6800XT vs 7600GS vs x800 Pro for AGP

[Riley]

Got upgrade my boys system because his old Radeon 9800 Pro is having
overheating problems I believe (get black screen after 30 minutes of gaming
but gaming continues on) even though the case is well ventilated. The card
even has one of those Arctic Coolers on it. Has that "black out" syndrome I
hear Radeons.

Price is a driver my decision. So I'm looking at the 6800XT, 7600GS, and
X800 Pro. The first two are available at around $110 after current rebates
and discounts. The later takes more time to find. I really don't want to
spend more than $130 after rebates and S/H.

Appreciate your comments on these boards and how they compare when running
at 1024x768x16 or 32 for BF2, SW Empire at War, COD 2, Rome Total War, and
SW Battlefront 2.

BigSky

 

[First of One]

Got upgrade my boys system because his old Radeon 9800 Pro is having
overheating problems I believe (get black screen after 30 minutes of
gaming but gaming continues on) even though the case is well ventilated.
The card even has one of those Arctic Coolers on it. Has that "black out"
syndrome I hear Radeons.

This is the stupid way of solving the problem. If the card is overheating,
you improve the cooling rather than replace the card. The cooler may be
ill-suited to the task, or it may be heavily clogged with dust. The silicone
paste supplied by Arctic Cooling can also dry up and crack over time.

Price is a driver my decision. So I'm looking at the 6800XT, 7600GS, and
X800 Pro. The first two are available at around $110 after current
rebates and discounts. The later takes more time to find. I really don't
want to spend more than $130 after rebates and S/H.

If you are set on upgrading, the X800 Pro offers better performance than the
other two. Feature-wise all three cards are effectively equal (the 6800XT
and 7600GS are too slow to use their Shader Model 3.0 effects in real
games). Looking on Pricegrabber, though, prices for X800 Pro AGP cards start
at $200.

 

[Larry Roberts]

This is the stupid way of solving the problem. If the card is overheating,
you improve the cooling rather than replace the card. The cooler may be
ill-suited to the task, or it may be heavily clogged with dust. The silicone
paste supplied by Arctic Cooling can also dry up and crack over time.


If you are set on upgrading, the X800 Pro offers better performance than the
other two. Feature-wise all three cards are effectively equal (the 6800XT
and 7600GS are too slow to use their Shader Model 3.0 effects in real
games). Looking on Pricegrabber, though, prices for X800 Pro AGP cards start
at $200.

If he games at 1024x768, or lower, the 7600GS can render SM
3.0 games nicely. For his budget, the 7600GS would be a nice choice. I
feel the 6800XT is just barely better than the 6600GT, while the
7600GS is quite better than the 6600GT.
I see that an X800GTO AGP with 256bit DDR3 at newegg.com cost
$139.99, while a 7600GS AGP with 128bit DDR2 start at $119.99. Some
reviewes claim the X800 GTO can be unlocked to 16 pixelpipes.

 

[BigSky]

Well, how to I answer this one. "Stupid" is a rather harsh answer
considering you have no idea what steps I have already taken to address the
overheating issue. First, I have cleaned out the Arctic Cooler and verified
it is sitting snugly against the GPU. Second, I put new Arctic Ceramic
Paste on the GPU about 4 months ago. Third, it is well know across the net
that ATI series 97XX and 98XX cards have overheating problems when running
on motherboards with older VIA chipsets (400 series as I have and earlier).
I have a similar issue with a 9700 Pro running on a KT300 VIA chipset. I
had to use ATI tray tools to set the AGP at 4x and turn off fast writes to
prevent the black screens. I couldn't increase the AGP voltage as suggested
because my motherboards don't support that option. Using older ATI drivers
or Omega drivers adds some stability but invariably the 9800 Pro gets very
hot...at least the memory does even though I have large copper heatsinks on
them. Fourth, I have an 80mm fan blowing over the back half of the card
which pulls in cool air from a perforated vent in the side panel to keep the
memory cool and push cool air to the Arctic Cooler. I also have a 120mm
case fan in the back of the case running at full speed to pull in plenty of
fresh air. Fifth, the CPU pulls in fresh air directly from the side panel
via a vent tube. Sixth, I'm not overclocking this card or the Sempron 3000+
socket A CPU. It seems to survive longer playing with COD 2 but will only
last 30-40 minutes with BF 2.

So, I'm on top of the cooling issue. I think this card is either going bad
OR its just a manifestation of this VIA-ATI-driver issue that is plagueing
these older cards. It almost seems like ATI is trying to get us to upgrade
our cards on purpose.

BigSky

 

[BigSky]

UDPATE:

I'm actually using a newer socket 754 motherboard, NFORCE based, with card
now and have the same issues as with the Sempron 3000+ socket A, VIA based,
motherboard. So I definitely think the problem is the card, the drivers,
the game settings, or a combination of these factors.

Sure do miss my stable TI-4200 that is gathering dust but it doesn't support
BF2.

Big Sky

 

[First of One]

Third, it is well know across the net that ATI series 97XX and 98XX cards
have overheating problems when running on motherboards with older VIA
chipsets (400 series as I have and earlier).

