Advice request for building a Xeon E3-1275 ECC-based system from ASUSP8B WS motherboard

C

Castor Nageur

This motherboard is $300, and would be similar in nature to a LGA1155
desktop board.

"S5512GM2NR"

http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=ht...pec.aspx?ProductType=MB&pid=700&SKU=600000225

Supported DIMM Qty (4) DIMM slots
DIMM Type / Speed Unbuffered ECC DDR3 / 1333/1066/800
Capacity Up to 32GB
Memory channel 2 Channels
Memory voltage 1.5V

http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=ht..._new_sandy_bridge_server_platforms/index.html
Click to expand...


Hi all,

In a previous thread, Paul advised me to look for the Tyan S5512GM2NR
motherboard for building an Intel ECC based system.
For the CPU, as Paul advised, I would take the relatively cheap Intel
Xeon E3-1275 Sandy Bridge.

Unfortunately, the Tyan S5512GM2NR is impossible to find in any shop
of the Internet's world.
I kept on searching and found the Asus P8B WS based on a 1155 socket
and an Intel C206 chipset which can also support the Xeon E3-1275.
It's also cheaper than the Tyan, has a sound interface and finally, it
is available in my street's computer shop ;-)

Here is the Asus P8B WS link:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8B_WS/#specifications

I plan to install 3x4 GB of ECC DDR3-1333 RAM.

* What do you think of it ?

* Does someone here already use it and have an opinion ?

Thanks in advance for your reviews.
 
P

Paul

Castor said:
Hi all,

In a previous thread, Paul advised me to look for the Tyan S5512GM2NR
motherboard for building an Intel ECC based system.
For the CPU, as Paul advised, I would take the relatively cheap Intel
Xeon E3-1275 Sandy Bridge.

Unfortunately, the Tyan S5512GM2NR is impossible to find in any shop
of the Internet's world.
I kept on searching and found the Asus P8B WS based on a 1155 socket
and an Intel C206 chipset which can also support the Xeon E3-1275.
It's also cheaper than the Tyan, has a sound interface and finally, it
is available in my street's computer shop ;-)

Here is the Asus P8B WS link:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8B_WS/#specifications

I plan to install 3x4 GB of ECC DDR3-1333 RAM.

* What do you think of it ?

* Does someone here already use it and have an opinion ?

Thanks in advance for your reviews.
Click to expand...

You start by checking the CPU Support list.

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8B_WS/#CPUS

"Intel Xeon E3-1275 (3.4G,1333,8MB,4C,D2) ALL 0401"

That means, as long as version 0401 or later of BIOS is installed
in the motherboard, it will be able to handle the E3-1275.

Eleven reviewers have written comments here (in the Feedback section).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131725

"lemurcatta 7/10/2011 2:05:15 PM

ECC support not functional

...Now for some memory terminology. There is registered and non-registered
ECC memory. Registered (sometimes called buffered) is a totally separate
functionality from ECC memory correction. Bromolow chipset mobos will take
non-registered ECC memory. They will not work with registered ECC memory.

...

There is no evidence during post that non-registered ECC memory is detected.

If you need ECC functionality, get another Bromolow mobo. Try Tyan or
Supermicro mobos instead."

That's always a problem with motherboards, is verifying ECC actually works.
And that reviewer had a problem with the Asus board. Perhaps it could be
fixed via a BIOS update, but Asus updates the BIOS more frequently on
some of their boards, than on others, and a WS board may not receive
the same level of attention as some "overclocker" motherboard.

You can see more problems getting unbuffered ECC to work, here.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx...oard_id=1&model=P8B+WS&page=1&SLanguage=en-us

You can check the download page, and see if a new BIOS is available.
If the BIOS has release notes, it may even indicate if changes
have been made in the ECC area.

http://support.asus.com/Download.aspx?SLanguage=en&m=P8B WS&p=1&s=39

You can also get the manual, while you're there, and see how
poorly the section on installing memory is worded.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1155/P8B-WS/Manual/E6384_P8B_WS.pdf

The processor datasheet is here. Normally, I wouldn't bother, but I had
trouble getting this from their site. This will save you a couple minutes.

http://www.intel.com//content/dam/doc/datasheet/xeon-e3-1200-family-vol-1-datasheet.pdf
http://www.intel.com//content/dam/doc/datasheet/xeon-e3-1200-family-vol-2-datasheet.pdf

I found this description a bit corny, seeing as the memory interface is
on the processor itself. This is a tradition with Intel datasheets,
making statements like this without giving background info, as to why
such a situation might exist.

"The type of memory supported by the processor is dependent on the PCH SKU
in the target platform

— Advanced Server/Workstation PCH platforms support
ECC and non-ECC unbuffered DIMMs

— Essential and Standard Server PCH platforms support
ECC un-buffered DIMMs"

In any case, it uses unbuffered memory (not registered). It would be
a DIMM, with nine memory chips per side (usually) and no register
chips or clock buffer PLL. There is no point in using buffered
memory, since there are only four DIMM slots.

