J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
Yes, I met or exceeded all requirements.
But that is not relevant to this discussion.
But that is not relevant to this discussion.
C
Colin Barnhorst
Dennis and xfile,
Thanks for the kind words and have a happy Thanksgiving (and many happy
turkey sandwiches to come).
Colin
Thanks for the kind words and have a happy Thanksgiving (and many happy
turkey sandwiches to come).
Colin
M
Mr. Vista
Oh yes it is my Friend.
You should disclose this fact before deriding those that support the case of
the CPP bug submitters.
You should disclose this fact before deriding those that support the case of
the CPP bug submitters.
M
Mr. Vista
Colin,
I have never said you are hypocritical.
I have noticed that whenever a post that supports the CPP bug submitters
appears it is usually shot down by Technical Beta Testers whom themselves
received a 'reward' for their contribution (in most cases justly so). To me
it's a double standard, though not in your case.
I know nothing was promised to CPP people, but then neither was anything
promised to TechBeta testers.
I can see from your "TechBeta final survey" input that you have a balanced
point of view and I applaud this.
And to you Colin, happy Vista and happy Thanksgiving.
I have never said you are hypocritical.
I have noticed that whenever a post that supports the CPP bug submitters
appears it is usually shot down by Technical Beta Testers whom themselves
received a 'reward' for their contribution (in most cases justly so). To me
it's a double standard, though not in your case.
I know nothing was promised to CPP people, but then neither was anything
promised to TechBeta testers.
I can see from your "TechBeta final survey" input that you have a balanced
point of view and I applaud this.
And to you Colin, happy Vista and happy Thanksgiving.
C
Colin Barnhorst
Why? This is a newsgroup, not the discovery phase of a court case.
C
Colin Barnhorst
And a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
Mr. Vista said:
R
Rock
Mr. Vista said:
As I wrote originally whether it was promised or not, given or not, is
irrelevant. It is a _very_ sad era of entitlement and you exemplify this.
You cannot see the difference between suggesting and expecting, between
appreciating a gift and expecting something to be given.
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
No, it is not relevant.
I did not set any conditions, Microsoft did.
Your very feeble attempt to change direction to an irrelevant point suggests
you are desperate for anything, however small to support your point.
You failed miserably.
As for "deriding those..." that is what you attempt to do to those that
believe Microsoft has a right to administer their programs as they see fit,
and again you fail miserably.
I would say exactly the same thing if the bar was just out of my reach and I
missed out.
Do not even suggest "fair" as some have.
That is nearly impossible which is the main reason it is true to say "Life
is not fair."
I will ask you an easy question so you can answer here for all to see.
Where would you have set the standard?
Remember the standard must be such that no one feels slighted at all even
though they barely missed.
If anyone disagrees with your plan, you fail as much as you feel Microsoft
failed in this.
Lastly remember you system MUST be perfectly "fair".
--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
I did not set any conditions, Microsoft did.
Your very feeble attempt to change direction to an irrelevant point suggests
you are desperate for anything, however small to support your point.
You failed miserably.
As for "deriding those..." that is what you attempt to do to those that
believe Microsoft has a right to administer their programs as they see fit,
and again you fail miserably.
I would say exactly the same thing if the bar was just out of my reach and I
missed out.
Do not even suggest "fair" as some have.
That is nearly impossible which is the main reason it is true to say "Life
is not fair."
I will ask you an easy question so you can answer here for all to see.
Where would you have set the standard?
Remember the standard must be such that no one feels slighted at all even
though they barely missed.
If anyone disagrees with your plan, you fail as much as you feel Microsoft
failed in this.
Lastly remember you system MUST be perfectly "fair".
--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
X
xfile
You have two kids, and you ask them doing their homework (something they
ought to do and neither of them expects any gift), but at the end, you give
one a candy bar and praise him for doing the homework and walk away from the
other one.
How do you feel if you were the one WITHOUT the candy bar? No, he did not
expect any candy bar in the first place and that means it's ok and justified
for you to give only one but not the other one?
Is that how will you teach your kids?
So kindly please explain what do you mean by "entitlement"?
Would you use the same word lecturing your kids and/or your subordinators,
if you have any?
And why "As I wrote originally whether it was promised or not, given or
not..." is
irrelevant?
Someone mentioned life is not fair. Yes, it is not. But mankind has been
working so hard to make it a little bit of more fairer for everyone so we
won't be like other "animals" solely based on "survival of the fittest". Or
is this something people like you also don't agree with?
If people like you could show the same level of compassion as Colin
Barnhorst, this post would have ended long ago.
