A64 3000+ K8T800 or P4 630 i925X based system?

[tluxon]

I've been reading posts saying I'd get more bang-for-the-buck with a
AMD setup than a similarly priced Intel setup, so I'm looking int
it

The CPU/board combinations I listed in the subject line seem to b
similarly priced as near as I can tell. However, when I compare the
a
http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=64&model2=112&chart=21
it looks like they perform pretty equally with games and the P4 63
finishes quite a bit higher than the A64 3000+ on video encoding

Also, what's the difference between socket 754 and 939

Again, I've always been an Intel guy but am looking for an excuse t
switch to AMD. Can someone please explain this to me

Thanks

Ti

 

[John]

I've been reading posts saying I'd get more bang-for-the-buck with an
AMD setup than a similarly priced Intel setup, so I'm looking into
it.

The CPU/board combinations I listed in the subject line seem to be
similarly priced as near as I can tell. However, when I compare them
at
http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=64&model2=112&chart=21,
it looks like they perform pretty equally with games and the P4 630
finishes quite a bit higher than the A64 3000+ on video encoding.

Also, what's the difference between socket 754 and 939?

Again, I've always been an Intel guy but am looking for an excuse to
switch to AMD. Can someone please explain this to me?

Well right now if you read the review sites they seem to be in favor
of the AMDs over intel which tend to be power hungry and run hot.
It more of a problem with Prescotts,

AMD when switching from the AMD athlon 32 bit XP series introed two
sockets for the AMD 64 chips and their similar to XP budget like the
Semprons.

The sockets at the time were 754 the mass produced socket for AMD 64
and semprons and the 940 which needed ECC memory which was much more
expensive all around - motherboards , CPUs and memory.

They then came out with the 939 which included some of the features of
940 like dual memory at a lower cost. The 939 is the current standard
now and takes everything from semprons to AMD 64s. The 754 socket is
going to be phases out. That doesnt mean its bad since you can get it
at a lower price sometimes but not always so. However it doesnt have
dual mem (not that big of a deal) , will be phased out maybe next
year or so and so far no dual core X2 AMD chips are available for it
and probably wont. The 939 socket boards being newer have PCI ex
video slots and PCI ex card slots and a few older PCI slots. The 754
has the older familiar AGP video slots and PCI slots.


Right now 939s have been out since Jan so they can be very low like
the one I have the chaintech vnf4 ultra which is as low as $79. So the
avg 754 socket deal is probably no better than the lower 939 prices
but sometimes there are big clearance sales on the 754. Id only get a
754 if it was way lower than a 939 which I did get - I paid about
$270 or so for a 939 combo 3000 early in the year and got a 754 Compaq
barebones system for $109 recently 3200 .

The next big thing is dual core , INTEL supposedly has the cheapest
one at less than 200 bucks and AMD their cheapest is the X2 AMD 3800
generally for $360 . The AMD is rated higher once again and does a
good job in video the weakest area for AMD traditionally. In fact at
some sites AMD beats the INTEL. And INTEL at pricewatch seems to be
selling for much higher than the magazines list so it makes it even
less attractive.


The thing is I think INTEL knows this --- as sites like ANANDTECH
really are down on intel , so theres optimistic claims of INTELs next
gen chips made on a 65 process which are said to run cooler and have
huge cache sizes may come out early next year. So that may change the
whole equation. AMD also plans to come out with the M2 which uses a
different socket and DDR2 mem maybe the end of next year.

In the review at the time the 3800 was $380 and the 830 D I think was
sub $300 the main thing going for it. However if you check now
they are virtually the same price $332 AMD at Monarch and $325 for the
Pent 830 D so if thats true I guess the choice is overwhelmingly for
the AMD in the dual core and single core ranges since in other reviews
they and other sites favor the AMDs .

With the single core 3000 venice cores they OC a fair amount so thats
a consideration even though they may lag a bit on some benchmarks vs
the 630.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-3000_4.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

Anandtech review of the budget X2 AMD 3800


Final Words

There's not much to say here other than that the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ is
the clear choice for any user at this price point. What you give up
in single threaded performance is more than made up for by the
improvements in multitasking and multithreaded application
performance.

Bit by bit, AMD is eating away at any possible recommendation that
we'd have for the Pentium D. While the Pentium D 820 is still our
recommendation at the sub-$300 mark, if your budget can handle it,
we'd strongly recommend going for the Athlon 64 X2 3800+.

As for overclocking, we had no problems reaching 2.46GHz with our
Athlon 64 3800+ sample using standard air cooling. The overclocking
wasn't as impressive as what we saw with the Toledo based Athlon 64
4200+, but we will save a final conclusion on overclocking until we
get more Manchester based processors in house.

We really didn't want to see AMD become a more expensive CPU
manufacturer, and with the X2 3800+, we finally have a more sensibly
priced dual core option. The choice is clear - the Athlon 64 X2 3800+
is better in every way than the Pentium D 830. For Intel's sake in
the enthusiast community, Conroe had better be very competitive next
year - because ever since Prescott, the Pentium 4 has been an utter
disappointment.

 

[John]

The next big thing is dual core , INTEL supposedly has the cheapest
one at less than 200 bucks

I meant $300 not $200.

