1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility

  • Thread starter Bernhard Kuemel
  • Start date
J

Joerg

I asked a co-worker who was fluent in Chinese about this once. If I
remember right, he said that he could read written Chinese as old as a
couple of thousand years and it would pretty much make sense. He also
said that he could understand written Japanese, but if he tried to
speak it, someone fluent in spoken Japanese wouldn't understand him;
the pronunciation would be wrong.

I was totally surprised this week when I worked with several Chinese
scientists at our university. I asked why they don't speak Mandarin or
Cantonese when among themselves. "He is from Shanghai and we are from
the north so we can't understand each other at all".

[...]
 
B

benj

More recently, the ability to convert arbitrary text into DNA, and to
read the text back gives us a way to store huge amounts of binary
information for millennia.

Only the effectiveness of DNA is the hyper redundancy of constant
reproduction of backups by species reproduction. Even so the data slowly
drifts. And most interesting would be what kind of monster species robot
firmware DNA would create! :)
One can also store bulk binary on nickel sheet by writing code blocks in
hexadecimal, with embedded error correcting codes.

Wouldn't gold be better than nickel?
 
R

Robert Baer

Joerg said:
Robert said:
Bernhard said:
Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not
exist.

Hi!

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue,
if necessary.

I thought about this:

ROMs/PROMs, replacing them when checksum fails.
* add - 3 in "parallel" using majority logic for output a and checking.

But it's still semiconductor storage, susceptible to cosmic ray damage
and stuff. So should be shielded from that.
* see above.

* see above.

** Semiconductor storage is useless in a RAD environment.

Not if shielded. It must be the fuse type arrays, the non-reprogrammable
ones.
* Degrades - maybe not as fast as the old acetate movie films, but 100
year life is not realistic (but may be better in a RAD environment).

* of ideas mentioned,this seems the best. now,how does it get read?

By going on the Microsoft help pages. Not sure where the MSFT stock
price will be 1000 years from now though :)

glass CD/DVD
* maybe good enough for 20-10 years.
Paper [2]
* NOPE! Leather,if kept in a dry environment is at least an order of
magnitude better (eg: Dead Sea scrolls). Proven technology. Proven
characteristics. Good enough for a few thousand years.

Nope. The dead sea scrolls, like many other ancient documents, were
written on parchment paper and on papyrus. And they were just tucked
into a cave without much other protection.
* I have seen scrolls made with leather; the newest one was a mere 800
years old.
How the older ones were "protected" is relevant only to indicate
possible methods of long term storage.
Nowadays one could even engrave in porcelain with a laser. That's last
way longer than 1000 years if nobody runs the bulldozer over it.

[...]
 
T

Tim Williams

Joe Gwinn said:
DNA is actually pretty stable, if properly packaged. They got DNA from
Ötzi the iceman, who had been in the glacier for 5,300 years:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi>

Not under constant use, of course :)

Biological systems are robustly error correcting on all levels. On the
highest level, evolution simply discards unsuccessful DNA: it dies.

On the lowest levels, DNA is patched, copied, bundled and moved by
numerous cellular proteins (all of which are, themselves, constantly being
smashed up, recycled and re-synthesized directly from the very DNA they
serve; as far as I know, *no* non-structural chemicals inside the cell are
permanent, they are constantly being remade!).

Suppose a DNA mistake occurs anyway. Structural errors simply throw a
wrench in the works; the cell sacrifices itself for the greater good
(apoptosis). If the result is a coding error, the associated proteins or
whatever will change; most of these changes (that don't already result in
destruction) are apparently fairly innocuous, as there are a lot of
positions in a lot of proteins which have little functional impact.

If one of those changes happens to relate to immune system codes, however,
the body's immune system comes in and snuffs it out. Cancer is constantly
developing in our bodies; almost all of it fades out on its own or is
attacked. The unlucky ones that sneak past those defenses, and find the
mutations that allow unlimited growth, are the only ones we have trouble
with today.

The most striking difference between cells and automatons, besides the
complexity (as far as I know, no one has yet engineered a computer
operating system where the code constantly rewrites itself, from a
parametric, self-modifying source, as it copies and executes that very
code), is the simple fact that we don't have a freaking clue how to do it
efficiently.

Consider the amount of raw materials and power required to operate a
machine shop, continuously, turning out parts not just for the robots
doing the work, but replacement parts for the machines making them. Then
consider the amount of power required to operate the foundry to melt and
recast the metal parts, off-cuts and waste. Finally, consider the amount
of power required to operate a complete chemical recycling plant, to
recover metal from the inevitable oxides generated in the foundry, machine
shop and from general corrosion, plus recycling and reformulating all the
lubricants, fuels, and other waste products produced in the process.

And now try running your self-replicating factory from a robust power
source like thermocouples!