PS: Before you reply, please remember that I don't want the free copy.
ought to do and neither of them expects any gift), but at the end, you give
one a candy bar and praise him for doing the homework and walk away from the
other one.
How do you feel if you were the one WITHOUT the candy bar? No, he did not
expect any candy bar in the first place and that means it's ok and justified
for you to give only one but not the other one?
Is that how will you teach your kids?
So kindly please explain what do you mean by "entitlement"?
Would you use the same word lecturing your kids and/or your subordinators,
if you have any?
And why "As I wrote originally whether it was promised or not, given or
not..." is
irrelevant?
Someone mentioned life is not fair. Yes, it is not. But mankind has been
working so hard to make it a little bit of more fairer for everyone so we
won't be like other "animals" solely based on "survival of the fittest". Or
is this something people like you also don't agree with?
If people like you could show the same level of compassion as Colin
Barnhorst, this post would have ended long ago.
PS: Before you reply, please remember that I don't want the free copy.
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
Your example has a major flaw.
The 2 kids in your example seem to be in the same situation.
That is not the case with the Tech Beta, CPP and other programs.
I was one of those that said "Life is not fair"
If that is the best argument, it fails as miserably as it does in my home
when I hear it from my kids.
They know that is insufficient for almost anything.
What level would you set the bar?
Whatever solution you decide must not leave anyone feeling they are missing
out or cheated. regardless how close they may be to the bar.
That means it must be fair to everyone so no one can complain like people
have complained in these newsgroups.
Otherwise your solution is at least as bad as as you feel the solution
Microsoft chose.
The 2 kids in your example seem to be in the same situation.
That is not the case with the Tech Beta, CPP and other programs.
I was one of those that said "Life is not fair"
If that is the best argument, it fails as miserably as it does in my home
when I hear it from my kids.
They know that is insufficient for almost anything.
What level would you set the bar?
Whatever solution you decide must not leave anyone feeling they are missing
out or cheated. regardless how close they may be to the bar.
That means it must be fair to everyone so no one can complain like people
have complained in these newsgroups.
Otherwise your solution is at least as bad as as you feel the solution
Microsoft chose.
X
xfile
That is nearly impossible which is the main reason it is true to say "Life
Indeed, it's not fair but for someone who've got the special interests, they
are the last ones qualified to say this.
If that can be accepted, there won't be a nation called - United States of
America.
Let me answer your question if I may,
If I were the one made the mistake, I'd do the following:
(1) Apologize for didn't include the other group by "private" or "open"
communication channels (which can be discussed),
(2) Issue another form of reward (which can be in all possible forms, not
necessary the same as the first group, and doesn't necessary to have any
monetary value) to thank their contributions,
Those two were just some quick thoughts, but at least I've shown my
sincerity for maybe a "careless" mistake and for compensating those who have
made contributions. And NOW I am "ENTITLED" to justify if "those" are
"greedy" and "unreasonable" based on their reactions.
Now back to you.
What would you do? Maybe nothing, right? Who cares, life it not fair. I
pray for you that you will never one day be unfairly treated.
Indeed, it's not fair but for someone who've got the special interests, they
are the last ones qualified to say this.
If that can be accepted, there won't be a nation called - United States of
America.
Let me answer your question if I may,
If I were the one made the mistake, I'd do the following:
(1) Apologize for didn't include the other group by "private" or "open"
communication channels (which can be discussed),
(2) Issue another form of reward (which can be in all possible forms, not
necessary the same as the first group, and doesn't necessary to have any
monetary value) to thank their contributions,
Those two were just some quick thoughts, but at least I've shown my
sincerity for maybe a "careless" mistake and for compensating those who have
made contributions. And NOW I am "ENTITLED" to justify if "those" are
"greedy" and "unreasonable" based on their reactions.
Now back to you.
What would you do? Maybe nothing, right? Who cares, life it not fair. I
pray for you that you will never one day be unfairly treated.
X
xfile
What makes you think you're a qualified educator?
And I replied to your other post.
And I replied to your other post.
M
Mr. Vista
Rock said:
Have you taken a course in circuitous argument?.
It's laughable that you declare that a "a sad attitude of entitlement"
exists when you are a recipient yourself.
As eloquently stated to Colin, "I have noticed that whenever a post that
supports the CPP bug submitters appears it is usually shot down by Technical
Beta Testers whom themselves received a 'reward' for their contribution (in
most cases justly so). To me it's a double standard, though not in your
[Colin's] case."
Just be happy with your free gift and don't be so bitter.
