Worth the upgrade?

V

Vormulac

Hi all,

I could use some advice. I am running Windows XP on an A7n8x-deluxe running
1005 with an old XP1700 cpu clocked at 2100. I am planning to upgrade soon
to a nice shiny 3200 cpu and an 9800Pro graphics card, but it has occurred
to me that my pair of aging deskstar HDDs could probably use replacing too.

Is it worth going for a S-ATA drive to replace (or augment) them with, as I
have seen mixed opinions on the merits of S-ATA so far. Also, if I do go
for S-ATA, will I need to muck around with BIOS/firmware/whatever?

Thanks all, I appreciate any advice you have to offer.
 
P

_P_e_ar_lALegend

Il Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:25:39 +0000, Vormulac ha scritto:
Hi all,

I could use some advice. I am running Windows XP on an A7n8x-deluxe running
1005 with an old XP1700 cpu clocked at 2100. I am planning to upgrade soon
to a nice shiny 3200 cpu and an 9800Pro graphics card

Are u sure it worth the money?

I would wait few month and go Athlon64. The improve in REAL performance
compared to your system are pretty much nothing.
, but it has occurred
to me that my pair of aging deskstar HDDs could probably use replacing too.

Is it worth going for a S-ATA drive to replace (or augment) them with, as I
have seen mixed opinions on the merits of S-ATA so far.

Yes, this is worth the cheap money u have to spend. SATA is absolutely
faster and go just for SATA replacing your old drives. Do not mix
drives. Go also for RAID 0: it is worth the boost in performance!
Also, if I do go
for S-ATA, will I need to muck around with BIOS/firmware/whatever?

No bios issues!
 
T

Travis King

Isn't it more difficult to install XP with SATA? If so, how do you install
XP with SATA? The same exact way that you do from scratch with IDE hard
drives?
 
P

_P_e_ar_lALegend

Il Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:13:07 +0000, Travis King ha scritto:
Isn't it more difficult to install XP with SATA? If so, how do you install
XP with SATA? The same exact way that you do from scratch with IDE hard
drives?

U just need the SATA drivers floppy and u press F6 at boot time when
install ask for third part drivers.

That's all.

If your motherboard do not come with a floppy, u just need to build one
yourself before install using the latest drivers on SI site or on your
install CD.
 
L

Leythos

Isn't it more difficult to install XP with SATA? If so, how do you install
XP with SATA? The same exact way that you do from scratch with IDE hard
drives?

You press F6 during the install and feed it the Floppy with the SATA
drivers on it, the rest is the same from that point.
 
B

Ben Pope

Vormulac said:
Hi all,

I could use some advice. I am running Windows XP on an A7n8x-deluxe
running 1005 with an old XP1700 cpu clocked at 2100. I am planning to
upgrade soon to a nice shiny 3200 cpu and an 9800Pro graphics card, but
it has occurred to me that my pair of aging deskstar HDDs could probably
use replacing too.

Is it worth going for a S-ATA drive to replace (or augment) them with, as
I have seen mixed opinions on the merits of S-ATA so far. Also, if I do go
for S-ATA, will I need to muck around with BIOS/firmware/whatever?

Thanks all, I appreciate any advice you have to offer.

SATA is just a different interface, there are no noticeable performance
gains due to the controller itself.

However, cabling is much neater, and it's the way of the future. I would go
SATA (well, I did. I have a WD360GD and a WD2500JD). That way you can be
assured native support on new motherboards. Hopefully IDE will be phased
out soon (I'd like to see native SATA support in the chipsets, and boards
without IDE as it will make routing much easier)

You should be ok with the BIOS, but I do recommend the latest. And a recent
SATA driver too.

As to whether the upgrade is worth it or not... Probably. But an
overclocked mobile 2500 would probably be friendlier on the wallet.

To fully appreciate the XP3200+ on the nForce2, you'll want PC3200.

Ben
 
S

Sept1967

Many S-ATA drives now, are the _SAME_ drives internal, as their P-ATA
versions.
Both Western Digital and Maxtor have just slapped a S-ATA adaptor on the
drive.
If it is still 7200RPM, 8Meg cache, both P-ATA and S-ATA will run the same
speed.

The theroritical max on P-ATA is 133, and S-ATA is 150. But if the drive
cannot spit out the data any faster then 100, both interfaces will act the
same.

You will need to go to a 10k or faster S-ATA drive to gain any speed, but
then again, you are just re-inventing the SCSI drive.
 
T

Tim

Yup, dead right.

I believe the only drives with native SATA are the seagate latest models (.7
and .8's) & the newly announced but not yet available Maxtor Maxline III's
with 16 MB cache. Even the Raptor apparently has an IDE / SATA bridge in it.
The Maxline drive is apparently about as fast as the raptor... so the speed
is in the drive, not the interface at the moment.

There is a reference to an interesting article over at www.2cpu.com at the
moment that puts a lot of peoples wacky ideas back on the straight:

The review is at:

http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200406/20040625TCQ_1.html

- Tim
 
B

Ben Pope

Leythos said:
SATA is much faster than standard IDE/133.

Not really.

Take my SiI3112A which is plugged into a PCI bus - it's limited to 133MB/s,
as is ATA133.

Oh, but lets assume the SATA controller is native, and that I can get
150MB/s. That is an increase of 12.5%, hardly "much". However, lets assume
it was a 1000MB/s, would that makes the drives any faster? No. It is the
mechanics of the drives that limits performance, not the interface.

If you compare a WD2500JB and a WD2500JD, they have about the same
performance, however, one is SATA and one is ATA. They're the same drive,
of course they have the same performance, the controller is not the limiting
factor.

Ben
 
P

_P_e_ar_lALegend

Is it worth going for a S-ATA drive to replace (or augment) them with, as
SATA is just a different interface, there are no noticeable performance
gains due to the controller itself.

That is not true. It improve performance a lot. Best sustained transfer,
best throughput, a feel of improved performance in every day use.

If u say so, u really never worked with SATA.

The difference between IDE and SATA is like the difference between the day
and the night. BTW, the interface is totally different and improved. Not
just simple drive swapping between interface ::-(((
 
V

Vormulac

Brilliant! Lots of really good advice, thanks guys!

You mention the latest BIOS would be a good idea, which one is the latest?
It seems like it varies depending upon whom you talk to!

Thanks again to all of you!
 
B

Ben Pope

_P_e_ar_lALegend said:
Il Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:57:41 +0100, Ben Pope ha scritto:


Please...

Please wait for your argument? The word "please" isn't very persuasive.

I have a understanding of the hardware issues at work. I have SATA drives.
I have looked at benchmarks. I do know.

My Raptor is SATA and is faster than any other ATA drive I know, but thats
'cos it's 10k rpm, not because it's SATA.

Do you have anything other than uninformed opinion to base your statements
on?

Ben
 
B

Ben Pope

_P_e_ar_lALegend said:
That is not true. It improve performance a lot. Best sustained transfer,
best throughput, a feel of improved performance in every day use.

Sustained transfer is not affected. (Name a drive that can approach a
sustained transfer of 100MB/s, let alone exceed 133MB/s). 70MB/s is the
absolute max I've seen from a drive.

In fact, you'd be hard pushed to consistently get a noticeable difference in
seek, transfer or any other benchmark. Unless you're only testing the cache
to host performance, which is rarely a limiting factor. Average cache size
on a quality new drive is 8 MB, with a transfer rate of around 60MB/s you
can empty it in 133ms, assuming that it's completely full with the data you
require. Hardly noticeable.

Take a 20Mb file, assume half of the cache holds that particular file, and
the drive has the following specs:

Sustained drive transfer speed of 50MB/s
Cache of 8Meg

I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume 100% efficiency of the
interface, i.e., 133MB/s and 150MB/s transfer between drive and host, and
then a faster link to the memory controller. That accesses from the cache
are instantaneous, and that the cached and data read from the platter are
not simultaneous. I will overlap the 10ms seek with the 100ms or so of
emptying the cache.

Total transfer time for an ATA133 drive:
(20-4)/50 + 4/133 = 0.32 + 0.03 = 0.35s

Total transfer time for a SATA150 drive:
(20-4)/50 + 4/150 = 0.32 + 0.026667 ~ 0.347s

Wow, thats an improvement of a MASSIVE 1%.

If anybody can be bothered to consider the fact that it can start caching
the file whilst it is emptying the cache then go ahead and do the calcs
again. It'll be a similar number.
If u say so, u really never worked with SATA.

Pah. I have 2 SATA drives. A WD360GD and a WD2500JD
The difference between IDE and SATA is like the difference between the day
and the night.

The difference between ATA133 and SATA150 is not that great. The protocols
are mostly the same.
BTW, the interface is totally different and improved. Not
just simple drive swapping between interface ::-(((


The physical interface is of course, quite different. It uses a
differential pair, not a parallel cable. (In this respect it is like USB or
IEEE1394) Connectors and cabling are therefore much different (and better).

Other advantages include support for TCQ (like SCSI) which may help
performance under high loading as it allows the drive to re-order queued
commands to reap best performance (essentially it can reduce the seeks
required, amongst other things).