Running on certain motherboard chipsets won't cause the card to run hotter.
The 97xx and 98xx cards are not "well-known" to overheat. I had a 9800 Pro
running on an SiS 735 chipset, and later on a VIA KT800 chipset, and never
had overheating problems with either the stock cooler or AC VGA Silencer. In
fact, the card was quite happy when overclocked to 9800XT speeds at stock
voltage.

I have a similar issue with a 9700 Pro running on a KT300 VIA chipset. I
had to use ATI tray tools to set the AGP at 4x and turn off fast writes to
prevent the black screens.

So it actually isn't an overheating issue, despite what you said in the
original post. I had to drop the AGP speed to 4x on my KT800 board, too. At
AGP 8x Battlefield 2 would freeze about about 5 minutes, but it didn't give
a black screen. Since AGP 4x doesn't degrade game performance at all, it
wasn't an issue. This has nothing to do with heat, but ATi and VIA's AGP
implementation. If SmartGART worked as it should, the AGP speed would have
been automatically limited at 4x and you wouldn't see this problem with the
9700 Pro.

I couldn't increase the AGP voltage as suggested because my motherboards
don't support that option.

Increasing the AGP voltage usually isn't necessary for stability. The only
time it may be useful is overclocking the motherboard, where the frequency
dividers may not allow the AGP clock to remain at its original value with a
higher FSB clock.

Using older ATI drivers or Omega drivers adds some stability but
invariably the 9800 Pro gets very hot...at least the memory does even
though I have large copper heatsinks on them.

Keep in mind anything over 50C will feel very hot to the touch. So unless
you are measuring the temperature with an instrument, you won't know if the
card is running *excessively* hot. If the heat sinks are getting hot, then
they are doing their job of whisking the heat away from the chip and
exposing it to the airstream.

So, I'm on top of the cooling issue. I think this card is either going
bad OR its just a manifestation of this VIA-ATI-driver issue that is
plagueing these older cards. It almost seems like ATI is trying to get us
to upgrade our cards on purpose.

Any newer ATi or nVidia card may have the same issue. In fact, some cards
were designed natively for PCIe and have to use a AGP bridge chip, adding
another layer of complexity. Your Ti4200 served you well because it was
limited to AGP 4x by design (fewer things to go wrong...). Hell, the Voodoo5
was once considered the stability king because it used no AGP functions.

 

[BigSky]

Well,

Yes and no.

There is a huge amount of stuff on the web about problems with the 9800
series and older VIA chipsets. It does seem that the problem lies in the
VIA GART drivers and Radeon SmartGart somewhere.

Last night I tried backing down to AGP 4x with the new 754 motherboard and
was able to run BF2 at 1024x768 and medium settings without problems for 40
minutes. Then today we loaded up Star Wars BF2 and Rome Total War. We got
about 15-20 minutes into each one and ended up with a black screen and
reboot. Don't know if running the older 5.6 drivrs is the problem, Diamond
xtreme sound card issues, or just an old video card starting to go bad. Its
really frustrating. I'm really tempted to just go for a new video card but
keeping wondering if its just one setting or another that is causing these
problems with newer games.

Any ideas???

BigSky

 

[Greg Campbell]

Well,

Yes and no.

There is a huge amount of stuff on the web about problems with the 9800
series and older VIA chipsets. It does seem that the problem lies in the
VIA GART drivers and Radeon SmartGart somewhere.

Last night I tried backing down to AGP 4x with the new 754 motherboard and
was able to run BF2 at 1024x768 and medium settings without problems for 40
minutes. Then today we loaded up Star Wars BF2 and Rome Total War. We got
about 15-20 minutes into each one and ended up with a black screen and
reboot. Don't know if running the older 5.6 drivrs is the problem, Diamond
xtreme sound card issues, or just an old video card starting to go bad. Its
really frustrating. I'm really tempted to just go for a new video card but
keeping wondering if its just one setting or another that is causing these
problems with newer games.

Any ideas???

BigSky

It's also possible that the card has a cracked solder joint or three
that only breaks contact whent he card gets throroughly warmed up. Fire
up your game of choice, and gently, slightly, bend the card back and
forth. If it freaks out immediately, you've got a physical isssue.

-Greg

 

[First of One]

Well, if all else fails, upgrade the video card. The 7600GS and X800 Pro /
GTO are fast enough to run BF2 with transparency AA, so you get a meaningful
improvement in image quality. Just be prepared to use some of the tricks as
before (dropping to AGP 4x is almost a given).

 

[BigSky]

Looks like BFII crashes after 15 minutes or so causing a reboot on both my
9700Pro (2800+ socket A KT333, onboard sound) and my 9800Pro (Semp 3100+
socket 754 nForce 3, Diamond xTreme 7.1 sound). I turned off fast writes
and set the AGP to 4X. I'll try updating my drivers to the lastest
recommended by ATI and dropping down to 800x600 and turn off any hardware
sound acceleration.

Rome Total War lasted beyond 40 minutes with the 9800Pro and fast writes
turned off but eventually crashed.

Man, stink.

 

[Frodo]

Reloading/updating motherboard chipset drivers might help.