C
Colin Barnhorst
Well I am a qualified educator albeit retired now. In fact I am a qualified
school administrator with past certifications in Pennsylvania, Colorado, and
Texas. And I agree with Jupiter.
school administrator with past certifications in Pennsylvania, Colorado, and
Texas. And I agree with Jupiter.
C
Colin Barnhorst
What really concerns me in these threads on this topic is the envy on the
one hand and defensiveness on the other. It is almost as though membership
in TechBeta automatically marginalizes the opinions of a TB tester who has
received an invitation that a CPP-only participant did not get. None of
the rationalizations impress me. Worse, even if correct they don't make any
difference.
There isn't a single poster in this ng that does not have self-interest.
Self-interest is normal and acceptible. But it sure dosn't seem like many
are managing their self-interests very well. I wouldn't care about this but
this is threatening to polarize this ng just at the time we should all be
comparing notes and getting ready to help the flood of newbies that we are
about to see. I sure hope this theme disappears from the ng soon.
I think that the best way to address the disappointments and concerns about
this whole issue of the freebie is to give feedback directly to the Vista
team at (e-mail address removed) or indirectly through one of the many feedback
url's on microsoft.com. All we are doing here is taking in each other's
wash.
one hand and defensiveness on the other. It is almost as though membership
in TechBeta automatically marginalizes the opinions of a TB tester who has
received an invitation that a CPP-only participant did not get. None of
the rationalizations impress me. Worse, even if correct they don't make any
difference.
There isn't a single poster in this ng that does not have self-interest.
Self-interest is normal and acceptible. But it sure dosn't seem like many
are managing their self-interests very well. I wouldn't care about this but
this is threatening to polarize this ng just at the time we should all be
comparing notes and getting ready to help the flood of newbies that we are
about to see. I sure hope this theme disappears from the ng soon.
I think that the best way to address the disappointments and concerns about
this whole issue of the freebie is to give feedback directly to the Vista
team at (e-mail address removed) or indirectly through one of the many feedback
url's on microsoft.com. All we are doing here is taking in each other's
wash.
Mr. Vista said:
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
"someone who've got the special interests"
The "special interests" as you call it are in complete control and have no
bearing on my opinion.
Perhaps your own frustration because you feel you have been treated unfairly
because you did not get what you were not promised gives you your own bias.
But then, you have stated at least a few times you do not want anything for
yourself.
But then that refers to your own special interests.
How convenient you do not want what you can not have.
Why are we expected to believe that when you so quickly dismiss others with
a different view?
"they are the last ones qualified to say this"
How convenient, you fabricate a reason so those who disagree with you should
not voice an opinion.
I do not know where you come from, but where I come from, everyone can say
their opinion.
For the reasons above, perhaps you "are the last ones qualified to say" it
was wrong.
But then that would have you following the same standards you seem to be
setting for others.
Your reference to the U.S.A. seems out of place and meaningless in your
statement.
"If I were the one made the mistake"
I never asked anything about mistakes.
Please do not presume that I did.
I do not see any mistake other than those who feel different programs with
different purposes and different management should suddenly be treated the
same ignoring everything else.
"Apologize for..."
For what?
Not giving what was not promised?
Not giving what was not even implied?
Not treating two different programs the same even though they are different
from the management on down?
The purposes of CPP, Tech Beta and the others are different.
About the only thing they have in common is Vista.
There is no need to change what was given.
Nothing was promised so everyone got exactly what they were promised or they
got more.
Your solution fails miserably since it does not answer those who feel they
are entitled to the same as those in a different circumstance.
Your solution still leaves many unhappy.
If you feel so strongly, how come you seem to be very quiet on the real
solution?
I never see you suggesting to others with your view to contact Microsoft
directly.
Especially since most of us already know the proper place in Microsoft has
little chance of getting your message from these unmonitored newsgroups.
"Now back to you."
Now it seems like you are playing a game of tennis.
That tells the whole story.
This is a game to you.
You have little or no interest of dealing with your issues on a level they
have a chance of being resolved.
Otherwise you would be suggesting others contact Microsoft in the
appropriate way.
I have not seen you make such a reference
But I have suggested it with links many times while all you do is play
games.
Your purpose is becoming clearer.
The "special interests" as you call it are in complete control and have no
bearing on my opinion.
Perhaps your own frustration because you feel you have been treated unfairly
because you did not get what you were not promised gives you your own bias.
But then, you have stated at least a few times you do not want anything for
yourself.
But then that refers to your own special interests.
