Xenon - Xbox360 getting embedded DRAM confirmed. NEC will manufacture the eDRAM graphics chip

E

Evgenij Barsukov

Paul said:
That is the list price, which can be quite arbitrary, but the price
paid by a very large customer reflects much more accurately the
production costs. The number of defect chips on a wafer is directly
proportional to the chip area (complexity).

This is correct. Howver, the number of defect chips is about 5% after
production is decently ramped up.
Assuming that the dual core chip would be twice as large as a single
core chip, the number of dual core chips obtained from a wafer would
be one half of single core chips, thus the price would have to be
twice to cover the wafer costs.

Here is where the logic got screwed. If you have defects in 5% of chips
before doubling the complexity, and even if we follow strictly your
assertion that defects double, it will mean we have now 10% defects, and
by no means have half of the good chips per wafer - that means instead
of 95% good chips we now have 90% good chips.
This have increased the price by whole 5%.

Regards,
Evgenij
 
D

David Wang

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith R. Williams said:
Could be, but it's irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Can't be. It may still be irrelevant to the issue at hand, but the
facts here are incorrect.

The difference between 386SX and 386DX is the pinout, not the FPU.
386's never had integrated FPU's.

The difference between 486SX and 486DX is the presence/absence of an
FPU.

For bonus points, figure out what a 487SX was without looking it up in
reference texts.
 
K

Keith R. Williams

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith R. Williams said:
Can't be. It may still be irrelevant to the issue at hand, but the
facts here are incorrect.

Ok. ;-)
The difference between 386SX and 386DX is the pinout, not the FPU.
386's never had integrated FPU's.

The difference between 486SX and 486DX is the presence/absence of an
FPU.

For bonus points, figure out what a 487SX was without looking it up in
reference texts.

A 486DX with the integer CPU disabled?
 
J

Janne Blomqvist

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith R. Williams said:
No soup for you.

I have a vague recollection that it was a complete 486DX, which
disabled the original 486SX upon installation?

Wasn't this the age of "Intel Overdrive" or whatever it was called?
 
P

Paul Keinanen

Baloney. No one sells silicon, particularly something with as much IP
in it as a processor, for anything close to "production costs", to
*ANYONE*. Selling at close to cost isn't a good way to pay the note on
a multi-billion dollar fab, a hundred million in engineers salaries,
while leaving enough to keep the stock holders happy.

Of course you have to include the investment amortisation into the
"production cost" at some expected production volume. However, the
early "list price" charged from early adaptors can be quite arbitrary.
Maybe, sorta. Good enough for a first swag, anyway. Large caches give
opportunities to change these simple rules somewhat. But that has
nothing to do with the issue at hand.

This again depends if there are only core specific caches or just a
common cache on the chip.
Oh, so now they're going to increase the chip size yet again to add a
fourth core (and all the interconnect) knowing that they're going to
throw it away? Yikes! The cores we're talking about aren't a sq. mm.

Those 4 core chips are made for customers that really need them and
are willing to pay the premium price for them.

These customers might not be willing to pay anything for chips with
one or two defective chips. Instead of scrapping these chips, there
might be others that are paying something for chips with 2 or 3
functional cores. It makes perfectly sense for the chip maker to sell
these chips instead of scrapping them.

However, if the demand for three core chips exceeds the amount of
partially faulty four core chips, only then it makes sense to produce
chips with a mask for only three cores. This threshold depends how the
yield for the 4 core chips is developing and how fast the demand for 3
core chips is growing.
Sure, partial-good strategies have been used for memories for a *long*
time, but memory <> processors.

With a sufficiently large number of cores on a chip, we are
approaching a similar tradeoff.

Paul
 
K

Keith R. Williams

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith R. Williams said:
No soup for you.
Well, I wuz close. It _is_ a 486DX with an integer processor disabled.
I was just wrong about which one was disabled. ;-) The gray-matter
ain't what it used to be and all that Intel marketeering drivel has a
short half-life.
 
K

Keith R. Williams

Of course you have to include the investment amortisation into the
"production cost" at some expected production volume. However, the
early "list price" charged from early adaptors can be quite arbitrary.

Ok, but you still haven't added in the hundred million or so in
engineering costs and enough to make the stock holders feel good about
your risking a few billion of their dollars. Intel didn't make money
by the boatload$ they have stashed away by selling at anything close to
production costs.
This again depends if there are only core specific caches or just a
common cache on the chip.