 

[tluxon]

Thanks for the helpful and informative reply, John

As far as my budget goes, this is our 4th PC for a family of 4 and I'
not sure I should go all out on it. I was thinking a good price poin
for decent performance would be about $175 for the CPUs. Both of th
CPUs I listed can be had for under $174 at ZipZoomFly.com

I'd be surprised if the PC in consideration will ever be overclocke
(or at least not until our 9yr old takes full responsibility for it)
as our boys use it more for internet stuff and my oldest boy wants t
use if for Lego Digital Designer

I'm considering this because I was trying to extend the life of a Asu
P2B-F P3 550MHz -based system. I discovered the power supply couldn'
support a Radeon 9800 Pro I have (which would be way overkill for th
system) and the motherboard didn't have the PCI rev.2.2 slots
needed for a wireless NIC. I just want to put something intelligen
together that'll be bulletproof and not require any of m
troubleshooting time

So if I decide to stick with a P4 630 it'll be mostly because I'
familiar with Intel products. I have a concern with how hot the CP
runs, but I thought Intel had slightly mitigated some of the hea
issues with the 600 series processors. It sounds like you're sayin
that's not quite true. I have a number of friends that always bu
Dell computers and some of them are using 600 series processors an
don't say anything about problems with heat. Is it because they jus
don't know? Or has Dell incorporated extra cooling in their system
to negate the issue of heat in their systems? Or perhaps this hea
is only a factor when using 100% CPU time for extended periods o
time

I like everything I've read about AMD and their widespread use in th
overclocking community and will give it serious consideration whe
upgrading my current computer. I'm just not as sure if it's the bes
direction to go for upgrading the family's #4 PC that probably won'
be overclocked and I don't really want to put more time into

Thanks for any advice you can provide at this lower price point

Ti

 

[kony]

I'd be surprised if the PC in consideration will ever be overclocked
(or at least not until our 9yr old takes full responsibility for it),
as our boys use it more for internet stuff and my oldest boy wants to
use if for Lego Digital Designer.

I'm considering this because I was trying to extend the life of a Asus
P2B-F P3 550MHz -based system. I discovered the power supply couldn't
support a Radeon 9800 Pro I have (which would be way overkill for the
system) and the motherboard didn't have the PCI rev.2.2 slots I
needed for a wireless NIC. I just want to put something intelligent
together that'll be bulletproof and not require any of my
troubleshooting time.

It sounds like you're going overboard. The described uses
will run fine with a Celeron-D, and after a year you'd have
lost most of the value of the P4 anyway.

So if I decide to stick with a P4 630 it'll be mostly because I'm
familiar with Intel products. I have a concern with how hot the CPU
runs, but I thought Intel had slightly mitigated some of the heat
issues with the 600 series processors. It sounds like you're saying
that's not quite true.

It's not at all true. There is no "fix" for the problem
because it's inherant in the design of the P4 and process
size. For a cooler CPU made by intel you'd want a
Pentium-M.

I have a number of friends that always buy
Dell computers and some of them are using 600 series processors and
don't say anything about problems with heat. Is it because they just
don't know?

That is possible, but more likely, they only use the system
modestly rather than ever having it at full load for any
extended period of time. Indeed, your son probably won't
either, but for the games. Right now it may be "Lego
Digital Designer", but there may be more demanding games
today or tomorrow too. On the other hand that is also a
reason to go with a P4 instead of Celeron, but ultimately,
either is hot-running per the performance.

I tend to think your "comfort" level with Intel systems is a
bit irrelevant. There's no particular difference, you just
install the board same way, install CPU and heatsink
(similar enough), install software and there you are.
That's not to knock an Intel purchase if that's what you
want, but for games and lower heat an Athlon 64 is the
better choice.

Or has Dell incorporated extra cooling in their systems
to negate the issue of heat in their systems?

Definitely not. Dell uses basic time-tested cooling
strategies with median grade parts. It works, but not a lot
of margin because better heatsinks cost more and most people
don't think about a heatsink when reading the Dell spec
sheet, so it's a hidden cost they want to avoid.

Or perhaps this heat
is only a factor when using 100% CPU time for extended periods of
time?

I should read ahead more often.
Yes, but likewise, at any given load it'll also be a bit
hotter and use more power (energy). If power use isn't a
concern then only the issue of full load needs considered.
i'm not suggesting it will overheat, necessarily, but you do
want to keep an eye on dust buildup and operation in a room
with high ambient temp might be best avoided with Dell (or
any OEM for that matter) cooling solution.

I like everything I've read about AMD and their widespread use in the
overclocking community and will give it serious consideration when
upgrading my current computer.

It doesn't really have to do with overclocking, one can o'c
a P4 too if they like. It just happens that those most
sensative to the performance gains of overclocking, also
appreciate what the CPU is before it's overclocked too.

With either CPU, the best o'c is by raising the FSB, and
memory bus, requiring good high-end memory too. That
strategy is quite attainable on either platform, providing
the motherboard you select has the headroom and features to
facilitate it, but of course to get as much o'c out of a P4,
at a certain point the heat is a real issue to combat with a
water-cooler or other exotic means.

I'm just not as sure if it's the best
direction to go for upgrading the family's #4 PC that probably won't
be overclocked and I don't really want to put more time into.

If you're looking to upgrade your system too, why not just
hand it down to your son and get yourself a new one instead?

I didn't mean to "push" overclocking, but it's a personal
choice, and you need not go overboard doing so if you
decided to. Some aim for 30% or more o'c, and that may not
be warranted but a lesser % is still a real gain in some
situations. Even so, for the described uses, certainly any
modern CPU is going to be fast enough without o'c.

 

[John]

As far as my budget goes, this is our 4th PC for a family of 4 and I'm
not sure I should go all out on it. I was thinking a good price point
for decent performance would be about $175 for the CPUs. Both of the
CPUs I listed can be had for under $174 at ZipZoomFly.com.

