6800GT vs. X800Pro...with an eye to the future

D

dookie

Hey y'all,

I'm reentering the gaming world after a long hiatus. How long? I'm
replacing a 2xP2/300, 384mb, Voodoo3, AWE64 rig! I'm going to ask the same
question that everyone is these days, but hopefully a little more
intelligently than "DudE! My mOm say she'll h00k me up with eItheR. Which
iZ da bizzy-b0mB?" I've been reading everything I can, and I have some very
specific questions (the answer to many of which will be "only time will
tell" I suspect). I'd appreciate logical and informed responses (what? On
Usenet?). The email address herein is legit (after you remove the obvious),
if you prefer to stay out of the fray.

The new rig is an Athlon XP 3200+ with 1gb DDR400. This is not up for
debate. The price was *very* right and it's already purchased (~$225 for
CPU, cooler, case, motherboard, 400w power supply, tax and shipping). I'm
not very interested in overclocking anything. The question is which $400
GPU to put in it, the 6800GT or the X800Pro, if I'm planning to have this
box as long as I did my last. Availability is not an issue...I happen to
have both cards right here in front of me (an ATI and a PNY, both still in
cellophane) . Yes, I *am* a bitch.

So, with *only* the X800Pro and 6800GT in mind...

Performance:
We've all seen the Doom3 benchmarks. Big whoop...this is not the only game
I'll be playing. On the other hand, a great engine will get a lot of reuse.
Is it realistic to believe that ATI will a) be able to, and b) choose to fix
the OpenGL performance of the X800Pro. Or is it a) crippled by its
12-pipeline architecture and lack of Shader 3.0 support, and/or b) doomed at
birth by the promise of a near-term declocked 16-pipe card (the so-called
X800GT)?
And in the other camp, plenty of benchmarks show the two cards pretty much
neck and neck in DirectX games today, with perhaps a slight advantage to
ATI. Will 9.0c (and its Shader 3.0 support) change much? How important is
Shader 3.0 support really?

Noise:
Anybody with real world experience with both? I understand the 6800GT is
loud. I spend my days in climate-controlled server rooms, so a little
machine whirr ain't no big thing. On the other hand, the rig will be left
on pretty much all the time in a very open-architecture house. Will I hear
it in the next room?

Hacks:
Not that I'll be jacking around with my $400 toy any time soon, but it's
widely reported that BIOS flashes are a poor man's upgrade. As I understand
it, the chipsets that don't pass muster to be part of an XT / Ultra PCB are
then tested to lower (ie: Pro / GT) standards. So the probability of
flashing actually improving anything depends on how 'broken' the individual
GPU is? Furthermore, my X800 is probably not a VIVO version, which I
understand means it is not flashable to an XT regardless? Whereas all GT's
are capable? Has anyone actually performed a flash on either of these
cards?

What else bears consideration? I've got a couple weeks to make a decision
and I know they're both great cards. Nor am I particularly loyal to (or
vengeful against) either manufacturer.

Thanks for any and all input,

Dookie
 
P

Philburg2

Well from almost every test I've seen, the 6800GT destroys the x800 pro by
several fps, not just a few. The 6800GT also has several features like
PS3.0 that will be enabled and optimized in future drivers so performance
will only go up. I think the more future proof card is the 6800GT.
 
J

JB

Performance:
We've all seen the Doom3 benchmarks. Big whoop...this is not the only game
I'll be playing. On the other hand, a great engine will get a lot of reuse.
Is it realistic to believe that ATI will a) be able to, and b) choose to fix
the OpenGL performance of the X800Pro.

The obvious answer is "no". If they could, they would have long ago.
It's not like ATI is just now finding out they do OGL poorly.

Noise:
Anybody with real world experience with both? I understand the 6800GT is
loud. I spend my days in climate-controlled server rooms, so a little
machine whirr ain't no big thing. On the other hand, the rig will be left
on pretty much all the time in a very open-architecture house. Will I hear
it in the next room?


Hacks:
Not that I'll be jacking around with my $400 toy any time soon, but it's
widely reported that BIOS flashes are a poor man's upgrade. As I understand
it, the chipsets that don't pass muster to be part of an XT / Ultra PCB are
then tested to lower (ie: Pro / GT) standards. So the probability of
flashing actually improving anything depends on how 'broken' the individual
GPU is?

Don't believe everything you hear. The x800pro CANNOT be
turned into a x800xt by the so-called '16 pipe fix', or BIOS flash. I
tried it
on my x800pro, so I know what I'm talking about. Aside from adjusting
the clocks with ATI tool, however it runs
OOTB is the best it will ever run. Of course you must use ATI tool to
adjust the clocks so the card will run at full speed, they are
terribly underclocked OOTB.

