About modify HP Pavilion Elite m9040n

[T. T.]

Dear all, I just purchased a HP m9040n recently, spec is here:

http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-pavilion-elite-m9040n/4505-3118_7-32592298.html

As this PC came with a 256MB Nvidia GeForce 8400GS video card which
only support ONE monitor, as I really need the dual monitor setup, so
I'm thinking of upgrading the video card on this one. Quick questions:

1. This PC only came with a 300 Watt Power Supply, with such limited
power what kind of video card I could use (best performance/price
ratio) for such a power supply?

2. I'm not sure whether the motherboard is ATX or microATX, it seems
that the motherboard was made by ASUS. Could I easily swap a switching
power supply (replace it with a 600+ Watt one) easily? Does all the
recent power supply all has the same form factor, and would it fit
with this PC case (HP Pavillion)?

3. If #2 is yes, which switching power supply you would recommend and
what video card I could get (under US$150) for the best performance/
price ratio?

I don't play much games, but I do need to have a video card that is
running fast enough and could support to 24" LCD monitor (mostly for
video editing, web browsing, programming work, Photoshop, etc.)

Thanks

 

[Paul]

Dear all, I just purchased a HP m9040n recently, spec is here:

http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-pavilion-elite-m9040n/4505-3118_7-32592298.html

As this PC came with a 256MB Nvidia GeForce 8400GS video card which
only support ONE monitor, as I really need the dual monitor setup, so
I'm thinking of upgrading the video card on this one. Quick questions:

1. This PC only came with a 300 Watt Power Supply, with such limited
power what kind of video card I could use (best performance/price
ratio) for such a power supply?

2. I'm not sure whether the motherboard is ATX or microATX, it seems
that the motherboard was made by ASUS. Could I easily swap a switching
power supply (replace it with a 600+ Watt one) easily? Does all the
recent power supply all has the same form factor, and would it fit
with this PC case (HP Pavillion)?

3. If #2 is yes, which switching power supply you would recommend and
what video card I could get (under US$150) for the best performance/
price ratio?

I don't play much games, but I do need to have a video card that is
running fast enough and could support to 24" LCD monitor (mostly for
video editing, web browsing, programming work, Photoshop, etc.)

Thanks

As I read it, the video card faceplate has DVI, HDMI, S-video

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsuppor...c=us&objectID=c01154933&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

You can get an HDMI to DVI-D adapter plug, to change the form factor
of the second connector. (These come in DVI to HDMI and HDMI to DVI
plugs, and you should check the one you're getting is the right
type.) Note that the output is DVI-D, and slapping a DVI to VGA connector
on the end of this, won't deliver VGA. Since it is DVI-D, just the
digital part is working. As far as I know, HDMI doesn't have any
VGA signals on it, like a DVI-I video card connector would.

SYBA SD-HMM-DVF HDMI to DVI-D Adapter - Retail $10
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186019

Regarding video card upgrades, there are some things to check.

1) You already caught the power issue.

2) Some prebuilt computers now, are shoe boxes, and are too small
for many of the higher end video cards. Even my current computer
case, I think I'd need to take a hack saw, and cut some metal
off one of my drive racks, to make room for a decent video card.
Whether this is an issue, really depends on how clever the
manufacturer was. A computer case can be small, but if they
left a gap in the neighborhood of the video card slot, in
fact there might be tons of room. You'll have to look inside
the case, and see what kind of a mess it is.

The 300W power supply could be an issue, and to start, you need to
read the label on it. Video cards love to gulp down amps on the 12VDC
rail. It could be, that HP has made that rail a little bigger, making
the power supply a better fit for an upgrade.

Things I see in the box:

1) Q6600. Two versions are available. 95W and 105W. An example here.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SL9UM

105W/12V * (1/0.90) = 9.72 amps at 12V (Vcore conversion 90% efficiency)

2) Motherboard chipset and RAM - 50W from various rails (not the 12V).

3) Two hard drives. 12V @ 0.6A and 5V @ 1A each, idle current (some are now lower)

4) Optical drive. 12V @ 1.5A and 5V @ 1.5A each. Check label in case they
cared to actually rate it. This number is just a rough estimate and it
could be higher. 12V is only drawn when media is present.

5) Cooling fans. I allocate 12V @ 0.5A, and sometimes the label on the fan
or fans, have details.

There is some more junk in the box, but I have no idea what kind of numbers
to use. Generally speaking, PCI cards could use 1W to 3W chips, so this
won't make a lot of difference. And the power probably doesn't come from
12V.

That is about 12V @ 13A so far. Now you check the label on the supply, and
see how many amps it has available. If it is dual rail, the CPU is on
the 12V2 rail, so HP was probably careful to have at least a 10A rating
on the 12V2 rail. 12V1 rail is used for the rest (including the video card).