I like everything I've read about AMD and their widespread use in the
overclocking community and will give it serious consideration when
upgrading my current computer. I'm just not as sure if it's the best
direction to go for upgrading the family's #4 PC that probably won't
be overclocked and I don't really want to put more time into.

Im mixing up the 820 and 830 up in that post as you can tell - posting
late at night or early in the morn.

Frankly I havent bought an INTEL in ages, Ive switched back in forth
usually because one firm has the lead with OCeable cheaper CPUs. The
last INTEL I had was an old celeron that had a super OC rep but
siwtched back to AMD even with their hot Tbirds and then went with the
super OCeable Bartons and then the AMD 64. So Im not really into the
INTELs as much but get whatever you are comfortable with.

I didnt like INTEL before because they were having some problems with
heat and they used more expensive mem but I think DDR2 has really
fallen in price and if AMD switches to M2s with DDR2 than the old
memory will become obsolete.

The heat thing is exaggerated a lot. A lot of people bring it up in
relation to AMDs past rep of running hot with Tbirds etc sure they run
hot but its not like the PC blows up or anything, If they didnt work
they wouldnt sell them but it does use more power and usually limits
OCeable.

For me the price is the mainthing. If you can get a 754 socket AMD for
far less than anything else than Id get that or the Intel or the 939.

As Kony says if its the family PC your needs sound really modest but I
tend to think you should get a bit of leeway anyway especially if
something much more powerful gets into the sweet spot in pricing where
its not really that expensive then might as well go for it.

The best deal is probably the FRYs combo deal or some other combo deal
where they sell the 754 socket AMD 64 for cheap. That probably would
be the best deal for the family PC. Shouldnt be a problem at all
except in the sense that FRYs almost always bundles ECS MBs one of the
cheapest makers of boards for the combos so that may or may not cause
problems but a lot of people buy these and claim they are OK.


754 socket 3200 AMD 64 with ECS MB $159
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4495406?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
939 socket 3500 AMD 64 VIA chipset ECS MB $209
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4590577?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

If you have a decent case get the $39 430 watt Antec on sale at
COMPUSA after rebate.

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=332357&pfp=SEARCH


After that it depends on what you have already. If you have an AGP
video card that you can carry over then the above are AGP. If you get
an nforce4 939 board itll be PCI ex totally different video slot
card.

The second one 939 board with the via chipset is kind of unusual if
the info is right --- claims to have BOTH slots.

1 x PCI Express x16 slot
1 x AGP Express slot

The second big thing is what kind of memory do you have now? If you
have 3200 DDR then you can carry it over to the new AMD system and it
doesnt cost you a thing.

The above would be more than enough for your needs.
But like i said the ECS boards are not top of the line quality boards
though I havent heard massive problems posted about the FRYs deals
which tons of people seem to buy. You can find lots of cheap
mainsrream boards now but FRYs deals they essentially throw in the MB
for virtually free.


754 combo above 3200 AMD $159
New PS Antec $ 39

Memory one stick of
DDR 3200 512 $32
Afrter rebate at CC
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/King...08887/catOid/-12994/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
Add to basket to see real price

ATI 9600 Pro 256 AGP $68
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102305
------------------------
$300 or so plus shipping and tax

Use your old KB , mouse etc.

Nov and Dec the best sales months in the US are coming up so you can
probably get close to freebie deals on KB, Mice etc

Cases - if you need one there are lots of cheap cases but Antec has
been on sale almost every other week , their cheaper smaller cases
with 350 watt or so PSes for 39-49 after rebate.


The 9600 Pro people claim will actually play al lthe games out in OK
fashion. You say all you do is play Legos or something then this would
be more than enough even if you wanted to play better games in the
near future. If you think you wont upgrade for a long time and may
actually play better games later and dont mind spending more the 9800
/pro , 6600/GT, 6800/LE are better deals probably.

Compare the above with the total cost of a new INTEL build you are
thinking about and if you dont mind spending more for the INTEL and
are stuck on it then go with the Intel if not go with the AMD. Either
way the dual cores are out, M2s and new gen INTELs may be out next
year so whatever you get will be outdated anyway next year or so
though itll be powerful enough to run any software out now.and the
forseeable future.

 

[tluxon]

Thanks for all the great input

I'm not too excited about buying a questionable (cheap) motherboard.
I don't mind paying another $30 or $40 to get one that's more certai
to be rock solid. I've always favored ASUS and Abit

I haven't decided for sure on whether to upgrade the power supply onl
or just replace the case with something similar to my Antec Sonat
that already has a decent power supply in it

I'm curious about the new 64-bit Semprons. For this PC's computin
needs, they just might offer a good price/performance point. An
thoughts o
these

 

[John]

Based on what I read in the xbit review on the socket 939 Sempron64,
I'm pretty sure I'd prefer a socket 939 board over a
soon-to-be-phased-out socket 754.

What are the reputable chipsets and how should I decide between them
if I have any choice?

Both are OK. The two main rivals I guess would be VIA and NVIDIA
nforce4 for 939 and Nforce3 generally for 754. There are some other
chipsets too but I like to stick to nforce by nvidia generally but I
wouldnt mind getting a VIA .

VIA was getting really big a while ago and there was talk that they
might really make a move in the INTEL world and dominate the AMD
world, But then Nvidia came in really strong and VIA was tagged as
being buggy after some problems with a VIA chipset years ago. I had
MBs with VIA chipsets for several systems until I switched to nvidia.
Nvidia frankly had bugs too but I prefer Nvidia cause they are super
popular and you can get drivers/support easily for their chipsets.
Thats not to say you cant for VIA. They are still popular.