Jeff B
 
B

Bean

JB said:
The obvious answer is "no". If they could, they would have long ago.
It's not like ATI is just now finding out they do OGL poorly.



Don't believe everything you hear. The x800pro CANNOT be
turned into a x800xt by the so-called '16 pipe fix', or BIOS flash. I
tried it
on my x800pro, so I know what I'm talking about. Aside from adjusting
the clocks with ATI tool, however it runs
OOTB is the best it will ever run. Of course you must use ATI tool to
adjust the clocks so the card will run at full speed, they are
terribly underclocked OOTB.

Jeff B

Actually is is known that ATI is in the progress of redoing the Opengl
Dirvers. Betatesters have said this and also people on the Catalyst team.
Ask around the rage3d forums for more info. Yes the x800 pro can be hacked
and then have its bios flashed to be a x800xt, but it wont work on every
card. You where just unclucky. When you hack it your enabling the extra 4
pipelines. Most likley one or more of those extra 4 pipelines was defective,
and that is why it didnt work for you. The lucky ones with the working 4
pipelines got there hack to work fine. Its more of a 50/50 chance that the
hack will work.

Bean
 
A

Andrew MacPherson

The x800pro CANNOT be turned into a x800xt by
the so-called '16 pipe fix', or BIOS flas

I think the successes come from x800Pro *VIVO* cards. Mine (a European
brand, Club) has certainly flashed to 16 pipes and benchmarks improved
nicely even though it doesn't quite handle XT core speeds (memory goes all
the way to 600 though without obvious issues... other than heat,
obviously). This probably explains why it has an XT sticker covered over
by a Pro sticker on the heatsink.

I wouldn't want anyone to rely on this though, even if early indications
show a lot of success with VIVO cards. The 9800se VIVO I bought a while
back was supposed to softmod to a 9800Pro and it most certainly didn't.
Its extra pipelines were disabled for a reason... they were totally
f*cked :)

Anyway, to the original poster... I switched to ATI last year when I
bought a 2nd hand 9700Pro. Now I don't particularly care about getting
every last FPS out of D3, and it's quite possible Nvidia have won the
hardware crown back in this generation. But I was very impressed with the
9700Pro... and all it lacked was some speed when engaging x4FSAA. I bought
the x800 for that reason (ok, and the fact that D3's coming :) and I'd
have no problem recommending it.

If I wasn't already on board the ATI bus I might well have been swayed by
the Nvidia benchmarks, but I also haven't forgiven them for buying 3dfx
and not using their vastly superior FSAA methods (slow or not). The V5
still has a soft spot in my heart... just next to the empty place in my
wallet ;-)

Andrew McP
 
D

Dr. Richard Cranium

3dfx!! right on!! Nvidia sucks for that dragging 3dfx through the muck and
mire with false advertising/law suits that were intended to just deplete
3dfx's bank accounts so Nvidia could purchase the 3dfx carcass. gawd. that
really pisses me off. !!!!!

http://www.smokeypoint.com/3dfx.htm

memory flogger:
http://www.smokeypoint.com/flash.htm

a fortiori

** No Fate **

cheers,
dracman
Tomb Raider: Shotgun City
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb.htm
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http://www.smokeypoint.com/uzi.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb2.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/medipak.htm

**savegame editors all versions Tomb Raider & TRAOD godmode
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tr2code.htm

http://www.smokeypoint.org/farCry.htm

http://www.smokeypoint.com/My_PC.htm

** Win2k and winXP hi-res with TR1
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** Tomb Raider 1 add on UB levels
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb2.htm#Tova

** GTA III vice City Character MOD
http://www.smokeypoint.com/uzi.htm#gta3



.... so much of me...



Andrew MacPherson said:
I think the successes come from x800Pro *VIVO* cards. Mine (a European
brand, Club) has certainly flashed to 16 pipes and benchmarks improved
nicely even though it doesn't quite handle XT core speeds (memory goes all
the way to 600 though without obvious issues... other than heat,
obviously). This probably explains why it has an XT sticker covered over
by a Pro sticker on the heatsink.

I wouldn't want anyone to rely on this though, even if early indications
show a lot of success with VIVO cards. The 9800se VIVO I bought a while
back was supposed to softmod to a 9800Pro and it most certainly didn't.
Its extra pipelines were disabled for a reason... they were totally
f*cked :)

Anyway, to the original poster... I switched to ATI last year when I
bought a 2nd hand 9700Pro. Now I don't particularly care about getting
every last FPS out of D3, and it's quite possible Nvidia have won the
hardware crown back in this generation. But I was very impressed with the
9700Pro... and all it lacked was some speed when engaging x4FSAA. I bought
the x800 for that reason (ok, and the fact that D3's coming :) and I'd
have no problem recommending it.

If I wasn't already on board the ATI bus I might well have been swayed by
the Nvidia benchmarks, but I also haven't forgiven them for buying 3dfx
and not using their vastly superior FSAA methods (slow or not). The V5
still has a soft spot in my heart... just next to the empty place in my
wallet ;-)

Andrew McP




.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
 
A

Andrew MacPherson

Nvidia sucks for that dragging 3dfx through the muck

I agree, but 3dfx were fairly big contributors to their own demise, sadly.
Their hardware always seemed to be a little too slow and a little too late
to keep profits up.

But I still bought a v1,2,3 and 5... though rarely when they were hot off
the press, so I probably didn't help keep them afloat much.

Andrew McP
 
M

Minotaur

Bean said:
Actually is is known that ATI is in the progress of redoing the Opengl
Dirvers. Betatesters have said this and also people on the Catalyst team.
Ask around the rage3d forums for more info. Yes the x800 pro can be hacked
and then have its bios flashed to be a x800xt, but it wont work on every
card. You where just unclucky. When you hack it your enabling the extra 4
pipelines. Most likley one or more of those extra 4 pipelines was defective,
and that is why it didnt work for you. The lucky ones with the working 4
pipelines got there hack to work fine. Its more of a 50/50 chance that the
hack will work.

Bean

Yes because it only works on, VIVO equiped cards.
I thought that was common knowledge by now?
 
J

JB

Yes the x800 pro can be hacked
and then have its bios flashed to be a x800xt, but it wont work on every
card.

Believe what you want, I have proof that the hack doesn't work.

Jeff B
 
J

JB

Yes because it only works on, VIVO equiped cards.
I thought that was common knowledge by now?

What do you mean, VIVO equiped cards? All x800pros are the same,
right?

Jeff B
 
J

JB

Actually is is known that ATI is in the progress of redoing the Opengl
Dirvers. Betatesters have said this and also people on the Catalyst team.

So what are you saying, Doom3 etc. is about to suddenly run great on ATI
hardware? So the benchmarks run by ID software mean nothing??
LOL! If ATI knew how to fix the problem, they would have done so
long ago. To think otherwise is to set yourself up for a big
dissappointment.

Jeff B
 
A

Andrew MacPherson

What do you mean, VIVO equiped cards? All x800pros are the same,
right?

VIVO cards have an additional (Rage Theatre?) ATI chip and associated
stuff to allow capture etc., so no, they're not all the same.

Andrew McP
 
M

Minotaur

Andrew said:
VIVO cards have an additional (Rage Theatre?) ATI chip and associated
stuff to allow capture etc., so no, they're not all the same.

Andrew McP

Correct.

From waht I have read everywhere, they are the same as the XT PCB.
But have 4 pipes disabled in the BIOS, flashing it is supposed to make
it perform like an XT. Going from the posts I have seen most have been
100% successful, but did spot one where a guy had trouble raising his
GPU speed.

Was going to go with one of those VIVO cards or a nVidia GT :|
Tax return time, so deciding in the next few weeks! :) & the GT is ahead
so far in my choice :|

Minotaur *8)
 
M

Mike P

uh, no, you have proff that you couldn't do it, either because of an unlucky
card or alack of knowledge.

Mike
 
J

JB

Mike said:
uh, no, you have proff that you couldn't do it, either because of an unlucky
card or alack of knowledge.

Mike

No, you are going by "some guy said". I actually did the mod,
you didn't. I have hands-on experience, you have nothing. Therefore,
by definition,
I'm right and you're wrong.

Jeff B
 
J

JB

Mike said:
uh, no, you have proff that you couldn't do it,

Mike

"Jeff, you're wrong because I say you are wrong, and for no other reason".

As long as you keep commenting from a position of
"I have no experience in this matter" and have absolutely
NO knowledge, and can only parrot what others have said,
I will continue to correct you.

So stop falsely accusing me of being a screwup, or don't and
this thread will last forever.

Jeff B
 
D

dookie

it already has. it's way past time both of you shut the hell up. i should
have known better to ask on usenet...

dookie
 
J

JB

VIVO
Video In Video Out

The Pro's don't have the Video In

So, since the pro's don't have the video in, and the mod works
only on cards with video in, the mod doesn't work on pro's which is
exactly what I proved with my experiment. Thanks for clearing that up.

Jeff B
 
F

First of One

The V5's FSAA methods were employed in the GF3 and higher cards. GF3's 2x
FSAA uses rotated-grid multi-sampling just like the V5, while 4x FSAA uses
ordered-grid.

Do you have an AthlonXP/64 or Pentium4? Did the P4's vastly superior Quake
III engine scores play a part in your decision?
 

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