How convenient you do not want what you can not have.
Why are we expected to believe that when you so quickly dismiss others with
a different view?
"they are the last ones qualified to say this"
How convenient, you fabricate a reason so those who disagree with you should
not voice an opinion.
I do not know where you come from, but where I come from, everyone can say
their opinion.
For the reasons above, perhaps you "are the last ones qualified to say" it
was wrong.
But then that would have you following the same standards you seem to be
setting for others.
Your reference to the U.S.A. seems out of place and meaningless in your
statement.
"If I were the one made the mistake"
I never asked anything about mistakes.
Please do not presume that I did.
I do not see any mistake other than those who feel different programs with
different purposes and different management should suddenly be treated the
same ignoring everything else.
"Apologize for..."
For what?
Not giving what was not promised?
Not giving what was not even implied?
Not treating two different programs the same even though they are different
from the management on down?
The purposes of CPP, Tech Beta and the others are different.
About the only thing they have in common is Vista.
There is no need to change what was given.
Nothing was promised so everyone got exactly what they were promised or they
got more.
Your solution fails miserably since it does not answer those who feel they
are entitled to the same as those in a different circumstance.
Your solution still leaves many unhappy.
If you feel so strongly, how come you seem to be very quiet on the real
solution?
I never see you suggesting to others with your view to contact Microsoft
directly.
Especially since most of us already know the proper place in Microsoft has
little chance of getting your message from these unmonitored newsgroups.
"Now back to you."
Now it seems like you are playing a game of tennis.
That tells the whole story.
This is a game to you.
You have little or no interest of dealing with your issues on a level they
have a chance of being resolved.
Otherwise you would be suggesting others contact Microsoft in the
appropriate way.
I have not seen you make such a reference
But I have suggested it with links many times while all you do is play
games.
Your purpose is becoming clearer.
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
I never suggested I was.
You really need to stop injecting irrelevant and in this case wring
information.
--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
You really need to stop injecting irrelevant and in this case wring
information.
--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
That should be "wrong information"
X
xfile
Hi,
I will not continue any conversation with you.
You can't even read - I don't deserve and don't want a free copy.
I am not here to debate and I truly feel sorry for you.
I will not continue any conversation with you.
You can't even read - I don't deserve and don't want a free copy.
I am not here to debate and I truly feel sorry for you.
X
xfile
Hi,
Since you're a qualified educator, I have only one thing to add - There is
nothing in the world is without self-interests, and if there is, please let
me know one because I wish to learn.
Even true voluntary works for charities without any intensions for monetary
or business reward have self-interests. In this case, the self-interests is
to make one feels useful and glad to be helpful.
Psychology 101 - People doing things based on motivation and motivation is
self-interest. The only difference is if the self-interest is
selfish-minded without consideration of the public interests and/or if it
will interfere any professional ethics.
My self-interest for replying all these threads is to share the empathy with
those who should have one but not which I personally think is wrong, but
it's just a personal value.
What I don't understand is the self-interest of those who have got one but
feel so strongly about others shouldn't, and this is where I got into
intensive debate. Does the self-interest of CPP members interfere theirs or
yours, and this is something I failed to see it. Or because it is something
wrong for their master? In any case, this is what puzzles me the most.
As for you, what is your self-interest in all of it?
It seems to me that you've put self-interest in a negative way, if not, I
apologize. But if it is, you should ought to know that nothing is without
self-interest, and the only difference is what kind of self-interest,
Since you're a qualified educator, I have only one thing to add - There is
nothing in the world is without self-interests, and if there is, please let
me know one because I wish to learn.
Even true voluntary works for charities without any intensions for monetary
or business reward have self-interests. In this case, the self-interests is
to make one feels useful and glad to be helpful.
Psychology 101 - People doing things based on motivation and motivation is
self-interest. The only difference is if the self-interest is
selfish-minded without consideration of the public interests and/or if it
will interfere any professional ethics.
My self-interest for replying all these threads is to share the empathy with
those who should have one but not which I personally think is wrong, but
it's just a personal value.
What I don't understand is the self-interest of those who have got one but
feel so strongly about others shouldn't, and this is where I got into
intensive debate. Does the self-interest of CPP members interfere theirs or
yours, and this is something I failed to see it. Or because it is something
wrong for their master? In any case, this is what puzzles me the most.
As for you, what is your self-interest in all of it?
It seems to me that you've put self-interest in a negative way, if not, I
apologize. But if it is, you should ought to know that nothing is without
self-interest, and the only difference is what kind of self-interest,
Colin Barnhorst said: