Windows XP recovery legal question

[Guest]

I have a small computer consulting/repair business in Houston and need the
correct legal answer to this question. If you have a PC with the Windows XP
“Proof of License†– “Certificate of Authenticity†attached to it and the
hard drive is replaced and you do not have the original XP or recovery CD and
the PC manufacturer will not send you the CDs do you have to re-purchase the
Windows XP software?

I have a client that has a Dell PC and they will not send him the CDs so I
told him that he would have to purchase a copy of Windows XP. Needless to
say he was very upset with me. He found someone that told him that they
could reload Windows XP and then call Microsoft to get a key that would work
on his computer. Is this true?

 

[Larry Samuels]

Something is fishy here. Dell will send the cds in every case I have ever
seen. They may try to charge a nominal fee, but they will send the disks.

If you have to install from a generic OEM cd because of missing disks,
simply call for activation. It takes less than 5 minutes under ideal
conditions (but conditions are seldom ideal)

--
Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge for
support calls that are associated with security updates
Larry Samuels Associate Expert
MS-MVP (2001-2005)
Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
Expert Zone-

 

[Harry Ohrn]

The software isn't the issue when it comes to licensing. It is the COA that
is important. You have the Product Key and the COA on the side of the case.
Use an OEM XP CD - same version Home or Pro - and it should install. You
can't use a Retail version of XP with the key you have as OEM keys and
Retails Keys are not interchangeable.

Typically Dell is very good at helping though.

 

[Kerry Brown]

If you want a legal opinion you should talk to a lawyer. They will probably
not give you one as it is a very grey area. Personally when repairing
computers as long as I am sure they have a legitimate license I use one of
my disks (as long as it is the same exact version) and the key from their
COA. You will most likely have to phone to activate.

 

[Gene K]

Dell, so far as I know, now does what HP, Sony, and other computer
manufacturers do with a computer they sell to you. That is that they provide
no system disks, rather they provide a system recovery file which will
restore your computer back to the state it was in when new. When you
initially set up the system you are told to burn that recovery partition to
discs so that you will have copies to use in case of catastrophic failure
[the hard disk fails, for one]. Apparently, your customer did not comply
(his fault). As others have told you, the pre-installed system is an OEM so
Dell owes him/you support NOT Microsoft. The number appearing on that case
sticker is likely not the number/alpha series you would find with Magical
JellyBean Finder or other OS key retrieval tools. Rather you would find one
with -OEM- as part of it. If you/he called Microsoft quoting that case OS
number, I would think that the caller would be told quickly told to call the
computer manufacturer. As to your customers other helper, he very likely
would be referred right back to Dell as soon as they seek identifying
information as to his original OS and computer. There may be a way to get
successfully through the Microsoft checkpoints; however, I would not wager
money on the likelihood of success.
Will Dell provide you with recovery system discs if you contact them? I have
no experience, in that respect, with them; however, I do have experience
with both HP and Sony and they will provide them at a cost. HP charged me
somewhere around $13 plus shipping [about $20 total]. I think that Dell
would do the same for more or less money.
I am not a lawyer so I cannot really discuss legal ramifications; however
OEM versions of Windows are basicly restricted to the first computer they
are installed upon [I think basicly tied to the original motherboard]. There
are exceptions made for unique circumstances (the motherboard fails within
the first few weeks, as an example) but the manufacturer has to resolve the
problem for the buyer. I would recommend that you turn the customer over to
his second helper and let it go. Ain't worth the trouble.
Gene K

 

[Stan Brown]

Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:11:03 -0700 from stan

I have a client that has a Dell PC and they will not send him the CDs so I
told him that he would have to purchase a copy of Windows XP. Needless to
say he was very upset with me.

He's blaming the wrong party. He should be upset with Dell, for
saving a few cents by not providing a Windows install disk with the
computer.

 

[DanS]

As others have
told you, the pre-installed system is an OEM so Dell owes him/you
support NOT Microsoft. The number appearing on that case sticker is
likely not the number/alpha series you would find with Magical
JellyBean Finder or other OS key retrieval tools. Rather you would
find one with -OEM- as part of it. If you/he called Microsoft quoting
that case OS number, I would think that the caller would be told
quickly told to call the computer manufacturer. As to your customers
other helper, he very likely would be referred right back to Dell as
soon as they seek identifying information as to his original OS and
computer. There may be a way to get successfully through the Microsoft
checkpoints; however, I would not wager money on the likelihood of
success.