The turnover of most cells apparently is on the order of 10 years,
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/198208.article
but the most rapid are white cells (not mentioned in the article, but as I
recall, they're just a day or two) and intestinal lining (a few days),
while the oldest don't reproduce at all. So, of course, it would be quite
reasonable to build something like a solar Stirling engine, which wears
out frequently due to poor materials (suppose we're recycling the same
1020 mild steel for everything structural, no abrasion-resistant alloys,
no lightweight alloys, no bearing metal) and poor lubricants (which we're
recycling and reforming, so must be simple, something like mineral oil
let's say), but because there's a million of them each producing a little
bit of the power needed, and a thousand are constantly being rebuilt, who
cares? That's 99.9% uptime right there. Oh, and that's the other
biological advantage, strength in numbers...

Tim
 
C

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

Bernhard Kuemel wrote:

had to snip
Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.

Tada!

http://www.techspot.com/news/50313-...-storage-data-may-last-100-million-years.html
 
U

upsidedown

True, it is an animal product. But some of the dead sea scrolls were
written on papyrus and that is not animal-based.

Some of the scrolls were preserved, since they were burned. By
carefully unrolling some burned scrolls, the text could actually be
recovered.
 
U

upsidedown

It would, but would attract tomb raiders. Not the pretty kind.

What is the difference between medieval and 1930-2013 tomb raiders ??

Some of these tomb raiders tried to move the artifacts to a "safe"
location like Berlin that was destroyed in WW2.
 
C

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

What is the difference between medieval and 1930-2013 tomb raiders ??

Some of these tomb raiders tried to move the artifacts to a "safe"
location like Berlin that was destroyed in WW2.


Nickel oxidizes. Gold does not. Better still is Platinum, which would
be my choice.
 
U

upsidedown

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue,
if necessary.

These days, if you want to preserve our whole cultural heritage to the
future generations, the only way is to copy every 2-5 year to the best
available medium at that time. Of course, this requires a constantly
working society (no centuries breaks between Roman and medieval
European societies).

In previous centuries, monks did the copying, these days electronic
devices with short life time will do the copying.

I started my career within IT when 80 column punched cards, 5/8
channel paper tapes and 7/9 channel 1/2" magnetic tapes were common.
These days, it is not of a problem to read a punched card or a strip
of a 1/2 inch paper tape on simple flatbed scanner.
 
F

FatBytestard

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue,
if necessary.

These days, if you want to preserve our whole cultural heritage to the
future generations, the only way is to copy every 2-5 year to the best
available medium at that time. Of course, this requires a constantly
working society (no centuries breaks between Roman and medieval
European societies).

In previous centuries, monks did the copying, these days electronic
devices with short life time will do the copying.

I started my career within IT when 80 column punched cards, 5/8
channel paper tapes and 7/9 channel 1/2" magnetic tapes were common.
These days, it is not of a problem to read a punched card or a strip
of a 1/2 inch paper tape on simple flatbed scanner.


Go look at the medium I posted a link to.

Easy to keep a copy and a full redundant and even do that redundantly
across geographic sites. The hard part is the data element retrieval
machinery. That gantry system has to be low consumption, long term life
span motors and sealed bearing gantry systems. THAT hardware would
require maintenance. Easier to move the retrieval head than the columns
of stacks of media.
 
C

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

But keep it dry. Silica does dissolve in water, slowly. Information
carried in surface pits will soon disappear.

READ the article, Mr. Quick Glance! The data is written to internal
structures.

Optical cubes would be where a multi-layered version would go.
 
C

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

Chieftain said:
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:

had to snip
Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.



Thanks, Bernhard


[1]
http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html
http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta

[2]
something like http://ronja.twibright.com/optar/

[3]
A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind
uploading (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#Serial_sectioning ) becomes
possible.
Tada!

http://www.techspot.com/news/50313-...-storage-data-may-last-100-million-years.html


Sorry; not even this planet is good for that...

Yer an idiot. The Mayans saw far further back than a punk like you.
this planet is good for a long time.
..give qualified "maybe" for 100 year period (no excessive RAD dosages
for one).

You are an idiot, and you obviously did not read the article.

It is impervious to radiation, you dumb dork wanna be.
 
R

Robert Baer

Chieftain said:
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:

had to snip
Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.

Tada!

http://www.techspot.com/news/50313-...-storage-data-may-last-100-million-years.html
Sorry; not even this planet is good for that...
...give qualified "maybe" for 100 year period (no excessive RAD dosages
for one).
 
N

nuny

Chieftain said:
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
had to snip
Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.
Thanks, Bernhard
[1]
http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html
http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta
[2]
something likehttp://ronja.twibright.com/optar/
[3]
A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind
uploading (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#Serial_sectioning) becomes
possible.
   Tada!
http://www.techspot.com/news/50313-hitachi-unveils-quartz-based-stora....
  Sorry; not even this planet is good for that...

