Word applies direct format on File open

[Uriel]

Puzzle #1: With Word 2003, when I open a file using the "Plain text" file
conversion option, Word assigns the "Plain Text" style to each paragraph,
which is not surprising; but it also applies direct font formatting
(confirmed via Reveal Formatting) so that the font is Courier New even
though I've redefined the "Plain Text" style to use Times Roman.

Puzzle #2: In Word 2000, I used to routinely open .HTM files with the "Text
file" conversion option. This option is no longer presented as an option in
Word 2003 when I select an .HTM file to open. (It *is* presented as an
option when I select a .TXT file.)

 

[Graham Mayor]

1. Plain text cannot use proportional fonts like TNR, so you are not going
to succeed with this.
2. You should be able to use the old filter (which was removed for security
considerations). The text filter is linked from the downloads page of my web
site. Whether it will do what you want is another matter entirely. You may
also need the old htm filter. I don't have a link for that one, but if you
still have access to the Word 2000 equipped machine .......

--
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Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

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[Uriel]

Sorry, but I don't understand your points. Maybe I should be clearer that I
*want* to open the .HTM as plaintext -- i.e. I want to see <i>html
formatting codes</i>. (I want to see "<i>" rather than have Word show the
text formatted as italics.)

You say "Plain text cannot use proportional fonts like TNR." But Word
permits me to modify the "Plain Text" style to use TNR.

Also don't know what you mean by text filter. Is my installation missing a
component? As mentioned, "Text file" is offered as a conversion option when
I select a .TXT file in the File/Open dialogue.


1. Plain text cannot use proportional fonts like TNR, so you are not going
to succeed with this.
2. You should be able to use the old filter (which was removed for security
considerations). The text filter is linked from the downloads page of my web
site. Whether it will do what you want is another matter entirely. You may
also need the old htm filter. I don't have a link for that one, but if you
still have access to the Word 2000 equipped machine .......

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Graham Mayor]

Plain text is a document format containing only characters in the ASCII
character set. If you open an HTML document with the plain text filter
(select the document in the file open window and from the down arrow
alongside the Open button select 'open with Word'. You will be presented
with a bunch of file open options. Select 'plain text'. This will open the
document in the manner you have described.

Word will let you format that document with any font you like, but if you
save it as plain text all that formatting will be lost, because plain text
doesn't support that. If you change the plain text style to use Times Roman
font then select all the document and press CTRL+Space to apply it to the
document. However the above proviso remains, the plain text format does not
support proportional fonts.

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Uriel]

Graham, I'm afraid you're still missing my points.

Select 'plain text'. This will open the document in the manner you have
described.

I know that. I did that. But the problem that follows is described in
"Puzzle #1" in my earlier post (below).

Word will let you format that document with any font you like, but if you
save it as plain text all that formatting will be lost, because plain text
doesn't support that.

I know that. No problem. I have no intention of applying formatting to an
..HTM file that I open, edit, and save as plain text.

If you change the plain text style to use Times Roman font then select all
the document and press CTRL+Space to apply it to the document.

But why is this necessary? Why does Word apply direct font formatting
immediately after opening an .HTM file with conversion option "plain text"?

the above proviso remains, the plain text format does not support
proportional fonts.

You said this before. And I answered: Word permits defining the "plain text"
style to use TNR. So what do you mean by "does not support"?

select the document in the file open window and from the down arrow
alongside the Open button select 'open with Word'.

Why would I do that?? It's exactly the same as simply clicking the Open
button directly.

Plain text is a document format containing only characters in the ASCII
character set. If you open an HTML document with the plain text filter
(select the document in the file open window and from the down arrow
alongside the Open button select 'open with Word'. You will be presented
with a bunch of file open options. Select 'plain text'. This will open the
document in the manner you have described.

Word will let you format that document with any font you like, but if you
save it as plain text all that formatting will be lost, because plain text
doesn't support that. If you change the plain text style to use Times Roman
font then select all the document and press CTRL+Space to apply it to the
document. However the above proviso remains, the plain text format does not
support proportional fonts.