<SNIP>

I have personally re-installed the generic OEM versions of XP on 2
computers that came with XP preinstalled, one HP and one Compaq. Both
required a call to M$ to activate after using the COA number's on the
case sticker at install time. On neither occasion did the phone operator
hesitate to supply a new activation code.

I am also not saying that there is no possibility that M$ would refuse,
just that they had accomodated me both times I have done this.

There is a MAJOR advantage to doing it this way. That is being able to
install Windows XP and that is all. By avoiding doing a factroy restore,
you will not have to un-install all the bulls**t software OEMs place on
the PC's when you get it that you un-installed the first time around. I'm
talking about the 20 of so Dell/HP/whatever branded utilities you'll see
in Add/Remove programs, trial versions of whatever cr*p, RealPlayer, the
list goes on.....and on.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:11:03 -0700 from stan


He's blaming the wrong party. He should be upset with Dell, for
saving a few cents by not providing a Windows install disk with the
computer.

Not to mention that he should have asked about recovery methods and
installation media included *before* making the purchasing decision.
So he also has himself to blame.

I certainly don't approve of an OEM's not including an installation CD,
but until consumer "vote with their wallets" and purchase from *only*
those manufacturers who do provide the CDs, this deplorable practice
will not only continue, it will spread.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

 

[Stan Brown]

Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:12:06 -0600 from Bruce Chambers

Not to mention that he should have asked about recovery methods and
installation media included *before* making the purchasing decision.
So he also has himself to blame.

In theory you're right, but nonetheless I disagree. Most people buy a
computer only every few years. Last time the OP bought a computer may
well have been before this nonsense started. I'm more sophisticated
about these matters than average, but I was caught flat-footed when I
bought my Acer 15 months ago to replace my Win 98 machine. I can
therefore understand how a more naive user might not know to ask
about this in advance.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

In theory you're right, but nonetheless I disagree. Most people buy a
computer only every few years.

Then they should know that there will have been many, many changes, and
that they should take nothing for granted.

Last time the OP bought a computer may
well have been before this nonsense started.

Possibly, but I don't think that it's really relevant, as nearly
everything would have changed since then, as well. A thinking consumer
would be aware of, and on the look-out for, changes.

I'm more sophisticated
about these matters than average, but I was caught flat-footed when I
bought my Acer 15 months ago to replace my Win 98 machine.

Sorry to disagree, but I'd have to conclude that your getting "caught
flat-footed" 15 months ago by a practice that's been common for several
years means you're no more "sophisticated about these matters" than the
average newbie who wonders why he didn't get a CD.

I can
therefore understand how a more naive user might not know to ask
about this in advance.

I do see your point, I have a hard time understanding how *any* adult
consumer, exposed to today's nearly continuous mass media barrage of
reports of corporate, religious, individual, and government malfeasance
can possibly remain so naive. The seller is in business to make a
profit, which means that he will provide in the way of material and
services as little as necessary, for as much money as he can get in
return. It's been this way since the dawn of time.

Additionally, I don't think one needs to be especially conversant with
computers to ask pertinent questions. It takes only a few minutes
product research to prepare oneself. To my way of thinking, *any*
consumer considering *any* purchase is ultimately responsible for
determining if said purchase meets his needs, and will continue to do so
for the foreseeable future (or however long the consumer anticipates
using said product). A crucial factor in making such a determination is
knowing exactly what one is going to get for one's money: what's
included in the sale (cabling, attachments, documentation, media, etc),
and -- more importantly -- what isn't included (batteries, for example).

And I simply cannot comprehend how one can call oneself an adult, make
a relatively major and expensive purchase without doing one scintilla of
market research, and then blame another for the natural consequences of
one's own lack of preparation.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

 

[Stan Brown]

Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:28:29 -0600 from Bruce Chambers

Sorry to disagree, but I'd have to conclude that your getting "caught
flat-footed" 15 months ago by a practice that's been common for several
years means you're no more "sophisticated about these matters" than the
average newbie who wonders why he didn't get a CD.

Harumph. I meant that I am more sophisticated than average about
computers in general and Windows in particular, not (at the time)
about licensing details.