No, it doesn't. Your simple analysis only applies to random defect
density. Caches are far more tolerant of defects than logic.
Those 4 core chips are made for customers that really need them and
are willing to pay the premium price for them.

What four core chips? What four core customers? We were discussing
XBox and its supposed three cores and its cost/price.
These customers might not be willing to pay anything for chips with
one or two defective chips. Instead of scrapping these chips, there
might be others that are paying something for chips with 2 or 3
functional cores. It makes perfectly sense for the chip maker to sell
these chips instead of scrapping them.
However, if the demand for three core chips exceeds the amount of
partially faulty four core chips, only then it makes sense to produce
chips with a mask for only three cores. This threshold depends how the
yield for the 4 core chips is developing and how fast the demand for 3
core chips is growing.

I think you need to read the thread again. We were not discussing this
at all (forget the fact that such things don't exist and aren't even
being talked about).
With a sufficiently large number of cores on a chip, we are
approaching a similar tradeoff.

Nonsense. Processors don't have anything approaching the granularity
of redundancy that memory devices do.
 
T

Terje Mathisen

David said:
The difference between 486SX and 486DX is the presence/absence of an
FPU.

For bonus points, figure out what a 487SX was without looking it up in
reference texts.

Can I try?

(SPOILER ALERT)

































A 487SX to be used together with an FPU-less 486 is in effect a stock
486 (486DX), but with one or two pins changed, so that it would fit in
the non-compatible additional socket.

Plug it in and the original cpu becomes a dummy load.

Terje
 
T

Tony Hill

Oh, my. Two or three cores is "relatively simple"? I think you should
tell AMD and Intel this. IITC, the price=sheet for AMD's dual core chip
showed something north of $1500.

Come now Keith.. aren't you the one that is always telling us that the
price has almost nothing to do with the cost to manufacture? AMD's
dual-core chips (which currently start at $1500, but with cheaper
versions expected soon) are only a 200mm^2 die. Not small by any
measure, but we've seen much cheaper chips that also had 200mm^2 dies.
In fact, the difference in die size between the original Opteron made
on a 130nm process and the new dual-core chips made on a 90nm process
is quite small.

That being said, I see nothing at all "simple" about the PowerPC core
that MS is planning on using in the XBox2. As I understand it the
core is going to be closely related to the PPC 970, which at ~55M
transistors (and that with only 512KB of cache) is not all that
simple.
an ATI R500 graphics chip,

No difference.


<yawn> DRAM is DRAM.

What I really don't understand here is how you have "Embedded DRAM" in
a separate chip... Uhh.. doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of
the RAM being "embedded"?
 
K

keith

Come now Keith.. aren't you the one that is always telling us that the
price has almost nothing to do with the cost to manufacture?

Absolutely! You too had better read this thread again.
AMD's dual-core chips (which currently start at $1500, but with cheaper
versions expected soon) are only a 200mm^2 die. Not small by any
measure, but we've seen much cheaper chips that also had 200mm^2 dies.

Again, die size is irrelevant here. Die size can be corelated to cost,
but not price. ...which is my point. No one sells at or even *near* cost.
In fact, the difference in die size between the original Opteron made on
a 130nm process and the new dual-core chips made on a 90nm process is
quite small.

You really must read this thread again.
That being said, I see nothing at all "simple" about the PowerPC core
that MS is planning on using in the XBox2. As I understand it the core
is going to be closely related to the PPC 970, which at ~55M transistors
(and that with only 512KB of cache) is not all that simple.

Indeed. ;-)
What I really don't understand here is how you have "Embedded DRAM" in a
separate chip... Uhh.. doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the
RAM being "embedded"?

Umm, perhaps there is more on that chip? I have no clue what the system
architecture is, but to say a three-core PPC is "simple" is, err, simple!
 
R

R500 Xenon

keith said:
Absolutely! You too had better read this thread again.


Again, die size is irrelevant here. Die size can be corelated to cost,
but not price. ...which is my point. No one sells at or even *near*
cost.


You really must read this thread again.


Indeed. ;-)


Umm, perhaps there is more on that chip? I have no clue what the system
architecture is, but to say a three-core PPC is "simple" is, err, simple!

the Xenon / Xbox360 architecture is supposedly this:

diagram:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/news/2004-04/xbox2_scheme_bg.gif

hardware overview
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=231928

keep in mind, this diagram and overview came out over 1 year ago, and might
not be accurate or true. at the very least, they're both old, but likely
have grains of truth in them :)
 

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