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

When you changed the font of the Plain Text style, did you save the change
to Normal.dot?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Uriel]

(Shudder) I was prepared to be embarrassed there. But no, I checked, and I
had defined the Plain Text style in Normal.dot to use TNR.

I've just checked and the same thing I described happens when opening .TXT
files as well as .HTM files. With Word 2003, you should be able to reproduce
the same behavior.

When you changed the font of the Plain Text style, did you save the change
to Normal.dot?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Graham Mayor]

Graham, I'm afraid you're still missing my points.

OK I'll concede that

I know that. I did that. But the problem that follows is described in
"Puzzle #1" in my earlier post (below).
OK


I know that. No problem. I have no intention of applying formatting
to an .HTM file that I open, edit, and save as plain text.

If you open an HTM file as text then change the formatting to TNR, you have
indeed changed the formatting to use a proportional font. This is no problem
at all if you then intend saving as a Word document, but plain text does not
support font information of any kind. It stores only the underlying text.

But why is this necessary? Why does Word apply direct font formatting
immediately after opening an .HTM file with conversion option "plain
text"?

You would have to ask Microsoft's programmers, but it is presumably because
plain text documents do not contain proportional font information. By
overriding the default font in the plain text style (which as you have
indicated you cannot do) Word substitutes a monospaced font - courier new.
You can apply the changes you have made to the style by using the CTRL+A
CTRL+Space if that is what you want. There does not seem to be any way round
this - and frankly for a plain text document I for one wouldn't want it
changed.

You said this before. And I answered: Word permits defining the
"plain text" style to use TNR. So what do you mean by "does not
support"?

Answered (I hope) above

Why would I do that?? It's exactly the same as simply clicking the
Open button directly.

That rather depends on what you default settings are for opening htm files
and what filters you have present. If opening directly works for you, then
that's fine.

As others have reported before you, Word is not the ideal tool for editing
html files, which I presume this is what lies behind your query. If you find
it such a big deal that you cannot edit your plain text files in Word using
a proportional font without forcing the changes in the style as described,
then the following macro attached to a toolbar button will do it for you at
a click.

Sub PlaintoTNR()
Selection.WholeStory
Selection.Font.Reset
Selection.HomeKey Unit:=wdStory
End Sub

http://www.gmayor.com/installing_macro.htm

 

[Uriel]

Graham, I'm afraid you're still missing my points.

OK I'll concede that

Graham, I hate to say this, but you're STILL missing the points. Are you
actually reading my posts? It's very kind of you to spend time posting
responses to queries, but the time would be better spent if you first
figured out what the queries actually say.

If you open an HTM file as text then change the formatting to TNR, you have
indeed changed the formatting

Graham: I DID NOT DO THAT.

By overriding the default font in the plain text style (which as you have
indicated you cannot do)

I *DID* do it. As I've reported previously. The plain text style in my
Normal.dot is defined to use TNR.

As others have reported before you, Word is not the ideal tool for editing
html files

Really. I don't know what their objections might have been. Word 2000 always
suited me perfectly fine for editing html files.

frankly for a plain text document I for one wouldn't want it changed.

What can I say? We have different preferences. This is an inquiry about
buggy, inconsistent behavior in Word 2003, and whether there's a way to
avoid it.

Graham, I'm afraid you're still missing my points.

OK I'll concede that

I know that. I did that. But the problem that follows is described in
"Puzzle #1" in my earlier post (below).
OK


I know that. No problem. I have no intention of applying formatting
to an .HTM file that I open, edit, and save as plain text.

If you open an HTM file as text then change the formatting to TNR, you have
indeed changed the formatting to use a proportional font. This is no problem
at all if you then intend saving as a Word document, but plain text does not
support font information of any kind. It stores only the underlying text.

But why is this necessary? Why does Word apply direct font formatting
immediately after opening an .HTM file with conversion option "plain
text"?