For a total power limitations calculation, I'd include

12V * 13A (12V loads) = 156W
50W for motherboard/ram/junk = 50W
10W for +5VSB loads (USB) = 10W
5*1A*2+5*1.5A drives = 17.5W
-------------------- ------
Total so far = 233.5W

So if there weren't any current flow limitations, we've got 300 - 233.5 = 66.5W
left. That leaves out quite a few nice video cards. (scroll down to diagram)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-radeon-hd4850_14.html

Even an 8800GT is a little too high. (scroll down to diagram)
The 8600GTS looks OK.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/gainward-bliss-8800gt_5.html

There are a few more candidates here.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/gigabyte-radeonhd3870-3850_5.html

ATX power supplies are standard in two dimensions, and non-standard in the
third dimension. For the super-high-power ATX supplies, they allow them
to get longer. But the part that fits with the four screws, on the rear
of the computer, should be a standard size. If you check the Newegg
listings, you can probably get dimensions if needed. Sometimes a long supply
won't fit, because everything is squeezed in. AFAIK, the supplies HP uses
now are standard, but you could check the color codes on the wiring to
be sure. (Cable colors are listed here.)

http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf

So the video card could either be current limited by your existing
supply (i.e. 12V1 @ ??? amps). Or it can be power limited, by my
sample calc of only 66.5 watts or so left.

If you get another supply, make sure it has enough PCI Express power
connectors for whatever is on the video card. Some cards have two
aux connectors on the end of the video card, for example.

Cards which occupy a double slot, and exhaust hot air out the second
PCI slot cover, will improve your cooling. But considering the box
already has some add-in cards present, there may not be room for a
double slot card.

For performance, try the charts here. Click the "View all products",
to get a larger chart. Ignore the "SLI" and "CF" entries, as they are
for two cards in tandem. The 8400 GS is near the bottom of the chart.
The 8600 GTS is about four times the card as the 8400 GS. Select the
benchmark type from the drop-down list.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/graphics-cards/3dmark06-v1-0-2-hdr-sm3-0-score,538.html

There is another powering concept available. You can add a second
power supply, of a special type. How these work, is the second
supply ("booster"), monitors the output of the first supply.
When the first supply comes on, the second one starts up.
The "booster" sits in a drive tray. This one is designed for
SLI or Crossfire, in the sense that it has two separate 12V outputs.
The AC power cord for it, comes out to a PCI slot bracket. (You
may have to find another way to route that wire.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104054

Dimensions 205*149*42 8"x5.9"x1.65"
http://www.fspgroupusa.com/PC_RETAIL/BOOSTERX5/BOOSTERX5.html

I expect the two 40mm fans would drive you crazy.
http://www.fspgroupusa.com/PC_RETAIL/E_BROCHURE/BoosterX5.pdf

It is one 12V output, and that would be plugged into the
aux connector(s) on the end of your video card. 12V @ 37.5A max.
That would be enough for any single video card you could find.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-104-054-09.jpg

FSP group should have prepared a document like this, for the BoosterX5,
and this is for the older 300W design (which would likely still be
enough). With this sitting in the drive tray, if there is a door over
the front of the tray area, you'd want to leave the door open (for
cooling air input).

http://www.fspgroupusa.com/PC_RETAIL/BOOSTERX3/TECH/BOOSTERX3SPEC.pdf

So there is another option besides another power supply, even if
price wise it is just as easy to buy a whole ATX supply instead.

HTH,
Paul

 

[T. T.]

Hi Paul and JR, you guys are simply awesome! Thanks so much for your
help! I really appreciate that.

OK for now I guess my question is, if I'm not going to change my PSU,
guess maybe I should go with a 8600GTS? Performance wise (and I do
play flight sims from time to time, like MS Flight Simulator), how
much performance gain would I get to switch from a 8400GS to a
8600GTS? Any rough idea? Many thanks!

 

[Paul]

Hi Paul and JR, you guys are simply awesome! Thanks so much for your
help! I really appreciate that.

OK for now I guess my question is, if I'm not going to change my PSU,
guess maybe I should go with a 8600GTS? Performance wise (and I do
play flight sims from time to time, like MS Flight Simulator), how
much performance gain would I get to switch from a 8400GS to a
8600GTS? Any rough idea? Many thanks!

Here is a line posted from my answer.

"The 8600 GTS is about four times the card as the 8400 GS."

I guess that means my answer was a bit too long

Paul

 

[T. T.]

Hi Paul, no I don't think your answer was too long. I think it was my
bad that I didn't catch that at the first place (which was why I
pulled that posting 10 minutes later as I noticed this later when I
read it the 2nd time).

Hmm.. btw according to the HP site, the Q6600 CPU in m9040n is 95W,
not sure if I could verify this though (thoughts or comments?).

So I'm thinking of getting this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150250

However after reading the review of this video card (XFS GeForce 8600
GTS 512MB 128-bit), people was saying that you HAVE TO use the power
adapter, will I run into problem with this issue? Thoughts or
comments?

