8X AGP in 4X slot?

[T i m]

Hi All,

I was round my friends today and noticed how slow his video was
(compared to mine).

I checked drivers / updates etc and all seemed ok so assumed it might
just be a low (old) spec Video card?

The madine is a ~2.8G P4, 1G Ram in an Intel D845PESV mobo with a
Radion 7000 AGP (64M) card?

Looking about a "256MB Radeon 9250 DDR TV Out DVI-I AGP" can be had
quite cheap but is 8X AGP .. would that simply match (clock down) to
the mobo AGP slot speed and if so would it still work reasonably well
(or better than the 7000 at least?)

The mobo manual says "1.5V 4X" but the video cards rarely state what
voltage they require (in spite of warnings re plugging them into the
wrong spec slot?).

Are there keyways / autosense that actually make sure there is little
chance of doing any real damage?

All the best ..

T i m

 

[Tick]

To the best of my knowledge, the card will downgrade and be able to run
in your motherboard, however it won't run at it's optimum speed.

If video speed is really something that is important for you, perhaps
you should consider upgrading both your motherboard as well as video
card, and get a board with PCI-Xpress.
Within the next year, AGP cards will no longer be on the shelves, as
PCI-Xpress runs at 16x compared to the 8x or 4x that AGP did.

Hope this helps

 

[Kevin]

To the best of my knowledge, the card will downgrade and be able to run
in your motherboard, however it won't run at it's optimum speed.

If video speed is really something that is important for you, perhaps
you should consider upgrading both your motherboard as well as video
card, and get a board with PCI-Xpress.
Within the next year, AGP cards will no longer be on the shelves, as
PCI-Xpress runs at 16x compared to the 8x or 4x that AGP did.

Hope this helps

And PCI-E 16X shows no current benefit over AGP 4X even. Where do you
get your BS info from? An 8x agp card will work fine in a mb with only
AGP 4X, and they will run at the same speed too. AGP 4X, 8X refers to
bandwidth but no current video cards even come close to tapping into
that bandwidth so the performance is the same between AGP 4X/8X and
PCI-E 16X.

You probably had the same idiot salesman I had that tried to BS me and
tell me the PCI-E version compared to the same AGP version will get
ten FPS more. Benchmarks all over the internet show that to be a
complete lie.

 

[T i m]

An 8x agp card will work fine in a mb with only
AGP 4X, and they will run at the same speed too. AGP 4X, 8X refers to
bandwidth but no current video cards even come close to tapping into
that bandwidth so the performance is the same between AGP 4X/8X and
PCI-E 16X.

Ah (so making sure I have this right) are you saying that the current
display card offerings (AGP X2-8 etc) are still way behind the
potential of the 'system' as a whole?

Like a BMX or even racing cycle might be to a FI car?

All the best ..

T i m

 

[spodosaurus]

Ah (so making sure I have this right) are you saying that the current
display card offerings (AGP X2-8 etc) are still way behind the
potential of the 'system' as a whole?

Like a BMX or even racing cycle might be to a FI car?

All the best ..

T i m

I may be wrong, but I think the chipset and memory of the cards is
insufficiently speedy to max out the bandwidth offered by AGP 4x, much
less AGP 8x. Please feel free to correct me!

Cheers,

Ari

--
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I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
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transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

 

[Des]

The board will only run at X4 (probably less due to timming problems)
Also most modern PC games expect at least 128Meg card. Some PC Games
detect the memory and if it is 256 or 512 meg give you extra features
in the game.

Desmond.

 

[T i m]

I may be wrong, but I think the chipset and memory of the cards is
insufficiently speedy to max out the bandwidth offered by AGP 4x, much
less AGP 8x. Please feel free to correct me!

So <thinks> older video cards basically just put on the screen what
the CPU threw at them?

Then we had 'video accellerator' cards that had some ability on their
own, offloading some of the 'work' from the CPU.

The PCI bus with and speed limited the throughput to some degree so
they created the AGP ..

Then the took that on fron 1X to 8X or whatever?

At the same time the cards own ability has improved with added RAM,
faster DAC's / CPU's etc but the bit I'm still unclear on is where we
are saying the bottleneck currently is?