You would have to ask Microsoft's programmers, but it is presumably because
plain text documents do not contain proportional font information. By
overriding the default font in the plain text style (which as you have
indicated you cannot do) Word substitutes a monospaced font - courier new.
You can apply the changes you have made to the style by using the CTRL+A
CTRL+Space if that is what you want. There does not seem to be any way round
this - and frankly for a plain text document I for one wouldn't want it
changed.

You said this before. And I answered: Word permits defining the
"plain text" style to use TNR. So what do you mean by "does not
support"?

Answered (I hope) above

Why would I do that?? It's exactly the same as simply clicking the
Open button directly.

That rather depends on what you default settings are for opening htm files
and what filters you have present. If opening directly works for you, then
that's fine.

As others have reported before you, Word is not the ideal tool for editing
html files, which I presume this is what lies behind your query. If you find
it such a big deal that you cannot edit your plain text files in Word using
a proportional font without forcing the changes in the style as described,
then the following macro attached to a toolbar button will do it for you at
a click.

Sub PlaintoTNR()
Selection.WholeStory
Selection.Font.Reset
Selection.HomeKey Unit:=wdStory
End Sub

http://www.gmayor.com/installing_macro.htm

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I think the issue here is that the formatting for the Plain Text style is
supplied in this case not by Normal.dot but by whatever template is attached
to the file you open, and it's difficult to say what that might be in the
case of a .TXT or .HTM file.

I have thought of a workaround that might accomplish what you want: If you
are willing to edit in Normal view (which should be satisfactory for a
plain-text document), you can check the box for "Draft font" on the View tab
of Tools | Options and select TNR as the font to use.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Uriel]

Curiouser and curiouser.

This really has to be tried to be believed.

I did what you suggested. "Draft font" had been unchecked; I checked and
selected TNR 12. Now what happens, on opening an HTM or TXT file, is that
text indeed appears as TNR 12. But the formatting toolbar nevertheless shows
"Courier New." If I ctrl-space, the formatting toolbar changes and reports
TNR. But the highlighted text doesn't change (since it was already TNR).

Also, after opening the file and before I change any formats, Reveal
Formatting shows Direct Formatting with Courier New (in defiance of the
actual appearance of TNR).

However ....... these issues are academic, since I've got the TNR I wanted.
(Better legibility and more efficient use of screen space.) Thanks for
solving the problem, Suzanne!

I think the issue here is that the formatting for the Plain Text style is
supplied in this case not by Normal.dot but by whatever template is attached
to the file you open, and it's difficult to say what that might be in the
case of a .TXT or .HTM file.

I have thought of a workaround that might accomplish what you want: If you
are willing to edit in Normal view (which should be satisfactory for a
plain-text document), you can check the box for "Draft font" on the View tab
of Tools | Options and select TNR as the font to use.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I think what's happening here is that you have TNR defined as the default
font for Plain Text, but the plain text is coming in with Courier New as
direct formatting. I would think that this would change to TNR if you
selected text and did ResetChar (Ctrl+Spacebar) on the text irrespective of
the draft font. I would imagine that the font box is reflecting what font
the text would be using if you switched to Print Layout view (not using the
draft font). I haven't been following this thread carefully, but does the
font of the document not change to TNR if you Ctrl+A, Ctrl+Spacebar (without
using the draft font option)?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Uriel]

I think what's happening here is that you have TNR defined as the default

font for Plain Text, but the plain text is coming in with Courier New as
direct formatting. I would think that this would change to TNR if you
selected text and did ResetChar (Ctrl+Spacebar) on the text irrespective of
the draft font.

Yes, that's right:

- I have TNR defined as the default font for Plain Text

- the text is coming in directly formatted with Courier New

- (with "draft font" unchecked): it does change to TNR if I select text and
do Ctrl+Spacebar (i.e., the direct formatting is removed, which is what's
supposed to happen on Ctrl+Spacebar).

does the font of the document not change to TNR if you Ctrl+A,
Ctrl+Spacebar (without using the draft font option)?