I did ask about whether I would get a Windows disk, and was told I
would not, but at the time I didn't know that one was necessary to do
a repair install. I suppose I could have researched it, but at some
point one spends 100% of time in research and never gets on with an
actual decision.

I do see your point, I have a hard time understanding how *any* adult
consumer, exposed to today's nearly continuous mass media barrage of
reports of corporate, religious, individual, and government malfeasance
can possibly remain so naive.

Information overload. People often don't know how to separate the
wheat from the chaff.

Additionally, I don't think one needs to be especially conversant with
computers to ask pertinent questions. It takes only a few minutes
product research to prepare oneself. To my way of thinking, *any*
consumer considering *any* purchase is ultimately responsible for
determining if said purchase meets his needs, and will continue to do so
for the foreseeable future (or however long the consumer anticipates
using said product).

The law disagrees with you on that point, at least in part. It
recognizes that a consumer may have to rely on a salesperson for help
in selecting a purchase, and makes a salesperson's promises a binding
part of the contract, if the consumer relies upon them in making a
selection. The law thus recognizes that it's not practical for every
consumer to do full research on every product. ("Implied warranty of
fitness for a particular purpose" is the buzzword.)

I no longer subscribe to /Consumer Reports/, but I wonder if even
that source has ever addressed the issue of the "missing" install CD.

And I simply cannot comprehend how one can call oneself an adult, make
a relatively major and expensive purchase without doing one scintilla of
market research, and then blame another for the natural consequences of
one's own lack of preparation.

As I said before, in general I agree with you. In articular, I think
that people who don't read contracts before signing have no cause to
complain about their terms after signing.

The problem is, in a technical field, how does an ordinary user know
to ask the questions s/he doesn't know enough to ask? You and I know
about Usenet and Web searches and what not, but many people do not.

Just today I read an article on misc.legal.moderated where a lawyer
said it would not be practical to have a license for software that
was tied to a specific computer because there would be no way for the
software to know what computer it was on! (Yes, I posted a follow-
up.)

 

[jll]

My 2 cents; if I buy a $250 computer from Comp USA (with printer) or a $299
Dell, both of which have XP Home installed, should I really expect to get an
XP CD (about $160)?
jll

 

[Larry Samuels]

Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard drive
fails.

--
Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge for
support calls that are associated with security updates
Larry Samuels Associate Expert
MS-MVP (2001-2005)
Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
Expert Zone-

My 2 cents; if I buy a $250 computer from Comp USA (with printer) or a
$299 Dell, both of which have XP Home installed, should I really expect to
get an XP CD (about $160)?
jll

 

[Phil Weldon]

'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard drive
| fails.
_____

It seems to that whether or not the manufacturer supplies an OS operating
system disk is up to Microsoft, since they set the terms controlling how a
Microsoft operating system can be sold with a computer.

| Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard drive
| fails.

 

[Larry Samuels]

Hi Phil,

Nope--ALL OEMs have the option of including original media if they choose to
do so. They simply choose not to do so for reasons of cost of media and
added support costs.

--
Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge for
support calls that are associated with security updates
Larry Samuels Associate Expert
MS-MVP (2001-2005)
Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
Expert Zone-

 

[Phil Weldon]

'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| Nope--ALL OEMs have the option of including original media if they choose
to
| do so. They simply choose not to do so for reasons of cost of media and
| added support costs.
_____

Exactly my point.
Microsoft controls the conditions.
If Microsoft only allow OEM sales that include recovery disks, then, there
you are.

There is platform provider that avoids that situation.

Phil Weldon



| Hi Phil,
|
| Nope--ALL OEMs have the option of including original media if they choose
to
| do so. They simply choose not to do so for reasons of cost of media and
| added support costs.
|
| --
| Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
| Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge
for
| support calls that are associated with security updates
| Larry Samuels Associate Expert
| MS-MVP (2001-2005)
| Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
| http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
| Expert Zone-
| | > 'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| > | Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard drive
| > | fails.
| > _____
| >
| > It seems to that whether or not the manufacturer supplies an OS
operating
| > system disk is up to Microsoft, since they set the terms controlling
how
| > a
| > Microsoft operating system can be sold with a computer.
| >
| > | > | Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard drive
| > | fails.
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Larry Samuels]

Please re-read what I wrote.

You can't blame MS for the choices an individual OEM makes with regards to
recovery methods. All OEMs are required to include a method of recovery and
*CAN* include recovery media if they so choose.