Paul
 
C

Castor Nageur

That means, as long as version 0401 or later of BIOS is installed
in the motherboard, it will be able to handle the E3-1275.
Click to expand...

OK, thanks for this precision.
Eleven reviewers have written comments here (in the Feedback section).
Click to expand...
ECC support not functional
There is no evidence during post that non-registered ECC memory is detected.
Click to expand...

After reading the mobo reviews, I even found people who did not manage
to get some ECC RAM working with this mobo.
If you need ECC functionality, get another Bromolow mobo. Try Tyan or
Supermicro mobos instead."
Click to expand...
You can see more problems getting unbuffered ECC to work, here.
Click to expand...

You definitely convinced me not to buy it.

I am living in France and want to get support for this quite expensive
product.
Newegg is too far away for me : it would have to pay excessive
postage, tax and of course pay postage again if I need to return it
back in case of hardware failure.
The only serious French site which sells Tyan or Supermicro or more
generally Intel C200 chipset serie-based mobo is LDLC.com:

Here is a search for the C204 chipset:

http://www.ldlc.com/navigation/cat....02_6_val=&filtre_150_3_op=2&filtre_150_3_val=

All Tyan and Supermicro mobos are unavailable.
It seems that I could get the ASUS P8B-E/4L with a 10 days delay.
Here is the Newegg link:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131723&Tpk=ASUS P8B-E/4L

I did find any feedback yet about the ECC support.
I you know other brand or chipset which is know as well handling ECC
memory, you are welcome.
I would not like to spend more than $300 for the mobo.
 
P

Paul

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151245&Tpk=S5512GM2NR
Click to expand...

If a person was to contact Tyan (Mitac) directly, they might be
given the names of some retailers. The Tyan people probably
know their distribution system the best.

If that didn't work, a search of the forums of 2cpu.com would
probably dig up some Tyan info. You could always ask here for
some sales leads. There are lots of discussions about server
boards here.

http://forums.2cpu.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13

Paul
 
C

Castor Nageur

First of all, I will not buy any of the ASUS P8B-serie (Bromolow
mobos) motherboards.
I read all the ASUS manuals and none of their BIOS have an ECC section
so there is no proof ECC really works for this boards (like you said).
So, Paul, you are right, Tyan seems to be the (only) brand which
handles ECC RAM correctly.

For an opinion, I would pass on the Sandy Bridge now, and wait for the next
batch at the end of the year or beginning of the next.

Paul gave me that same advice. But #1 I couldn't wait, and #2 I don't care
for the Sandy Bridge.
Click to expand...

As far as I am concerned, I want a Xeon E3-1275 CPU (other ones are
too expensive for me) and want ECC memory so I think I have a very
little mobos' choice (C20X / Bromolow).

* So what do you mean by "I would pass on the Sandy Bridge now" and
"wait for the next batch at the end of the year" ?

* Do you have an information about the next release of motherboards ?

Actutally, I can not wait because I need a new computer for my work
(my current mobo has a faulty component).

If a person was to contact Tyan (Mitac) directly, they might be
given the names of some retailers. The Tyan people probably
know their distribution system the best.
Click to expand...

I went on the Tyan "Where to buy" page then list of the resellers:

http://www.tyan.com/wtb_europe.aspx

Unfortunately, most of them only build servers for big companies using
Tyan motherboards.
I found a German web site (http://www.alternate.de) selling my Tyan's
mobos but they are unavailable at the moment.
If that didn't work, a search of the forums of 2cpu.com would
probably dig up some Tyan info. You could always ask here for
some sales leads. There are lots of discussions about server
boards here.
Click to expand...

Yes, I will do this.

Thanks you both.
 
P

Paul

Castor said:
As far as I am concerned, I want a Xeon E3-1275 CPU (other ones are
too expensive for me) and want ECC memory so I think I have a very
little mobos' choice (C20X / Bromolow).

* So what do you mean by "I would pass on the Sandy Bridge now" and
"wait for the next batch at the end of the year" ?

* Do you have an information about the next release of motherboards ?
Click to expand...

I didn't write this. And getting the E3-1275 right now is just fine
as far as I'm concerned.

If you ask on the 2cpu.com forums, they may be able to tell you of
other sources of the Tyan motherboards.

HTH,
Paul
 
C

Castor Nageur

I didn't write this. And getting the E3-1275 right now is just fine
as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

I am sorry, I replied/asked to you instead of Pennywise.
If you ask on the 2cpu.com forums, they may be able to tell you of
other sources of the Tyan motherboards.
Click to expand...

I am going to do it.
Thanks for your advice.
 
C

Castor Nageur

I posted my request but it seems that nobody could help me on the 2cpu
forums.
Anyway, I succeeded in contacting the French company LDLC.
Here is the product's reference:

http://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00115676.html

In facts, they never store this motherboard because the demand is very
low. They just order when you order and you have to wait for a minimum
of 2 weeks before can get it.
The European demand seems to be very low for that kind of product. The
hotliner told me that they only had one ordered in 6 months.

Moreover, he explains me that it is difficult for them to order Tyan
products (I suppose this is because of the low demand again !).
 