Maybe I should just upgrade both my PSU and my video card at the same
time...

 

[Paul]

Hi Paul, no I don't think your answer was too long. I think it was my
bad that I didn't catch that at the first place (which was why I
pulled that posting 10 minutes later as I noticed this later when I
read it the 2nd time).

Hmm.. btw according to the HP site, the Q6600 CPU in m9040n is 95W,
not sure if I could verify this though (thoughts or comments?).

So I'm thinking of getting this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150250

However after reading the review of this video card (XFS GeForce 8600
GTS 512MB 128-bit), people was saying that you HAVE TO use the power
adapter, will I run into problem with this issue? Thoughts or
comments?

Maybe I should just upgrade both my PSU and my video card at the same
time...

In the product pictures, a "two Molex to one PCI Express" power cable
is included with the product. The +12V will still be coming from 12V1,
because 12V1 is used for everything except the processor (which is
on 12V2). You still have to check the label on the power supply, and
see whether you're exceeding the ampere rating. (There are two limits to stay
under, the total watts for the supply, and the 12V1/12V2 current output.)
Before adding in the new video card loading, your 12V1 was at about 3.2 amps,
and the new video card will draw current on top of that. The label on the
supply may state the 12V1 limit.

As I explained in the power estimate section, there are 95W and 105W processors.
I worked numbers based on the 105W, just to be safe. It means you've
earned back 10W/0.9 = 11.1W more power. So now you have 66.5 + 11.1 = 77.6W
for video as an estimate. (That doesn't materially change the answer,
just leaves a bit more room for the 300W power supply to survive.)

The flow of 12V power to a video card, comes from two sources. The
PCI Express x16 slot has power pins up near one end. The video card
designer might draw up to 4 amps at 12V, from the 12V slot pins.

PCI Express power connectors (6 pin or 8 pin) may also be included on
the card. For example, if the card needed 12V @ 4A, a designer might
manage to split the current, drawing 2 amps from the slot pins, and
another 2 amps from the PCI Express 2x3 connector. That leads to conservative
current loading, in terms of damaging pins or connectors. And in an
example like that, if you were using an adapter cable for power, probably
even a single 1x4 Molex disk drive connector, feeding the 2x3 PCI
Express power, would be enough. If you have the disk drive connectors
to spare, you can use both of them if you want, when using the
included adapter cable in the video card box.

(Middle cable)
http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/14-150-250-11.jpg

It is really better, if the power supply already includes a 2x3
power connector, if available. Don't use the adapter cable unless you
are forced to. For example, now that I've looked a bit closer at that
adapter cable, what is the deal with the red wires ? It looks like they've
wired +5V to the PCI Express 2x3 ??? A PCI Express should be (3) 12V
yellow wires and (3) black ground wires. You can see an example documented
here on page 2.

http://www.pcpower.com/downloads/750_Quad_new_5YR_lr_3863.pdf

Paul

 

[Fishface]

Before you buy, crack the case and make a few measurements to ensure
the card and PSU you select will fit. Some of the small cases leave little
room for big cards.

Note also that the power connectors are frequently placed on the end of the
video card, which adds at least an inch to the effective length. It'd be nice if
they actually told you the measurements of the cards instead of having to
extrapolate the length from pictures. I see that they have put the two six-pin
PCI-E power connectors on the side of this 55nM 9800GTX+ card instead of
the end, which was thoughtful, but it still one very long card.
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130376

If you are going to get a new power supply, I would definitely ditch the 8600GTS
if you can fit something bigger. Here's a chart which shows relative performance
of various cards:
www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-cards,1965-6.html

The rest of that article will likely be of interest, but the card size might be the
ultimate determining factor. Even the 9600GT, which is only a little more
expensive, is quite a bit faster:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nvidia-9600gt-review.ars/2

 

[T. T.]

Hi Paul, regarding your reply of:

"You can get an HDMI to DVI-D adapter plug, to change the form factor
of the second connector. (These come in DVI to HDMI and HDMI to DVI
plugs, and you should check the one you're getting is the right
type.) Note that the output is DVI-D, and slapping a DVI to VGA
connector
on the end of this, won't deliver VGA. Since it is DVI-D, just the
digital part is working. As far as I know, HDMI doesn't have any
VGA signals on it, like a DVI-I video card connector would.

SYBA SD-HMM-DVF HDMI to DVI-D Adapter - Retail $10
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186019"

As this is the cheapest way to do it, so I went ahead and ordered one
(HDMI to DVI-D adapter). I'm sad to report back to the forum that it
won't fit. The adapter works great, but as the DVI-D and the HDMI
connectors on the video card (nvidia 8400) are positioned too close to
each other, so after I applied the HDMI to DVI-D adapter, I won't be
able to connect the other DVI-D connector to the 2nd monitor.

Just a quick FYI for people who are thinking about going this solution.