I tend to avoid the far less popular chipsets.

Also, the AMD A64 3200+ Venice CPU
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535)
is some $40 less than the AMD A64 3200+ Winchester CPU
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103502).
Looking at the product specifications on Newegg I couldn't tell what
differentiates them other than the price. Can anyone help?

The Winchester is the older core . They came out with a Venice core
later which is replacing the winchester. Its not a big deal like the
754 vs 939. The win and venice are both 939s and the specs are very
close. Its just that the venice supposedly has a better memory
controller and some other improvements I think which supposedly lets
them overclock better. When the 939s came out they got a rep of being
able to OC really well , along with the Sempron 3100 754 socket. The
earlier 754 sockets didnt have that rep - as great Ocers. However I
mentioned one more recent 754 that posters claim can be OCed very well
that OEM mobile version. Anyway , there was lots of hype about how
great they OCed but some said it was good but exaggerated as the mem
controller on the chip had some problems and other factors that
llimited the OC max lower than the hype claimed. It was still very
good but not as high as some reviews claimed some posters said. Well
AMD came out with these Venice cores with SSE3 , improved mem
controller etc which improved max OCeability.

So obviously the venice should sell higher I would think since they
are phasing the Winchester out. So it could be some bizarre pricing
anamoly which you see sometimes especially when they are phasing a
product out. Or its possible someone knows something I dont know like
some weird claim the wincesters being phased out have some special
advantages so are being bid up by hot demand. I havent heard anything
though. But there are these rumors on things. For instance the X2 dual
core 3800s AMDs cheapest dual core. They are supposed to be Manchester
cores a new core for the dual which reduces cache etc to lower cost.
However some said some of the early ones were Toledo cores the more
expensive core used on the higher end chips. Some places were pointing
this out and selling them a bit higher because of their alleged higher
OCeability and I guess cache if it was enabled.

On the other hand, if I could find one of these new socket 939
Sempron64s, I think I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Anybody have an idea
where these will first become available outside of the OEMs?

How long can you wait? If Xbit is right then the 3100 939s should be
out very soon --- I would think they would want them out for Xmas
sales.

If you can get an old Northwood cheap and MB sure might as well. If
its going to cost more then I think not. Cause there are lots of cheap
options with the AMDs especially with Nov coming up. Remember Nov
Black Friday and Xmas are the two best months for sales usually.

 

[John]

Thanks for all the great input!

I'm not too excited about buying a questionable (cheap) motherboard.
I don't mind paying another $30 or $40 to get one that's more certain
to be rock solid. I've always favored ASUS and Abit.

I haven't decided for sure on whether to upgrade the power supply only
or just replace the case with something similar to my Antec Sonata
that already has a decent power supply in it.

I'm curious about the new 64-bit Semprons. For this PC's computing
needs, they just might offer a good price/performance point. Any
thoughts on
these?

I saw some reviews on the AMD64 3400 and 3300 and they are pretty
close to 3200/3000 64 chips but they have different cache sizes. The
Semprons have I think 128 and 256 , the chips above have the larger
256 size. The AMD 64 Athlons have 512 and 1 meg. It makes a difference
on certain things but in general it doesnt have a huge impact.

How much do you want to save ? Thats the mainthing.

With the semprons 3100/3300 I think Ive only seen 754 sockets at this
time and they were around $125+. The 754 socket AMD 3000 depends on
the sale obviously but I think you can get them for generally $145.

In fact if you look on Pricewatch they are all bunched together --

Socket 754 3000 & 3200 $145-150+
Socket 939 3000 & 3200 $145-150+
Sempron 3400 64 $134+

Not a huge amount of different until you get to the 3100 Sempron 64
at 95-113 bucks or so.

Right now you can get the a decent up to date board like the
Nforce4 based Chaintech VNF4Ultra $73 at newegg right now 939 socket
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...52049&ATT=Motherboards+AMD&CMP=OTC-P12ice5can
This is the board I have which if fine.

And 3000 AMD 939 $146 retail with fan
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537

Thats $250 and can be upgraded with a dual core processer later on
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A 754 socket which is very similar performance but has more limited
upgradeability in the long run - cant use dual cores. The 754s though
you can find them around I noticed at Newegg some of them like the
3000 arent being offerd in retail form. Remember they are going to
phase this socket out maybe next year.

$116 OEM - no fan/heatsink Its a mobile version meaning usage in
laptops and the claim is they run cooler and use less power so that
usually means they can overclock more. If you read the reviews at
newegg they claim thats how it is , great overclocker and it has 1 meg
of cache it says.

If you got a 14-20 buck fan/heatsink thats $136 or so.
There are lots of cheap motherboards 754 socket.
You could get this and MB from a decent make for $200-210.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Semprons

The 3100 is OK it has a smaller cache remember than the athlon 64s.
They actually look pretty close to the athlons in many benchmarks
despite the smaller cache.

Theres a 3300/3400 version out now which is about $125+ or so.
The price difference is small vs the above 754 socket 3000 OEM athlon
which people claim can overclock like crazy and has 1 meg of cache.
Id rather get that.

The big drop in price comes with the 3100 sempron 64 754 socket which
is about 105 bucks. Then you can get MB and processor with a
inexpensive namebrand board for probably $170-180. But its slower than
all the combos above but decent enough. Especially for your needs.
They say it varies but the 3100 can be a monster overclocker though
theres some variablity with some doing OK OCs and others really
getting up there according to Xbit labs.

The interesting thing --

If you want to go 939 socket cause of the improved upgradeability path
Xbit labs says they are coming out with a 939 socket 3000 Sempron 64
bit so a $80-90 Sempron 939 3000 + 73-90 board will get you in the sub
$200 range if they do come out as claimed at around the same price as
the 754 sempron price points. Xbit says end of this year and we only
have two months left in this year.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/sempron-3000_7.html

Theres also some nforce3 939 boards listed at newegg with AGP
which surprises me. In the past I only saw nforce3 754 sockets.

 

[tluxon]

Based on what I read in the xbit review on the socket 939 Sempron64
I'm pretty sure I'd prefer a socket 939 board over
soon-to-be-phased-out socket 754

My current Intel board is an ASUS P4P800-E Deluxe, which I think i
great so I was looking for something similar in an AMD flavor an
found the ASUS A8
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131541)
It's a socket 939 board with AGP, but it has the Via K8T800 chipse
which I know nothing about

What are the reputable chipsets and how should I decide between the
if I have any choice

Also, the AMD A64 3200+ Venice CP
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535
is some $40 less than the AMD A64 3200+ Winchester CP
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103502)
Looking at the product specifications on Newegg I couldn't tell wha
differentiates them other than the price. Can anyone help

I'm starting to wonder again if I'm going to be much further ahea
going this route than just sticking with the Intel path and finding
P4 3.0GHz Northwood on eBay and coupling it with an Abit IS7 or Asu
P4P800-E (Intel 865PE chipset). As near as I can gather, performanc
isn't going to be all that far apart and the price seems to be ver
close

On the other hand, if I could find one of these new socket 93
Sempron64s, I think I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Anybody have an ide
where these will first become available outside of the OEMs

Thanks

Ti

 

[John McGaw]

I've been reading posts saying I'd get more bang-for-the-buck with an
AMD setup than a similarly priced Intel setup, so I'm looking into
it.

The CPU/board combinations I listed in the subject line seem to be
similarly priced as near as I can tell. However, when I compare them
at
http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=64&model2=112&chart=21,
it looks like they perform pretty equally with games and the P4 630
finishes quite a bit higher than the A64 3000+ on video encoding.

Also, what's the difference between socket 754 and 939?

Again, I've always been an Intel guy but am looking for an excuse to
switch to AMD. Can someone please explain this to me?

Thanks!

Tim

Pretty good timing. Today I saw new article in which both AMD and Intel
chips where run thorough various benchmarks to determine which ones give
the best "bang for the buck". The results surprised me a bit but here it
is for what it's worth:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1876770,00.asp

 

[tluxon]

Well, as much promise as the socket 939 Sempron 64 has, I think I need
to get something ordered so my kids can get back to using the upgraded
computer.

I've narrowed my choices down to two with apparently comparable
performance and on newer platforms that may survive a little longer
before being phased out. I have an AGP Radeon 9800 Pro I want to
use, so I'm looking at AGP motherboards.

The AMD configuration I'm considering will run about $240 for the CPU
and motherboard. The CPU is the AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB
512KB L2 Cache Socket 939
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535
and the motherboard is the ASUS A8V Socket 939 VIA K8T800 Pro
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131541.

The Intel configuration I'm considering runs about $270. The CPU is
the Intel P4 630 Prescott 800MHz FSB 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819116198
and the motherboard is the ASUS P5P800 Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 865PE
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131511.

Both of these configurations are 64-bit compatible. The AMD appears
to be a little stronger on graphics-intensive things like games while
the Intel seems to have the upper hand on more CPU-intensive tasks
such as video encoding. I understand the Prescott can get pretty
hot, but is it really that bad - especially with a well-ventilated
case such as the Antec Sonata?

I don't consider myself an "Intel guy" even though I've only bought
Intel processors from my very first 8088 and I don't have any
aversion to going AMD. I just want the kids' computer to be rock
solid and trouble-free and offer a potential upgrade path in the
future.

Assuming that cost is not a factor, which way should I go? Got any
other suggestions I should consider?

Thanks!

Tim

 

[John]

Well, as much promise as the socket 939 Sempron 64 has, I think I need
to get something ordered so my kids can get back to using the upgraded
computer.

I've narrowed my choices down to two with apparently comparable
performance and on newer platforms that may survive a little longer
before being phased out. I have an AGP Radeon 9800 Pro I want to
use, so I'm looking at AGP motherboards.

The AMD configuration I'm considering will run about $240 for the CPU
and motherboard. The CPU is the AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB
512KB L2 Cache Socket 939
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535
and the motherboard is the ASUS A8V Socket 939 VIA K8T800 Pro
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131541.

The Intel configuration I'm considering runs about $270. The CPU is
the Intel P4 630 Prescott 800MHz FSB 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819116198
and the motherboard is the ASUS P5P800 Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 865PE
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131511.

Assuming that cost is not a factor, which way should I go? Got any
other suggestions I should consider?

Thanks!

Tim

Well I tilt a bit more toward the AMD so you know where Im coming from
but often times the final choice is totally subjective. I would only
say that both really are more than you need from your posts. And if
the AMD is a bit cheaper that tilts it that way though not a huge
amount. Of course memory may or may not add to the gap in cost too a
bit.

The other is the Pent uses a lot more power so if you have a 300 watt
PS it may come into play as a factor. The other is there may or may
not be a lot more heat to get rid of inside your case --- right now
with 7200 rpm HDs which generate heat etc it can be a factor .

I used to use full tower cases all the time. When I first moved to
where I am parts were super high and availability wasnt that high for
many parts. Believe or not there were only mom and pop stores here
with super high prices. Only one compusa far away. It was like a big
event when a COMPUTER CITY opened something like 4-5 years ago here
and then COMPUSA finally did open here taking over CCity. I bought a
mid tower case for $140 then which want even an Antec or anything.

Anyway --- I started using mid tower cases and smaller like the Antec
1600 that was on sale at COMPUSA which is a smaller mid tower. Well
with all the IDE cables and 4 HDs crammed in there even with a far
less power CPU then the interior got hot.

Ive since gone back to full tower ANTECs have two of them. The space
between the HDs and large space inside all around except for the depth
-- makes a big difference. The new cases are deeper nowadays cause of
the extra long video cards like the 6800 and I assume 7800s.


http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2389

Pent 630 vs Pent D vs Athlon 3500 64
Anandtech Review :

We've shown the Athlon 64 to have extremely solid single threaded
performance. With the exception of our encoding tests, the Athlon 64
really can't be beat when it comes to running a single application.

My post is heavily biased towards the AMD like many review sites but
in the end its all about the persons subjective preference that tilts
them one way or another usually. Its not like anyone who chooses INTEL
is going to be disappointed. And a lot of the preference for AMD is
the OCing capability that most may not do.

Either choice you should have no problems but either choice weird
things can come up - incompatiblities, bugs etc that no one can
predict at this time. A lot has to do with the competence of the
person whether many of the small things just getting new drivers or
flashing firmware etc appears to be no problem at all or a huge
headache. I mean one obvious factor - memory incompatiblity. Most of
the time I just plop sticks in for the last 8 years and had zero
problems with AMDs and INTELS but just depending on what you happened
to get from the store and what MB you have --- you can end up with
weird mem problems. I didnt have any problems with my MBs using cheap
Kingston and PNY 3200 sticks with my AMD nforce2 and I carried over my
old sticks to my new system nforce4 AMD 64 - once again no problems
even is dual channel mode.

Well Kingston and PNY etc all the well known discount brands switched
to CL 3 different type of memory and I bought some sticks two months
ago and had lots of problems with those sticks and so did others in
other systems. Its not 90% or anything but a fair amount of people
seemed to have problems with those sticks as Ive posted. Some people
say its due to the fact some of the sticks sold are double sided which
is incompatible with some systems. I dont know if this is true or not
as I didnt note whether the 3 sticks I bought on sale from Compusa and
CC the last two were double sided. However there are these weird
random incompatibility problems that anyone might or might not have.
Along with the tons of simple problems to fix like not setting the
jumpers right on drives and not having the controller drivers when
installing WIN XP on your new system that if your competent is no big
deal but if you dont know what you are doing -- you could blame on the
system.

 

[tluxon]

I was just about to order the AMD configuration (A64 3200+ Venic
S939, Abit AV8) until I thought about that Anandtech review
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2389
one more time. Now I'm hesitating after seeing the lower scores th
AMD Venice core gets for multitasking. The reason why is that ou
computers always have 10 or 15 tasks running at any one time.
expect my kids' computer won't be all that much different unles
they're gaming on it, which probably doesn't represent a majority o
the time

I've lost interest in the P4 630 because of the heat issues and th
fact that its performance doesn't justify it being $30 more than th
A64 3200+. Another thing is that for about $220 I think I can get a
Abit IS7 motherboard and a P4 2.8C Northwood CPU, which, according t
Tom's Hardware Guide CPU Charts a
http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=63&model2=19&chart=30
should be near the equal of the A64 3200+ for multitasking duties.
The P4 2.8C Northwood would address my heat and power concerns, bu
I'm sure it will have much less upgradeability. Is that a big deal?
What direction would you go if you were looking more for multitaskin
than for gaming

 

[kony]

should be near the equal of the A64 3200+ for multitasking duties.
The P4 2.8C Northwood would address my heat and power concerns, but
I'm sure it will have much less upgradeability. Is that a big deal?
What direction would you go if you were looking more for multitasking
than for gaming?

The idea of "multitasking" is in itself not very useful. It
is necessary to consider the specific tasks.

If your tasks benefit from the P4 architecture, that's the
CPU to choose. If they don't, or if you don't know (for
most common uses), even the older Athlon XP well outperforms
the P4 in the speed ranges you're considering, let alone the
A64.

Multitasking is not in itself significant to the CPU, any
can switch tasks fine. More significant would be that you
had ample memory. Generally the primary issue is always
what the most demanding tasks are, or at least those that
need to be preformed in realtime such as gaming or actively
video-editing, rather than those jobs that can run in the
background or while you're away from the system, such as
ripping or re-encoding DVDs, or doing the video editing jobs
that are just a linear reprocessing.

If you need such realtime performance from multiple tasks,
you should choose a dual core CPU. Again the one chosen
would depend on those most demanding tasks.

 

[tluxon]

Well, I hope I didn't make a mistake I'm going to regret

I had a one time opportunity to buy an Abit IS7 and P4 3.0GHz 800MH
FSB Northwood combination for $230, but I had to decide before I sa
any replies to my previous post. If I had to do it over again I'
sure I would go the A64 3200+ route. In fact, I'm thinking abou
eBay-ing this one to cut my "losses" and going forward with the A6
3200+ Venice plan. To make my decision even more questionable,
found out that in my haste I missed pressing for the exac
identification of the "IS7" and learned that it was a
IS7E - but not until I had already paid
I'm slapping myself because I'm normally a stickler for detail and
just flat-out dropped the ball on this one. I'm hopeful that i
could still work out okay - what do you think

I have a question about the RAM. The IS7-E only has 2 DDR slots so
don't want to make a mistake on this. I'd like to start the kids ou
on 512MB of RAM to see how it does and then up them to 1GB if/when i
becomes needed. I believe I should b
able to put a single stick of 512MB PC3200 DDR400 dual channel memor
in there add another one later, but I've seen some insist that DD
memory must be installed in pairs. What's the real scoop on this

Thanks

Ti

 

[John]

Well, I hope I didn't make a mistake I'm going to regret.