  Yer an idiot.  The Mayans saw far further back than a punk like you..
this planet is good for a long time.

The past does not predict the future.
  You are an idiot, and you obviously did not read the article.

  It is impervious to radiation, you dumb dork wanna be.

*You* obviously did not read the article; it says nothing about
radiation resistance. Google "silica ionizing radiation". Even very
mild dosage can add up over 1ky, especially if granite is a major
component of the proposed site.


Mark L. Fergerson
 
A

Arno

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage [email protected] said:
Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
had to snip
Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.
[3]
A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind
uploading (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#Serial_sectioning) becomes
possible.
   Tada!

  Yer an idiot.  The Mayans saw far further back than a punk like you.
this planet is good for a long time.
The past does not predict the future.

I fear that this rather obvious idea is beyond him. The profanity
is a dead giveaway that he actually suspects his own incompetence.
No need to be so defensive otherwise.
*You* obviously did not read the article; it says nothing about
radiation resistance. Google "silica ionizing radiation". Even very
mild dosage can add up over 1ky, especially if granite is a major
component of the proposed site.

For some reason, there are a lot of people with big egos and
low itelligence that want to believe these marketing lies.
Never ceases to amaze me. It is also fascinating that the
most significant (and well-known in the data archival community)
problem is blatantly ignored: The equipment for reading the
storage devices needs to survive as well and the software for
processing it and hardware it runs on too. That means this
hardware has to stay in production, as these components will
have a shelf-life well below 30 years.

Arno
 
N

nuny

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
had to snip
Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.
Thanks, Bernhard
[1]
http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html
http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta
[2]
something likehttp://ronja.twibright.com/optar/
[3]
A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind
uploading (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#Serial_sectioning) becomes
possible.
Tada!
http://www.techspot.com/news/50313-hitachi-unveils-quartz-based-stora...
Sorry; not even this planet is good for that...
Yer an idiot. The Mayans saw far further back than a punk like you.
this planet is good for a long time.
 The past does not predict the future.

I fear that this rather obvious idea is beyond him. The profanity
is a dead giveaway that he actually suspects his own incompetence.
No need to be so defensive otherwise.

Yeah, I know. At least one other in this thread exhibits similar
tendencies.
For some reason, there are a lot of people with big egos and
low itelligence that want to believe these marketing lies.
Never ceases to amaze me. It is also fascinating that the
most significant (and well-known in the data archival community)
problem is blatantly ignored: The equipment for reading the
storage devices needs to survive as well and the software for
processing it and hardware it runs on too. That means this
hardware has to stay in production, as these components will
have a shelf-life well below 30 years.

I made the assumption that the robots themselves would be the "read
hardware". I suggested (as an extreme example) a big slab of stone/
osmiridium/whatever inscribed with all the instructions they'd need to
maintain the facility and themselves as literal zeroes and ones, to be
read by the robots themselves.

Crude, but considering the requirements, suitable.


Mark L. Fergerson
 
U

Uwe Hercksen

Joerg said:
Consult the Romans, they knew how to do it :)

Hello,

I dont think of some (still impressive) ruins left, I think of a
complete functional building with water tight roofs and walls without
cracks to look throu.

Bye
 
J

Joerg

Uwe said:
Hello,

I dont think of some (still impressive) ruins left, I think of a
complete functional building with water tight roofs and walls without
cracks to look throu.

Close up an upper arch on this one and you have it:

http://img.bhs4.com/c1/1/c1178e8e5eebd662e90be377d783cb64fedb50ac_large.jpg

I think that's an aquaduct at Nimes in France. Maison Carree would also
work, with even less effort:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/roman/carree03.jpg

A smaller edition in Croatia, maybe they had some budget cuts in Rome:

http://www.roman-empire.net/tours/empire/pics/pula/templeaugustus-pula2.jpg
 
C

Clifford Heath

I made the assumption that the robots themselves would be the "read
hardware"

All this prompts the question of whether human culture will last, to
the point that anyone will care about decoding 1's and 0's in 1000yr.

If it does, one might assume that there are times during that period
where interest is sufficient to copy to new or better media.

I still have files that have survived five generations of media tech.
 
A

Arno

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage [email protected] said:
I made the assumption that the robots themselves would be the "read
hardware". I suggested (as an extreme example) a big slab of stone/
osmiridium/whatever inscribed with all the instructions they'd need to
maintain the facility and themselves as literal zeroes and ones, to be
read by the robots themselves.
Crude, but considering the requirements, suitable.

Mark L. Fergerson

At this time, this would either requirting hard-coding all possible
modes this can break down with recovery instructions (infeasible)
or true AI in there (likely infeasible as well). Maybe in a few
hundred years something like this project could be undertaken,
but today they do not even know how to statically mark a
nuclear waste facility in a way suitable for warn people away
for the forseeable future.

Arno
 

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