R
RD
While looking for an answer for my question about breaking code I ran
across this. The guy, Aaron, goes into quite a rant but he says some
pretty pertinent stuff about MS's support for and direction of Access.
To point this up, the guy Aaron was talking to (Mosha, I think) had
never heard of ADP.
I started building apps with Access 95 and here in 2005 I'm still
using Access. Aaron points out that Excel is overused everywhere. I
couldn't agree more. I've actually lost good job oportunities because
I lack the Excel chops. Nevermind that these companies are using
Excel spreadsheets to do things they were never intended to do, things
that Access *was* designed to do.
I think MS has been listening to the dba snobs and doesn't take Access
seriously. I want to add my voice to Aaron's and ask MS why that is.
Anyway, I feel Aaron's pain and his rant really made me smile.
RD
<begin post>
Posted by (e-mail address removed) on microsoft.public.sqlserver.olap
SQL authentication doesn't work for SQL Server to anywhere. it just
isn't
functional-- because it isn't secure.
it isn't secure-- people chew me out for wanting to use it. this
product
has been out 4 years.. can't you fix it??
i just wish that you guys woudl fix it-- make it so that it is secure.
i've worked in a lot of environs-- like novell-- and SQL
authentication is
just SOOOOOO Much easier to use than NT authentication.
ADP (access data projects) are the best product that MS has ever put
out..
I've developed dozens of them.. And it is _REALLY_ buggy.
It is basically a way for access developers to start writing all of
their
queries on the SQL side.. it is very important.. and it is very
powerful.
I swear that every beancounter in the world should be developing their
reports in ADP; but somehow it's not getting traction.
I swear the product is buggy-- i have a whole list-- but it's like
they're
not taking me seriously.
i've worked with as400/RPG developers; and I've seen the pain that
they go
thru in order to create forms and reports against a database. that's
all im
talking about.. a simple platform for Small and Medium Businesses to
enter
data into a database. It is maybe scalable enoug to go to 50 or 100
users;
and it is fast (if written correctly)
ADP is that same market. It is critically important. Just a simple
mechanism for getting data into the database (bound SQL Server
platform) and
pulling it out via reporting.
it is about 10x more powerful than reporting services.. but it is
really
buggy.. and i'm tired of hearing excuses about why it is buggy; and
when it
is getting fixed.
I can't get anyone in the Office dept to fix problems i find.. and
I've
encountered the create proc bug every day. My co-workers make sprocs
using
the create proc syntax.. and it just craps out on me when i go to use
it in
ADP.
It's like-- if i create proc with create proc or create procedure-- it
should work either way.
I just love usign ADP for reporting; and it breaks my heart that you
guys
aren't taking it seriously-- i assume that is because you guys think
that RS
is going to replace Access Reporting.. and I dont' know if that is
going to
happen.
the most important part about ADP is that the tools in an Access Data
Proejct are better for writing stored procedures and SQL udfs.
_THAT_ is what this is all about... ADP is more powerful than other
tools
for writing sprocs.
it's like-- i haven't seen the same functionality anywhere.
you can open a portion of a sproc in design view-- you can take a
subquery
and open it in design view.. and this has been a part of office for
_YEARS_
and nobody uses it because it's so buggy.
There is definitely a need for this application. Access isn't ever
'just
going to go away'. Just like Excel isn't going to go away.
So start taking it seriously.
A lot of us got our starts in Access... The default repository in AS
2000 is
MDB. I wrote MDB with forms and reports for 2 years before getting
into
SQL Server.. I was able to get into SQL Server, because of my
background in
Access. I was able to become a SQL Server developer today-- solely
because I fell in love with ADP 4 years ago... and with every release
of
Office, you guys just break my heart.
I _know_ that ADP and DAP must be a really big money pit-- but the
alternative-- where your customers are heading-- is a much more
dangerous
path.
I see hundreds of spreadsheets every where I go. I see hundreds of
spreadsheet developers-- and the problem is a marketing problem with
Access.. Marketing-- because you guys won't come out and lay out a
roadmap
for Access that goes 10 years down the road.. And start responding to
complaints about bugs and stuff.. I mean-- the usability of Access has
gone
DOWN in the past few years.
Some _LOSER_ decided that it was ok to prompt end-users a half-dozen
times
to run macros in Access. That isn't acceptable. Excel Macros are
just as
much of a theat as Access Macros-- Excel only prompts you ONCE about
macros,
but Access prompts you once for the 'Jet Sp8 bs' and once for 'are you
surce
you want to run this, it has macros; it could be dangerous.
Isnt' this the same warning??
Can't you guys get a clue and start being CONSIDERATE of access; and
respect
the Access development community?
I know you're going to laugh-- but Access is on the path to SQL
Server; and
Excel geeks are _NEVER_ going to get into SQL Server.. Us DB
Developers are
overworked as it is...
Every beancounter in the world should be writing reports in ADP
instead of
Access. Crystal Reports has a 20% market share.
Reporting Services doesn't compete with Crystal Reports. RS competes
with
Crystal Enterprise. All we need is the ability to make canned
reports--
that we can print and customize-- using VBA.
We need to be able to control the layout of a report.. create them
programmatically.. We need to be able to refer to controls on
different
levels-- in Access; it is easy to calculate a percentage of group---
or
whatever kind of calculation you want. RS and SQL 2000-- they're just
not
as powerful as Access MDB has been for the past 8 years.. Microsoft
SQL 2000
doesn't have a LOT of the features that were present in Access 95 and
97..
And insteead of fixing the problems in the current version of Access;
now
you're trying to sell us on this infopath/sharepoint BS.
Cut the crap and start taking Access seriously.
Access is more powerful than TSQL-- the Crosstab Query-- i mean SQL
2005 is
finally competing with MDB...
And VB.net 2005 _might_ be good enough to compete with Access forms--
there is a saying (among us Access Developers) that if something takes
me 1
hour to write in Access, it would take a 'normal vb developer' 3 hours
to
write; and 4 hours to write in ASP/ASP.net.
It's a statistic, a motto and a way of life.
Access is the best platform in the world for doing simple data entry
and
reporting tasks.
It is a seperate product than SQL2000-- I understand this.
but they're not responding; and I don't care who needs to do what-- I
need
to hear a 'Yes, Sir' when I tell you that Create Proc bug is going to
drive
someone crazy someday.
I mean-- 'Create Proc SpHappy as select * FROM sysobjects'
Open it in ADP; change it in design view; and then save the changes.
'The parameter is incorrect'--- What kindof error message is that????
Create Proc Procname is listed in SQL Books Online.. can't we _please_
make
it work correctly with ADP sprocs??
We woudl all love to get rid of _everythign_ and start fresh with SQL
Reporting Services.. But with the way that you guys introduce new
products
every 6 months; and you drop existing products..
I just feel like you guys aren't supporting your most important
products at
a time when you need to be doing this.
Reporting Services doesn't suck.. I am sorry for saying that.. It is
just
obnoxiously difficult to get used to..
I've never seen .net outside of Redmond.. and it's difficult for
Microsoft
to convince me to run out and learn a new language every 2 years.
It isn't on my agenda-- I have code to write; not code to learn.
And I really wish that you guys had come out with a more polished
product in
RS 2000. I swear I've had problems where I save reports; and the save
isn't
committed. I swear, the OLAP debugger-- you guys _have_ to be able to
do
something about it's ability to debug MDX statements.. in SQL 2000.
I swear, I've had hangs and crashes with VS2003-- I lock my PC and
come back
from lunch and VS2003 is hung.. It worked before hand; it's not
workign
now.. It's just not production ready..
And I wish that maybe things would have been different these past few
years...
All I know is that this nightmare that i'm having today.. it looks an
awful
lot like the same nightmare that I had in 1999--- people use
spreadsheets
too much; and there is a stigma -- even within Microsoft-- that Excel
is the
right platform for _everything_ to be written in.
I've seen spreadsheet problems soo complex that they make me sick.
Do you know how much more fun this OLAP game would be if every
beancounter
were writing MDB (or ADP) reports and tables instead of in XLS?
I mean-- It is SOOOOOOOOOOO inefficient to have meeting notes in a
xls; and
schedules in an XLS and goals and all of this-- in an XLS.
And i think that there is a problem that Microsoft isn't recognizing--
I
think that Microsoft isn't responding to complaints about USABILITY
issues
for Access.. that woudl surely drive one crazy.
I'm about at that point, if I get that prompt ONE MORE TIME i swear...
and
the reason that you guys won't fix it is:
a) the marketing problem regarding Access is WORSE even with Microsoft
b) beancounters rule the roost at Microsoft-- so some PM sneers-- 'why
do we
even MAKE access anymore'
c) because you're too busy working on Access 12 to fix problems that
have
been around since Office 2000.
Spreadsheets are a disease-- a one-way street for data to get buried
in
formatting and formulas...
You guys aren't responding to this problem because you guys have a
marketing
problem with Access.
i'm just frustrated; since my co-workers always use the crate proc
syntax..
and i always have to recreate sprocs using the create procedure
syntax..
it's just kinda ridiculous..
and i can't get anyone on the access side to admit it's annoying..
it's
like-- totally impossible to convince them.
I shouldn't have to convince them-- they should say 'yes sir, we will
fix
that right now, thank you'.
i just don't appreciate the attitude i've seen.. it's like you guys
are
willing to accept bugs.. and I say that MS is big enough and
successful
enough that they can raise the bar a little bit..
if a label doesn't update; then you should hide the label-- call it
connection1 and connection2 if you must..
I'm just frustrated that things aren't moving faster on the SQL2000
front;
and I see soooooo many people having problems with OLAP patches and
drivers.. and i'm like-- it's simpler than this guys.. if something is
wrong, bitch about it until it gets fixed.
well here i am; saying that you have problems-- where SQL is barely
useable.. because of security concerns.
SQL authentication is a REQUIREMENT, not an afterthought. We
shouldn't have
to change our domains just because you guys decide to make 'NT
Authentication' the _preferred_ way to do things in SQL 2000????
Well, that ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. TRY GIVING ME A DIFFERENT ANSWER.
That doesn't mean that you can accept SQL authentication like it has
been.
Make wizards for protecting against dictionary attacks in SQL Server
2000.
Make it so that we can add a certificate to a SQL login; and then we
dont'
have to use Windows authentication _or_ drop our shields.
Make your existing products easier to use, less buggy, more reliable..
and
more secure.
The product isnt' finished when it ships out the door.
I have seen problem after problem after problem with SQL Server.. and
a lot
of times; I have problems with NT authentication.
A lot of times, my SQL JOB FAILS because some lame Windows Admin is
rebooting some server or upgrading hard drives and my SQL jobs fail
because
of it.
That is when NT authentication proves that it isn't reliable enough to
get
the job done.
I just know that you guys have the resources to start fixing problems;
and
to improve your attitude-- take an attitude that you are going to get
these
products to ZERO BUGCOUNT because you have the _ABILITY_ to do it.
Raise the bar.
Don't accept mediocrity.
And when something is broken; fix it.
-aaron
across this. The guy, Aaron, goes into quite a rant but he says some
pretty pertinent stuff about MS's support for and direction of Access.
To point this up, the guy Aaron was talking to (Mosha, I think) had
never heard of ADP.
I started building apps with Access 95 and here in 2005 I'm still
using Access. Aaron points out that Excel is overused everywhere. I
couldn't agree more. I've actually lost good job oportunities because
I lack the Excel chops. Nevermind that these companies are using
Excel spreadsheets to do things they were never intended to do, things
that Access *was* designed to do.
I think MS has been listening to the dba snobs and doesn't take Access
seriously. I want to add my voice to Aaron's and ask MS why that is.
Anyway, I feel Aaron's pain and his rant really made me smile.
RD
<begin post>
Posted by (e-mail address removed) on microsoft.public.sqlserver.olap
SQL authentication doesn't work for SQL Server to anywhere. it just
isn't
functional-- because it isn't secure.
it isn't secure-- people chew me out for wanting to use it. this
product
has been out 4 years.. can't you fix it??
i just wish that you guys woudl fix it-- make it so that it is secure.
i've worked in a lot of environs-- like novell-- and SQL
authentication is
just SOOOOOO Much easier to use than NT authentication.
ADP (access data projects) are the best product that MS has ever put
out..
I've developed dozens of them.. And it is _REALLY_ buggy.
It is basically a way for access developers to start writing all of
their
queries on the SQL side.. it is very important.. and it is very
powerful.
I swear that every beancounter in the world should be developing their
reports in ADP; but somehow it's not getting traction.
I swear the product is buggy-- i have a whole list-- but it's like
they're
not taking me seriously.
i've worked with as400/RPG developers; and I've seen the pain that
they go
thru in order to create forms and reports against a database. that's
all im
talking about.. a simple platform for Small and Medium Businesses to
enter
data into a database. It is maybe scalable enoug to go to 50 or 100
users;
and it is fast (if written correctly)
ADP is that same market. It is critically important. Just a simple
mechanism for getting data into the database (bound SQL Server
platform) and
pulling it out via reporting.
it is about 10x more powerful than reporting services.. but it is
really
buggy.. and i'm tired of hearing excuses about why it is buggy; and
when it
is getting fixed.
I can't get anyone in the Office dept to fix problems i find.. and
I've
encountered the create proc bug every day. My co-workers make sprocs
using
the create proc syntax.. and it just craps out on me when i go to use
it in
ADP.
It's like-- if i create proc with create proc or create procedure-- it
should work either way.
I just love usign ADP for reporting; and it breaks my heart that you
guys
aren't taking it seriously-- i assume that is because you guys think
that RS
is going to replace Access Reporting.. and I dont' know if that is
going to
happen.
the most important part about ADP is that the tools in an Access Data
Proejct are better for writing stored procedures and SQL udfs.
_THAT_ is what this is all about... ADP is more powerful than other
tools
for writing sprocs.
it's like-- i haven't seen the same functionality anywhere.
you can open a portion of a sproc in design view-- you can take a
subquery
and open it in design view.. and this has been a part of office for
_YEARS_
and nobody uses it because it's so buggy.
There is definitely a need for this application. Access isn't ever
'just
going to go away'. Just like Excel isn't going to go away.
So start taking it seriously.
A lot of us got our starts in Access... The default repository in AS
2000 is
MDB. I wrote MDB with forms and reports for 2 years before getting
into
SQL Server.. I was able to get into SQL Server, because of my
background in
Access. I was able to become a SQL Server developer today-- solely
because I fell in love with ADP 4 years ago... and with every release
of
Office, you guys just break my heart.
I _know_ that ADP and DAP must be a really big money pit-- but the
alternative-- where your customers are heading-- is a much more
dangerous
path.
I see hundreds of spreadsheets every where I go. I see hundreds of
spreadsheet developers-- and the problem is a marketing problem with
Access.. Marketing-- because you guys won't come out and lay out a
roadmap
for Access that goes 10 years down the road.. And start responding to
complaints about bugs and stuff.. I mean-- the usability of Access has
gone
DOWN in the past few years.
Some _LOSER_ decided that it was ok to prompt end-users a half-dozen
times
to run macros in Access. That isn't acceptable. Excel Macros are
just as
much of a theat as Access Macros-- Excel only prompts you ONCE about
macros,
but Access prompts you once for the 'Jet Sp8 bs' and once for 'are you
surce
you want to run this, it has macros; it could be dangerous.
Isnt' this the same warning??
Can't you guys get a clue and start being CONSIDERATE of access; and
respect
the Access development community?
I know you're going to laugh-- but Access is on the path to SQL
Server; and
Excel geeks are _NEVER_ going to get into SQL Server.. Us DB
Developers are
overworked as it is...
Every beancounter in the world should be writing reports in ADP
instead of
Access. Crystal Reports has a 20% market share.
Reporting Services doesn't compete with Crystal Reports. RS competes
with
Crystal Enterprise. All we need is the ability to make canned
reports--
that we can print and customize-- using VBA.
We need to be able to control the layout of a report.. create them
programmatically.. We need to be able to refer to controls on
different
levels-- in Access; it is easy to calculate a percentage of group---
or
whatever kind of calculation you want. RS and SQL 2000-- they're just
not
as powerful as Access MDB has been for the past 8 years.. Microsoft
SQL 2000
doesn't have a LOT of the features that were present in Access 95 and
97..
And insteead of fixing the problems in the current version of Access;
now
you're trying to sell us on this infopath/sharepoint BS.
Cut the crap and start taking Access seriously.
Access is more powerful than TSQL-- the Crosstab Query-- i mean SQL
2005 is
finally competing with MDB...
And VB.net 2005 _might_ be good enough to compete with Access forms--
there is a saying (among us Access Developers) that if something takes
me 1
hour to write in Access, it would take a 'normal vb developer' 3 hours
to
write; and 4 hours to write in ASP/ASP.net.
It's a statistic, a motto and a way of life.
Access is the best platform in the world for doing simple data entry
and
reporting tasks.
It is a seperate product than SQL2000-- I understand this.
but they're not responding; and I don't care who needs to do what-- I
need
to hear a 'Yes, Sir' when I tell you that Create Proc bug is going to
drive
someone crazy someday.
I mean-- 'Create Proc SpHappy as select * FROM sysobjects'
Open it in ADP; change it in design view; and then save the changes.
'The parameter is incorrect'--- What kindof error message is that????
Create Proc Procname is listed in SQL Books Online.. can't we _please_
make
it work correctly with ADP sprocs??
We woudl all love to get rid of _everythign_ and start fresh with SQL
Reporting Services.. But with the way that you guys introduce new
products
every 6 months; and you drop existing products..
I just feel like you guys aren't supporting your most important
products at
a time when you need to be doing this.
Reporting Services doesn't suck.. I am sorry for saying that.. It is
just
obnoxiously difficult to get used to..
I've never seen .net outside of Redmond.. and it's difficult for
Microsoft
to convince me to run out and learn a new language every 2 years.
It isn't on my agenda-- I have code to write; not code to learn.
And I really wish that you guys had come out with a more polished
product in
RS 2000. I swear I've had problems where I save reports; and the save
isn't
committed. I swear, the OLAP debugger-- you guys _have_ to be able to
do
something about it's ability to debug MDX statements.. in SQL 2000.
I swear, I've had hangs and crashes with VS2003-- I lock my PC and
come back
from lunch and VS2003 is hung.. It worked before hand; it's not
workign
now.. It's just not production ready..
And I wish that maybe things would have been different these past few
years...
All I know is that this nightmare that i'm having today.. it looks an
awful
lot like the same nightmare that I had in 1999--- people use
spreadsheets
too much; and there is a stigma -- even within Microsoft-- that Excel
is the
right platform for _everything_ to be written in.
I've seen spreadsheet problems soo complex that they make me sick.
Do you know how much more fun this OLAP game would be if every
beancounter
were writing MDB (or ADP) reports and tables instead of in XLS?
I mean-- It is SOOOOOOOOOOO inefficient to have meeting notes in a
xls; and
schedules in an XLS and goals and all of this-- in an XLS.
And i think that there is a problem that Microsoft isn't recognizing--
I
think that Microsoft isn't responding to complaints about USABILITY
issues
for Access.. that woudl surely drive one crazy.
I'm about at that point, if I get that prompt ONE MORE TIME i swear...
and
the reason that you guys won't fix it is:
a) the marketing problem regarding Access is WORSE even with Microsoft
b) beancounters rule the roost at Microsoft-- so some PM sneers-- 'why
do we
even MAKE access anymore'
c) because you're too busy working on Access 12 to fix problems that
have
been around since Office 2000.
Spreadsheets are a disease-- a one-way street for data to get buried
in
formatting and formulas...
You guys aren't responding to this problem because you guys have a
marketing
problem with Access.
i'm just frustrated; since my co-workers always use the crate proc
syntax..
and i always have to recreate sprocs using the create procedure
syntax..
it's just kinda ridiculous..
and i can't get anyone on the access side to admit it's annoying..
it's
like-- totally impossible to convince them.
I shouldn't have to convince them-- they should say 'yes sir, we will
fix
that right now, thank you'.
i just don't appreciate the attitude i've seen.. it's like you guys
are
willing to accept bugs.. and I say that MS is big enough and
successful
enough that they can raise the bar a little bit..
if a label doesn't update; then you should hide the label-- call it
connection1 and connection2 if you must..
I'm just frustrated that things aren't moving faster on the SQL2000
front;
and I see soooooo many people having problems with OLAP patches and
drivers.. and i'm like-- it's simpler than this guys.. if something is
wrong, bitch about it until it gets fixed.
well here i am; saying that you have problems-- where SQL is barely
useable.. because of security concerns.
SQL authentication is a REQUIREMENT, not an afterthought. We
shouldn't have
to change our domains just because you guys decide to make 'NT
Authentication' the _preferred_ way to do things in SQL 2000????
Well, that ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. TRY GIVING ME A DIFFERENT ANSWER.
That doesn't mean that you can accept SQL authentication like it has
been.
Make wizards for protecting against dictionary attacks in SQL Server
2000.
Make it so that we can add a certificate to a SQL login; and then we
dont'
have to use Windows authentication _or_ drop our shields.
Make your existing products easier to use, less buggy, more reliable..
and
more secure.
The product isnt' finished when it ships out the door.
I have seen problem after problem after problem with SQL Server.. and
a lot
of times; I have problems with NT authentication.
A lot of times, my SQL JOB FAILS because some lame Windows Admin is
rebooting some server or upgrading hard drives and my SQL jobs fail
because
of it.
That is when NT authentication proves that it isn't reliable enough to
get
the job done.
I just know that you guys have the resources to start fixing problems;
and
to improve your attitude-- take an attitude that you are going to get
these
products to ZERO BUGCOUNT because you have the _ABILITY_ to do it.
Raise the bar.
Don't accept mediocrity.
And when something is broken; fix it.
-aaron