I suppose as you get the CPU/Mobo to do less (by passing less data
*volume* to the video card .. ie you give it 'outlines' and the video
card fills it in itself locally) you put less load on the video bus,
effectivly increasing the available bandwidth? <shrug>.

All the best ..

T i m

 

[T i m]

The board will only run at X4 (probably less due to timming problems)
Also most modern PC games expect at least 128Meg card. Some PC Games
detect the memory and if it is 256 or 512 meg give you extra features
in the game.

Understood.

I think my mates card has 64M onboard RAM and as you say many have
256M these days.

So, are we saying the speed of the bus is less of an issue now the
cards themselves are getting better?

Ie, if I replace my mates Radion 7000 (that I believe supports AGP X4
, 1.5V) with a card that could support 8X but would limit to 4X on his
mobo, has 4 x the memory (and that is probably faster too) and
probably has a faster subsystem (DAV etc) would he/we see a big
improvement on say Pariah (game) or Goodle earth?

He first noticed the issue as his wifes (WiFi) medium spec laptop runs
Google earth very quickly and his locally connected tower fairly high
spec (3G P4, 1G DDR etc) runs it very (and I mean very) slowly? ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

 

[jaster]

Understood.

I think my mates card has 64M onboard RAM and as you say many have 256M
these days.

So, are we saying the speed of the bus is less of an issue now the cards
themselves are getting better?

Ie, if I replace my mates Radion 7000 (that I believe supports AGP X4 ,
1.5V) with a card that could support 8X but would limit to 4X on his mobo,
has 4 x the memory (and that is probably faster too) and probably has a
faster subsystem (DAV etc) would he/we see a big improvement on say Pariah
(game) or Goodle earth?

He first noticed the issue as his wifes (WiFi) medium spec laptop runs
Google earth very quickly and his locally connected tower fairly high spec
(3G P4, 1G DDR etc) runs it very (and I mean very) slowly? ;-(

Then maybe the problem isn't the video. With 1gb DDR he has more
than enough memory and the laptop is most likely only 64mb. He probably
needs to clean out spyware/adware, etc.

 

[T i m]

Then maybe the problem isn't the video. With 1gb DDR he has more
than enough memory and the laptop is most likely only 64mb. He probably
needs to clean out spyware/adware, etc.

It *could be* but he has M$Antispyware and Avast! running and does
regular scans with AdAware / Spybot etc?

However he does like downloading / installing trying stuff so I hate
to think how 'messy' his registry is now ..;-(

I did mention maybe it was time for a 'fresh install' .. he didn't
seem that interested .. ;-(

Maybe I need to see if I can find a self booting Linux CD with a game
on it .. (to isolate his OS) ;-)

Ho hum ..

All the best ..

T i m

 

[Pepper von Evil]

On 4 Oct 2005 04:26:38 -0700, "Des" <[email protected]> wrote:

Ie, if I replace my mates Radion 7000 (that I believe supports AGP X4
, 1.5V) with a card that could support 8X but would limit to 4X on his
mobo, has 4 x the memory (and that is probably faster too) and
probably has a faster subsystem (DAV etc) would he/we see a big
improvement on say Pariah (game) or Goodle earth?

He first noticed the issue as his wifes (WiFi) medium spec laptop runs
Google earth very quickly and his locally connected tower fairly high
spec (3G P4, 1G DDR etc) runs it very (and I mean very) slowly? ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

I had a Radeon 7200 in my system (P4 3Ghz 1GB ram etc.) and upgraded to a
GeForce 6600GT huge improvement. There are big differences in what the cards
have to offer (newer cards have shader models, etc.) There will be a
noticable difference in upgrading.

Pepper

 

[Kevin]

It *could be* but he has M$Antispyware and Avast! running and does
regular scans with AdAware / Spybot etc?

However he does like downloading / installing trying stuff so I hate
to think how 'messy' his registry is now ..;-(

I did mention maybe it was time for a 'fresh install' .. he didn't
seem that interested .. ;-(

Maybe I need to see if I can find a self booting Linux CD with a game
on it .. (to isolate his OS) ;-)

Ho hum ..

All the best ..