Also, the commands have error checking, something that normal ATA doesn't
have. Both of course have error checking on the data.

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

Perhaps you should try reading, rather than making up what you say.

Oh, and if you're comparing a 3 year old ATA drive with a brand new SATA
drive, then you're not really playing fair, are you?

Check a benchmark for say, a WD2500JB and a WD2500JD. They are the same
drive, one has ATA100 or 133, the other is SATA. I think you'll find that
the SATA has a marginally reduced performance due to the bridge required -
not noticeable without accurate benchmarks though (and thats tricky on a
drive). Native SATA drives should not differ noticeably, but I wouldn't
expect them to be slower than ATA.

The difference between night and day? Do you perchance live close to a
pole, such that you have ~6 months of light and 6 of dark (very similar
night and days)?

I look forward to your comments.

Ben
 
B

Ben Pope

Vormulac said:
Brilliant! Lots of really good advice, thanks guys!

You mention the latest BIOS would be a good idea, which one is the latest?
It seems like it varies depending upon whom you talk to!


Without checking:

For the A7N8X Deluxe Rev1.0x, 1008
For the A7N8X Deluxe Rev2.0x, 1007
For the A7N8X-E Deluxe around 1011, I think.

I have the Rev2, and use the Uber 1007, but it's the same as the Asus 1007,
just with a few more options enabled.

Ben
 
G

Gareth Jones

Ben Pope <[email protected]> said:
Sustained transfer is not affected. (Name a drive that can approach a
sustained transfer of 100MB/s, let alone exceed 133MB/s). 70MB/s is the
absolute max I've seen from a drive.

While I agree in general with Ben's post, one thing to note is that
while its not an inherent feature of SATA alone, most SATA controllers
these days do provide a RAID0 ability as standard, hence the reason most
of my machines now have an effective sustained data transfer of around
110MB/s.
You can get this with PATA, but not as easily or cheaply.

--
__________________________________________________
Personal email for Gareth Jones can be sent to:
'usenet4gareth' followed by an at symbol
followed by 'uk2' followed by a dot
followed by 'net'
__________________________________________________
 
B

Ben Pope

Gareth said:
While I agree in general with Ben's post, one thing to note is that
while its not an inherent feature of SATA alone, most SATA controllers
these days do provide a RAID0 ability as standard, hence the reason most
of my machines now have an effective sustained data transfer of around
110MB/s.
Indeed.

You can get this with PATA, but not as easily or cheaply.

I disagree, the drives and controllers probably similar prices, with PATA
being a smidgen cheaper.

As long as the PATA controller had 2 channels and you had one drive on each,
you have the same thing. You would of course likely be limited to 133MB/s
unless it was chipset native.

The advantages of SATA over PATA are grossly misrepresented as performance
advantages, which, today, they are not.

My hard drives are both SATA, I like SATA, I encourage people to buy SATA,
but I must disagree that the advantages are in performance.

Ben
 
P

_P_e_ar_lALegend

Sustained transfer is not affected. (Name a drive that can approach a
I disagree, the drives and controllers probably similar prices, with PATA
being a smidgen cheaper.

Please... try Raid0 on SATA150 (SiliconImage, just to name a popular
choice) and we can talk. No need to buy 3Ware, no, SiliconImage is enough
:)
My hard drives are both SATA, I like SATA, I encourage people to buy
SATA, but I must disagree that the advantages are in performance.
Pleaaaseeeee... As I said, in everyday use, it's a difference like between
the day and the night :)

And, bien sur, u have to configure the drive in Raid0 mode. But also drive
against drive, I mean single ATA133 against single SATA150 drive make a
relevant difference in every day use.

And it's just stupid in this days buy ATA and not SATA, also if u think
about Raid configuration, and also if u just think in performance terms.
 
P

_P_e_ar_lALegend

I have a understanding of the hardware issues at work. I have SATA drives.
I have looked at benchmarks. I do know.

My Raptor is SATA and is faster than any other ATA drive I know, but thats
'cos it's 10k rpm, not because it's SATA.

Do you have anything other than uninformed opinion to base your statements
on?
I don't care a **** about benchmark: my feeling of everyday use is enough.
I do administer 100 systems, and u can bet there is a big deal of
difference between SATA and ATA. SATA give me a feeling not so different
from SCSI, finally.

So, if u want to say upgrade not worth the price if u do have reasonably
new ATA drives configured in Raid0 mode, I can say ok. But if u say ATA
and SATA are pretty much the same in term of performance in every day use,
well, I say: check your system configuration becouse u are wrong.

That's all.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top