It does change to TNR.

I would imagine that the font box is reflecting what font the text would be
using if you switched to Print Layout view (not using the draft font).

Right again. OK, I understand this now that I've looked up what checking
"draft font" means. It simply displays the designated draft font, in Normal
view, regardless of what the actual font is in the document.

Which actually is not so cool for me, since setting the option gives me TNR
12 (in Normal view, the view I normally work with) for ALL documents,
including actual .DOC documents that do have Word formatting, unlike TXT or
HTM files.

Good grief. Is there no way to open TXT files without Word applying unwanted
formats?

What happened to the "text file" option that Word 2000 included in the list
of conversions one could choose from on opening a non-DOC file? Can I get
that, with the old behavior, back? (It provides what I need -- namely, NO
conversion.)


I think what's happening here is that you have TNR defined as the default
font for Plain Text, but the plain text is coming in with Courier New as
direct formatting. I would think that this would change to TNR if you
selected text and did ResetChar (Ctrl+Spacebar) on the text irrespective of
the draft font. I would imagine that the font box is reflecting what font
the text would be using if you switched to Print Layout view (not using the
draft font). I haven't been following this thread carefully, but does the
font of the document not change to TNR if you Ctrl+A, Ctrl+Spacebar (without
using the draft font option)?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Okay, so what you're saying is that when you open a text document, it is too
much trouble for you to Ctrl+A, Ctrl+Spacebar to get the appearance you
want?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Uriel]

Precisely!

Dumb things like that are acutely stressful to me.

We're talking something I'd be doing thousands and thousands of times.
Manually removing font formatting that Word inexplicably attaches to plain
text.

It's just too dumb.

I already deal with enough folly without having it stuck in my craw every
time I use my computer. Actually, I can say it would definitely drive me to
abandon this 2003 trial and go back to 2000.

Okay, so what you're saying is that when you open a text document, it is too
much trouble for you to Ctrl+A, Ctrl+Spacebar to get the appearance you
want?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Graham Mayor]

As I have repeated over and over, but you are still not prepared to listen.
Plain text DOES NOT SUPPORT FONT FORMATTING!!!!!

You can force it to display whatever font you like eg TNR, but then the
document immediately loses its plain text status. Word adds (invisibly in
the paragraph breaks that split and add the document) the additional
formatting you apply - here TNR. It is not adding manual formatting so much
as removing the style formatting that is incompatible with the file type.

I appreciate that you find this frustrating, but it is not my (or Suzanne's)
fault that you want to force Word to do something that contradicts the file
format. You are either going to have to live with it, use one of the
suggested workarounds, or use something else.


--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>

 

[Uriel]

As I have repeated over and over, but you are still not prepared to listen.

Plain text DOES NOT SUPPORT FONT FORMATTING!!!!!

Whoahhhhh! Graham. I heard you.

And if you'll just look down inside your very own post, you'll see where I
quoted your earlier repetition of that statement and gave my response. You
seem to have missed my response. You never answered the further question it
asks.

Here, let me reproduce it. First my quote from you; then my further
question:

"Does not support," Graham, is really entirely meaningless. Remember, I'm
just trying to restore behavior I had for years in Word 2000.

Somewhere deep in your mind you are positive there's a contradiction between
plain text and proportional fonts. There isn't.


As I have repeated over and over, but you are still not prepared to listen.
Plain text DOES NOT SUPPORT FONT FORMATTING!!!!!

You can force it to display whatever font you like eg TNR, but then the
document immediately loses its plain text status. Word adds (invisibly in
the paragraph breaks that split and add the document) the additional
formatting you apply - here TNR. It is not adding manual formatting so much
as removing the style formatting that is incompatible with the file type.

I appreciate that you find this frustrating, but it is not my (or Suzanne's)
fault that you want to force Word to do something that contradicts the file
format. You are either going to have to live with it, use one of the
suggested workarounds, or use something else.


--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>