I had a one time opportunity to buy an Abit IS7 and P4 3.0GHz 800MHz
FSB Northwood combination for $230, but I had to decide before I saw
any replies to my previous post. If I had to do it over again I'm
sure I would go the A64 3200+ route. In fact, I'm thinking about
eBay-ing this one to cut my "losses" and going forward with the A64
3200+ Venice plan.

I dont think it would be worth it. Frankly your needs are really
modest from what you posted so you would probably be happy with
whatever you got. If you ebay it - theres the possibility you could
lose some money and its a hassle so its really not worth it since what
you got isnt bad at all.

The two issues you mention , multitaksing and upgradeability are
reasonably important depending on the price of the choice you make but
since you already got something , its worth selling just because of
the two issues. Your concerns about multitasking --- when I mention
it I mean in the context of what heavy users encounter not the avg
guy. Frankly once again for avg multitasking I didnt have huge
problems even with my old barton athlon XP or even when I was using a
1 gig ancient athlon for a while when I was waiting for all my 939
system parts which I had to do for over a month.

Im talking about having int explorer open, word processor, several
instances of agent a newsreader and even other stuff. Thats NO problem
as long as you have adequate memory. I have 1 gig thinking about more.

BUT --- if you do video encoding, video capturing (Ive got a TV tuner
card) and other things that puts a heavy load on your system. My
athlon XP barton was actually quite fast but it would get really
bogged down with video. The Athlon 64 is noticeably better in this
aspect. On top of that Im using RR cable which has 5 meg speeds now
and that seems to have an effect sometimes. Also newsgroups are
constantly expanding and news services are constantly increasing
retention. The new AGENT now is a system hog. just downloading all the
headers in a big group takes forever and searching newsgroup for text
and compressing and purging all seem to really bog my system down.
Lots of areas seem to hog my system more and more nowadays - BUT the
avg person doesnt do these things so its not a critcal thing for them.
If you do these thing then you should get the most powerful system for
your $$ and in fact even think of a dual core . In that case an
upgradeable board is a factor. But for just having a spreadsheet open,
word processing, tax program, simple newsreader etc - it should be no
big deal for any of the processors unless the spreadsheet is huge.

I have a question about the RAM. The IS7-E only has 2 DDR slots so I
don't want to make a mistake on this. I'd like to start the kids out
on 512MB of RAM to see how it does and then up them to 1GB if/when it
becomes needed. I believe I should be
able to put a single stick of 512MB PC3200 DDR400 dual channel memory
in there add another one later, but I've seen some insist that DDR
memory must be installed in pairs. What's the real scoop on this?

For the intel? Check your manual itll say what slots to use but Ive
read the same stuff as the AMD if you run dual channel you get two but
you can run one. You get a slight speed boost when you run dual
channel.

Some sticks out now are not very compatible. I was looking at another
article on some Pent systems where a guy claimed there were lots of
problems with incompatibilities.

Read these reviews at Tiger Direct on some PNY they are offering for
10 bucks 512 stick 3200 aftrer rebate


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=628069&Tab=11&NoMapp=0

I dont want to exaggerate for one thing maybe thats why its 10 bucks
AR. They point out the ULRA version seems to work OK with many
systems.

I had lots of problems with thew new generation of Kingston PNY and
CENTON 3200 DDR CL 3 vs my older 3200 CL 2.5 from the same companies.
However many dont have problems at least running it alone not with
other memory. On my system the sticks tended to do OK alone but went
wacko with my older sticks.

 

[tluxon]

Thanks for the great and thoughtful input

In a way, I was kinda hoping this computer would be a fair step u
from my own, which is basically a P4 2.8c 800fsb Northwood on a Asu
P4P800-E Deluxe motherboard with 1GB of RAM. I do a ton of vide
editing, including encoding while running Outlook and commonly 5 or
windows of IE. I have a AIW Radeon 9600 Pro so the TV is almos
always on in a corner of my 20" screen. It's not uncommon for me t
load up SolidWorks 2006 and bringing up a 100-200 part assembly (
play a design engineer at work) while all this is happening (excep
at this point video capture and encoding have to stop). My curren
PC actually handles this fairly well

Now this computer I'm putting together for the kids isn't going t
have the same demands placed on it, but that's my point of referenc
and thus my concern. Having put more thought into it, I'd bet th
kids will be much lighter multi-taskers, and in fact will probabl
use whatever power they have primarily for games

In reality, I could replace my 2.8c with the 3.0c I'm getting an
auction the 2.8c and the IS7-E off for probably less than a $30 o
$40 hit - I think? That being the case, wouldn't I be further ahea
in the long run going ahead with a s939 board and the A64 3200+ fo
now? At least then it seems I'd be leaving the door open for
future dual core possibility. The question is, I guess, will I eve
really do the CPU only upgrade or will this PC be enough to carry m
till I'd want to go with the next generation motherboard and CP
anyway

 

[John]

Thanks for the great and thoughtful input.

