OS for the client and make a suggestion based on those
factors.

And, until more sustainable (as in business model) apps are written for
Linux, Windows/.Net will be requested more by clients around the world.

REALbasic is changing that. Will it suddenly knock MS off the throne this
weekend? Probably not. But (as long as REALbasic's team keeps up the good
work), it won't be long.

What businesses need to realize is that there is a VB for Linux. It is
REALbasic. Don't see an app you need to adopt Linux for your business? You
can write it in REALbasic.

Got old VB6 code that you don't want to throw away because of the cost and
trouble you went to to code it in the first place? REALbasic is better at
converting VB6 apps than .Net is.

Want to be more in control of your enterpise? Linux is not subject to the
whims of a single company like Windows is....and it's much cheaper.
If you read some of RB's forums and the single usenet group, you'll see
they have more than their share of problems
and complaints.
Click to expand...

I know. I'm on the beta list. I see all of the reported bugs and
work-arounds.

REALbasic's still not perfect. But, the company is built on keeping
programmers happy. And, there is no conflict of onterest because they don't
own the OS.
Anyway, I think I'll stick with what is in most demand, and it ain't Linux
,,,,,,,,,,,,at least not in my
part of the country!!! ( gotta go where the money is)
Click to expand...

Everybody'd got to eat.

This change will not be an overnight one. Even if every classic VB
programmer had a free copy of Linux running with REALbasic 2006, it would
take up to 2 years to see the apps becoming mainstream.

This is a paradigm shift.....not a fad.

Good luck to you!

JH
 
You have provided no evidence of this assertion. Why should anyone
Just look around..... Where the hell are they? Where are the PTP
developed applications that prolificated with VB6? Where are they?
Click to expand...

You call this evidence? A logical argument is a conclusion preceded or
otherwise reinforced with factual (or accepted by all parties as factual)
premises. "Just look around" followed by a series of rhetorical questions,
is not a logical argument, nor does it contain any evidence. No wonder you
can't keep up. Your ability to use logic is non-existent. You might be
better suited to a career in politics, where rhetoric is king, and logic has
little value.
I have seen a few large companies put out .Net apps.....but the majority
of the application development and innovators are small businesses or
single developers. They simply aren't putting out apps any more - now
that it's VB.Net or the highway.
Click to expand...

First, you use personal perception as statistical evidence, which it is not,
particularly when the perception is clouded by a decidedly prejudiced point
of view. Second, you continue with assertions backed by no evidence, and
assumptions which you regard as fact, expecting everyone else to accept
these assertions and their factual accuracy at face value. Again, there is
no logic employed in this argument. I see much emotion, but no
self-discipline.
They certainly don't want to develop apps when Microsoft has said it would
not carry the VB runtime indefinitely or even allow flaws in it to be
fixed.
Click to expand...

Whining never solved anything. It is a waste of resources. Programmers are
problem-solvers. You are not.
In some cases this is true. That's exactly wht software innovation should
be preserved, not tossed away as MS did with VB. VB.Net wasn't an
evolution of VB, it was a replacement of VB.
Click to expand...

What you call "innovation" is not. "Innovation" is defined as "the act of
creating something new." Very few VB applications (particularly by your
definition of the term "application," which is so broad as to include
macros) had any innovation to them at all. They were useful, yes, and
enabled the automation of repetitive tasks, for the most part (when defined
as you have defined them). But that is not innovation. It is the employment
of existing tools in the manner for which those tools were created.

I find it particularly odd that you seem to want to preserve "software
innovation," yet lament that it is evolving so rapidly at the same time.
No.....that means more work for China, Russia and India. Corporations
have gone from 11% outsourcing to more than 21% outsourcing and it's only
going to get worse with this .Net monstrosity.
Click to expand...

I suppose the Chinese, Russians, and Indians do not fall into the category
of "the rest of us?" And are you trying to imply that people in China,
Russia, and India have less trouble with the new .Net paradigm and new
technology than people in your country? This would have to mean that the
average I.Q. in those countries was higher than the average I.Q. in your
country. Is that what you're asserting?

Perhaps competition is a good thing. Disallowing outsourcing, and other
forms of protectionism, remove the incentive to compete, to strive for
improvement and excellence. Personally, I welcome competition. I bought a
Japanese car last year, because it was the best car for the money. My hope
is that Detroit got my message. I do my country no favors by allowing
corporations to use political manipulation to prosper, rather than honest
hard work and competition. If I were to allow that, my country would become
weak and impoverished. And I will gladly compete for jobs in software
development. It makes me a better developer.

This is the way of things. More recently, it would seem there was similar
lamentation by railroad tycoons over the invention and subsequent popularity
of the automobile.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

If the truth hurts, wear it.
 
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