P

Paul

Castor said:
I posted my request but it seems that nobody could help me on the 2cpu
forums.
Anyway, I succeeded in contacting the French company LDLC.
Here is the product's reference:

http://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00115676.html

In facts, they never store this motherboard because the demand is very
low. They just order when you order and you have to wait for a minimum
of 2 weeks before can get it.
The European demand seems to be very low for that kind of product. The
hotliner told me that they only had one ordered in 6 months.

Moreover, he explains me that it is difficult for them to order Tyan
products (I suppose this is because of the low demand again !).
Click to expand...

If you have a lot of money to waste, you could investigate one of these.
I notice it uses C206, has ECC, uses Xeon. You'll pay a significant
premium for the privilege of owning one.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4668/hp-z210-sff-workstation-serious-power-in-cramped-quarters

Paul
 
C

Castor Nageur

If you have a lot of money to waste, you could investigate one of these.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of money and that's why I want to
build a reliable but cheap configuration using ECC memory. That's also
why I want to build my system myself.

You wrote this when I asked about the ASUS board:
You can check the download page, and see if a new BIOS is available.
If the BIOS has release notes, it may even indicate if changes
have been made in the ECC area.
Click to expand...

I downloaded the Tyan S5512 motherboard manual and read the BIOS
section.
Unfortunately and like it is with ASUS, there is no ECC entry in the
Tyan BIOS.

* I know Tyan is a very reliable brand (ASUS is quite reliable too) so
how can you be sure that the Tyan S5512 board really uses your ECC
memory feature without a BIOS notification ?

* Does Tyan provide some diagnostic tools which can simulate/detect
ECC errors ? Could MemTest86+ detect ECC is working ?
 
P

Paul

Castor said:
Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of money and that's why I want to
build a reliable but cheap configuration using ECC memory. That's also
why I want to build my system myself.

You wrote this when I asked about the ASUS board:


I downloaded the Tyan S5512 motherboard manual and read the BIOS
section.
Unfortunately and like it is with ASUS, there is no ECC entry in the
Tyan BIOS.

* I know Tyan is a very reliable brand (ASUS is quite reliable too) so
how can you be sure that the Tyan S5512 board really uses your ECC
memory feature without a BIOS notification ?

* Does Tyan provide some diagnostic tools which can simulate/detect
ECC errors ? Could MemTest86+ detect ECC is working ?
Click to expand...

In a quick search, I can see AMD offers an ECC error injection tool for
AMD processors. I don't see an equivalent function offered by Intel
for their processors. Perhaps I'm using the wrong search terms.

(An example showing AMD cares...)
http://wwwd.amd.com/AMD/SReleaseF.n...87257825005c0eb7/$FILE/ECC_MEM_TOOL_1_0_3.ZIP

You could investigate how Linux handles ECC, and whether Linux has
a utility or monitor that allows error injection. You could do a quick
Linux install, load a package used for EDAC monitoring or testing,
and test that way. Linux gives an alternative to the regular
Windows ecosystem, and their idea of a solution might be better
than the lack of solution I see from Intel. I haven't investigated
all the details, but at least someone in the Linux world thought about
the problem.

Obviously, for error injection to work, there has to be an injection
function in the processor, in some register. At work, we had a department
that did nothing but add mechanical injection points (solder wires onto
hardware and then test whether faults were detected or not), but nobody
wants to do that on hardware they expect to use for a purpose. The people
doing that testing, generally made a mess of the hardware they were given
(as a lot of soldering was required).

I took a look through the E3 processor datasheets (volume 1 and volume 2)
and can't find an error injection function. I searched on the word ECC
and it didn't seem to be discussed. It has to be there, somewhere...
Maybe it just isn't documented.

As for the topic of ECC in general, it's poorly handled. Any time this
kind of discussion comes up, the same problems arise - little visible
feedback, poor tool support, poor documentation, almost like ECC
isn't important. As a user, you have to be pretty motivated, to
spend the time verifying it all works.

Paul
 
C

Castor Nageur

Again, thanks very much for your precious advices.
(An example showing AMD cares...)http://wwwd.amd.com/AMD/SReleaseF.nsf/85a5bd877288a89c87256f330051687...
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see that AMD cares about ECC.
Moreover, it seems that nearly all the recent AMD CPU handle ECC
memory.
You could investigate how Linux handles ECC, and whether Linux has
a utility or monitor that allows error injection. You could do a quick
Linux install, load a package used for EDAC monitoring or testing,
Click to expand...

I investigated and did not find any EDAC support for the C20x chipset
(Bromolow platform) in their wiki whereas most recent AMD platforms
are supported by EDAC.
I took a look through the E3 processor datasheets (volume 1 and volume 2)
and can't find an error injection function.
Click to expand...

So I finally decided not to go for the Tyan S5512 motherboard : it's
very hard & long (& expensive) for me to get it and AMD which is
cheaper supports ECC much better than Intel.
ECC is the most important thing for me : I already had the problem 2
times and I had a lot of corrupted data each time.

I will probably go for a system based on an AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
processor.
 
Top