Make that "its NOT worth selling"

In a way, I was kinda hoping this computer would be a fair step up
from my own, which is basically a P4 2.8c 800fsb Northwood on a Asus
P4P800-E Deluxe motherboard with 1GB of RAM. I do a ton of video
editing, including encoding while running Outlook and commonly 5 or 6
windows of IE. I have a AIW Radeon 9600 Pro so the TV is almost
always on in a corner of my 20" screen. It's not uncommon for me to
load up SolidWorks 2006 and bringing up a 100-200 part assembly (I
play a design engineer at work) while all this is happening (except
at this point video capture and encoding have to stop). My current
PC actually handles this fairly well.

Then thats a different story but there is slight edge on various video
encoding tasks vs the Athlons and the Intels have hyperthreading on
most of their CPUs so thats a factor.

Now this computer I'm putting together for the kids isn't going to
have the same demands placed on it, but that's my point of reference
and thus my concern. Having put more thought into it, I'd bet the
kids will be much lighter multi-taskers, and in fact will probably
use whatever power they have primarily for games.

In reality, I could replace my 2.8c with the 3.0c I'm getting and
auction the 2.8c and the IS7-E off for probably less than a $30 or
$40 hit - I think? That being the case, wouldn't I be further ahead
in the long run going ahead with a s939 board and the A64 3200+ for
now? At least then it seems I'd be leaving the door open for a
future dual core possibility. The question is, I guess, will I ever
really do the CPU only upgrade or will this PC be enough to carry me
till I'd want to go with the next generation motherboard and CPU
anyway?

I dont think any of the options are that bad that itll make a critical
difference. However its kind of nice to get a dual core later.

The thing is a lot of people wont upgrade that often . If you dont
then by the time you do you may want to go for a M2 or the new gen of
INTEL cpus coming out by then. I think if you are going to upgrade in
a year then its more critical as the M2 and the next gen INTELs will
probably be expensive. But if you are going to wait to upgrade - 2
years or so the M2s and next gen INTELs will have fallen in price by
then possibly fairly low so you might skip the current dual cores.

In fact when I use something like TMPGenc to encode video which can
take hours - on one level once again its surprising how old a system
can do a lot of things even now. I used as I mentioned a 1 gig athlon
which I had laying around - I have 3 systems now - older 1 gig athlon
with 333 VIA chipset abit board ; my 939 3000 amd 64 system with 1
gig my main system with 800XL ATI; and a 754 socket 3200 64 with 256
mem and 9600 ati.

I just got another 9600 pro for $34 plus shipping. Im selling it to a
neighbor whos kid is game crazy and they arent wealthy . Around here
decent video cards are really expensive so this is a killer deal for
them.

You can actually encode video etc with old surprisingly old systems.
However on anything older than my AMD 64s the system is totally taken
over by TMGEnc cranking away. And that takes hours to encode video.
The system is almost unsable then. With my AMD 64 its usable but
theres a noticeable drag on it. Thats why I was thinking dual core.
Also the Agent thing bugs me - the super slow searching nowadays etc
but thats part the new Agents fault as there were lots of bugs when it
came out initially , they fixed a lot of them but its still a system
hog. And its part just the huge size of newsgroups nowadays.

Im trying to get more memory right now . I want two gigs. And Im
raiding my system again as I mentioned. I read Anandtechs article
where he says RAID has no real world effect on the vast majority of
users - no real gain I mean. With artificial benchmarks they say it
makes a big difference but no real world gains in game loading or
other tasks. After that I unraided my system but since Im running into
areas where my system seems to bog down which arent about pure CPU
speed etc Im thinking maybe the dual core, and more mem and RAID or a
raptor or the new gen SATA+NCQ HDs may make a difference. Anandtechs
been hot on some new SATA NCQ disks claiming there was a substantial
gain in real world use in SOME multitasking chores. In general SATA I
think makes very little difference as they say so all my disks are
actually still PATA cause the prices are dirt cheap on them.

I paid $29 each for 2 160 gigs and $39 for 2 - 200 gigs. I just got
another seagate 160 gig $39 to try to RAID my system which Ill do
hopefully this month.

Hopefully 1 gig more of mem and RAID will make a big difference though
I have some doubts on the RAID part.

That 9600 Pro deal was a killer. They are gone now though. Theres some
good deals on Patriot memory now at ZZF and Newegg - two matched pairs
for $76-80 2x512. Im thinking about it cause though theres nothing
special about matched pairs ----- they are CL 2.5 and Ive been having
big problems with the current crop of discount brands like Kingston,
PNY, Centon sold at COMPUSA and CC so I need some decent mem around
the same cheap price 30-40 a stick. Missed out on the $65 AR deal they
had to day at newegg.

The best solution for really annoying tasks that bog your system down
and take hours is to get another system to do it on of course thats
why I have the AMD 7200 which I use to just encode things but Id like
to make my AMD 939 even more robust with other chores like video
editing and using agent.

 

[tluxon]

tluxonwrote
...I could replace my 2.8c with the 3.0c I'm getting and auction th
2.8c and the IS7-E off for probably less than a $30 or $40 hit...
took another look and it turns out my current CPU is already a 3.0
Northwood, so I'm going to be pretty happy having two of them.
just hope the IS7-E motherboard doesn't provide too much of
liability in having only 2 memory slots and not having firewire or
RAID controller. If that becomes an issue, I'll probably just sel
it and look for another P4P800-E Deluxe

I'm figuring that by the time the kids need a lot of power for games
there'll be a new generation of processors and platforms anyway, I
the meantime, this'll be a pretty capable machine for a while

I appreciate the help - Thanks

Ti