T i m

It's most likely the ATI 7000 video card that is at issue. Get
something better, something more like a Radeon 9800pro or Nvidia
6600GT. So long as the AGP slot is 1.5v and not the old 3.3v the 8X
card will work as advertised in a 4X slot. Some people have been known
to change their 8X setting to 4X setting because they found it
increased stability and at no performance loss.

 

[T i m]

It's most likely the ATI 7000 video card that is at issue. Get
something better, something more like a Radeon 9800pro or Nvidia
6600GT.

I have a Sapphire 9600 and its great ;-)

So long as the AGP slot is 1.5v and not the old 3.3v the 8X

card will work as advertised in a 4X slot.

Well, according to the Intel datasheet the mobo is 3V for X2 and 1.5V
for X4/8?

Some people have been known

to change their 8X setting to 4X setting because they found it
increased stability and at no performance loss.

Interesting .. thanks Kevin ;-)

Alll the best ..

T i m

 

[T i m]

I had a Radeon 7200 in my system (P4 3Ghz 1GB ram etc.) and upgraded to a
GeForce 6600GT huge improvement. There are big differences in what the cards
have to offer (newer cards have shader models, etc.) There will be a
noticable difference in upgrading.

Thanks Pepper ;-)

I only have a Sempron 2600+ in this box but with 512M and the
(cheapish) Sapphire 9600 (256 DDR, V out, DVI) has no problems with
Pariah (game) or Google Earth so that will do for me ;-)

I remember many 'leaps' in PC technology over the years but
improvements in video have always been the most dramatic ... like
going from 8 to 16 bit ISA cards, 'windows accelerator cards', 16 bit
ISA to Local Bus then from that to PCI. I rember even 'basic' AGP (64
bit) cards being as good / better than quite fancy PCI (32 bit)
ones.;-)

All the best ..

T i m

 

[Ian D.]

Thanks Pepper ;-)

I only have a Sempron 2600+ in this box but with 512M and the
(cheapish) Sapphire 9600 (256 DDR, V out, DVI) has no problems with
Pariah (game) or Google Earth so that will do for me ;-)

I remember many 'leaps' in PC technology over the years but
improvements in video have always been the most dramatic ... like
going from 8 to 16 bit ISA cards, 'windows accelerator cards', 16 bit
ISA to Local Bus then from that to PCI. I rember even 'basic' AGP (64
bit) cards being as good / better than quite fancy PCI (32 bit)
ones.;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Radeon 7000 is a pretty old and pedestrian videocard. Particularly if
your software asks for more than is well supported in hardware, you
will see a tremendous bog down, compared to newer cards that have more
features.
The card should appear to run well on DX7 games, or you have some
other serious problem.

Issues like 64MB or 256Mb and AGPx4 or AGPx8 cannot have much to do
with this. Also as previously stated by others, PCI-E videocards have
no current performance advantages over AGPx8. Nor will they have so in
any immediate future. Just like SATA, DDR2, PCI-E is something that
doesn't bring any immediate benefits for the user. They are standards
that simplify things (cheaper) for the manufacturers, and bring in
more headroom that will be used in some future, but not when the
standards are introduced.

It seems horrible to me to hamper a 1GB 2.8GHz P4 with a R7000. So
replacing it is definitely a good idea. Not anything from the R92000
series though. That's all crap for modern 3D. Just yet another shitty
card. Also avoid R-X300 and anything FX5x00.
Cheapest decent video chips are R9600 and Gf6200. But you do
absolutely NOT want any "SE" or "TC" version of those!
Also, IMO a 2.8GHz P4 deserve at least R9800, Gf6600, R-X800gt, or
Gf6600gt. These cards are all fast enough to make it possible to
enable the options in late games that will make use of 256MB compared
to 128MB. However, it's no big deal for these cards and 128MB should
be fine.
For lesser cards than these, 256MB is completely wasted, but one
should get at least 128MB on board. AGP aperture in BIOS should be set
to 64MB no matter what.

But you did say "~2.8GHz". Which suggests attempt at OC, and that
maybe other issues can be involved?
Overclocking can interfere with AGP clock for instance, and memory bus
could also be screwed. You could also have some throttling issue since
it's a P4. I would suggests some testing sessions.
Get SiSoft Sandra suit and Throttlewatch. But a very simple thing is
to just set everything back to default and check how it runs.