MS *could* rectify the situation by requiring disks, but are in no way
responsible for choices made by the OEM as long as such choices are allowed
by current licensing agreements.

Vote with your wallet--only purchase from vendors that include media,
preferably original disks.


--
Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge for
support calls that are associated with security updates
Larry Samuels Associate Expert
MS-MVP (2001-2005)
Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
Expert Zone-

 

[Phil Weldon]

'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| Please re-read what I wrote.
|
| You can't blame MS for the choices an individual OEM makes with regards to
| recovery methods. All OEMs are required to include a method of recovery
and
| *CAN* include recovery media if they so choose.
|
| MS *could* rectify the situation by requiring disks, but are in no way
| responsible for choices made by the OEM as long as such choices are
allowed
| by current licensing agreements.
|
| Vote with your wallet--only purchase from vendors that include media,
| preferably original disks.
_____

Please re-read what I wrote. "Microsoft controls the conditions." =
Microsoft sets the licensing agreements.

Phil Weldon

| Please re-read what I wrote.
|
| You can't blame MS for the choices an individual OEM makes with regards to
| recovery methods. All OEMs are required to include a method of recovery
and
| *CAN* include recovery media if they so choose.
|
| MS *could* rectify the situation by requiring disks, but are in no way
| responsible for choices made by the OEM as long as such choices are
allowed
| by current licensing agreements.
|
| Vote with your wallet--only purchase from vendors that include media,
| preferably original disks.
|
|
| --
| Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
| Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge
for
| support calls that are associated with security updates
| Larry Samuels Associate Expert
| MS-MVP (2001-2005)
| Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
| http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
| Expert Zone-
|
| | > 'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| > | Nope--ALL OEMs have the option of including original media if they
| > choose
| > to
| > | do so. They simply choose not to do so for reasons of cost of media
and
| > | added support costs.
| > _____
| >
| > Exactly my point.
| > Microsoft controls the conditions.
| > If Microsoft only allow OEM sales that include recovery disks, then,
there
| > you are.
| >
| > There is platform provider that avoids that situation.
| >
| > Phil Weldon
| >
| >
| >
| > | > | Hi Phil,
| > |
| > | Nope--ALL OEMs have the option of including original media if they
| > choose
| > to
| > | do so. They simply choose not to do so for reasons of cost of media
and
| > | added support costs.
| > |
| > | --
| > | Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
| > | Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no
charge
| > for
| > | support calls that are associated with security updates
| > | Larry Samuels Associate Expert
| > | MS-MVP (2001-2005)
| > | Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
| > | http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
| > | Expert Zone-
| > | | > | > 'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| > | > | Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard
| > drive
| > | > | fails.
| > | > _____
| > | >
| > | > It seems to that whether or not the manufacturer supplies an OS
| > operating
| > | > system disk is up to Microsoft, since they set the terms
controlling
| > how
| > | > a
| > | > Microsoft operating system can be sold with a computer.
| > | >
| > | > | > | > | Yes you should. Hard drive based recovery is useless if the hard
| > drive
| > | > | fails.
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Larry Samuels]

LOL it looks like we are talking at cross-purposes while saying the same
thing <G>

--
Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge for
support calls that are associated with security updates
Larry Samuels Associate Expert
MS-MVP (2001-2005)
Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
Expert Zone-

 

[Phil Weldon]

'Larry Samuels' wrote:
| LOL it looks like we are talking at cross-purposes while saying the same
| thing <G>
_____

I agree.

Many computer buyers are better off WITHOUT operating system recovery disks,
and ought to have a 'cooling off' period before ordered recovery disks can
be picked up - sorta like gun purchases B^)

Phil Weldon

| LOL it looks like we are talking at cross-purposes while saying the same
| thing <G>
|
| --
| Customers in the U.S. and Canada can receive technical support from
| Microsoft Product Support Services at 1-866-PCSAFETY. There is no charge
for
| support calls that are associated with security updates
| Larry Samuels Associate Expert
| MS-MVP (2001-2005)
| Unofficial FAQ for Windows Server 2003 at
| http://pelos.us/SERVER.htm
| Expert Zone-
| | >
| > Please re-read what I wrote. "Microsoft controls the conditions." =
| > Microsoft sets the licensing agreements.
| >
| > Phil Weldon
|