But anyway, by all means upgrade the videocard. That's long overdue.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think all AGPx8 cards will accept an 1.5V
AGPx4 port.

 

[T i m]

It seems horrible to me to hamper a 1GB 2.8GHz P4 with a R7000. So
replacing it is definitely a good idea.

That's what I guessed .. ;-)

Not anything from the R92000

series though. That's all crap for modern 3D. Just yet another shitty
card. Also avoid R-X300 and anything FX5x00.

Ok ..

Cheapest decent video chips are R9600 and Gf6200. But you do
absolutely NOT want any "SE" or "TC" version of those!

Ah .. ;-( Because price was a bit of an issue (and stock at my
supplier) I ended up with a Sapphire 9600 (gulp) SE .. ;-(

Also, IMO a 2.8GHz P4 deserve at least R9800, Gf6600, R-X800gt, or
Gf6600gt. These cards are all fast enough to make it possible to
enable the options in late games that will make use of 256MB compared
to 128MB. However, it's no big deal for these cards and 128MB should
be fine.

Ok ..

For lesser cards than these, 256MB is completely wasted, but one
should get at least 128MB on board. AGP aperture in BIOS should be set
to 64MB no matter what.

Understood ..

But you did say "~2.8GHz". Which suggests attempt at OC, and that
maybe other issues can be involved?

No, that was just my guess .. it's not overclocked.

But anyway, by all means upgrade the videocard. That's long overdue.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think all AGPx8 cards will accept an 1.5V
AGPx4 port.

Well you might be able to add something to another one then.

I loaded Pariah (FPS game) on a mates PC (to show him the game and as
a video test) and it ran very slowly, even with graphics options set
on low. His existing card was a 64M AGP (Nvidea TNT2 64 or similar)
card of some sort so as (potentially) an 'upgrade' I fitted him with a
9600SE. When we re-tried the game it't didn't run at first and after I
deleted the games .ini file it did run and it was better but not by
much? I ran out of time as I was going to re-install the game to see
if it detected the card better?

Any thoughts please?

All the best ..

T i m

 

[Ian D.]

Ah .. ;-( Because price was a bit of an issue (and stock at my
supplier) I ended up with a Sapphire 9600 (gulp) SE .. ;-(

I suppose I should ask what's wrong with the above .. <ducks> ?

Well, it's sort of a 'half' R9600 :-/

I loaded Pariah (FPS game) on a mates PC (to show him the game and as
a video test) and it ran very slowly, even with graphics options set
on low. His existing card was a 64M AGP (Nvidea TNT2 64 or similar)
card of some sort so as (potentially) an 'upgrade' I fitted him with a
9600SE. When we re-tried the game it't didn't run at first and after I
deleted the games .ini file it did run and it was better but not by
much? I ran out of time as I was going to re-install the game to see
if it detected the card better?

Any thoughts please?

The R9600SE should run much better than TNT2.
I know nothing about Pariah, but I would guess that the installed game
does not correctly use hardware features of the R9600. Instead it may
use a lot of software rendering and connect with the R9600 through
older interfaces.

Wild guesses: First it tried to connect to the TNT2 card that was in
place when the game was installed. That's why it didn't work.
Then, when the .ini file was deleted, it defaulted to some archaic
general rendering mode that the R9600 made an heroic effort to run at
speed, and even succeded to still better the TNT2...

You need to make sure old video drivers are gone, then new ones
installed, as well as new version of DirectX,
_THEN_ install the game.

P.S. sorry, as you see, I've not dropped in here for awhile.

 

[=?ISO-8859-15?Q?SIM=F6N1975?=]

i have a columbia ver 1.0 ATX mobo (giga-byte) it has a x4 AGP
i recently purchased a Gainward 256mb geforce 6600gt golden sample
card AGPx8
popped it in my slott.......... no problems at all , it runs as well
as my mates and his mobo has x8

dont think any games(that i own) could push these cards as to make a
real difference with x4 & x8 as they do a lot of there own
processing anyway if you get my drift.
i have 2.2ghz but changed my apperture size in bios, clock IT!
(battlefield 2 rocks)

havent times changed since the commodore c64 with datacasette