Windows Update and Other Products...

[ross m. greenberg]

I recently had a major computer problems are due to installing an errant
copy of SP2 on my Vista Ultimate + SP1. I was fortunately able to recover
everything and I'm back in business except that Windows Update only does
Windows; it no longer does stuff like look for updates for Office. When I
try to include these kind of things I get told I have to log in as
Administrator or become a member of the Administrators Group. I am logged on
as an administrator with administrator privileges.

Now how do I tell Vista that?

Thanks!

Ross

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Ross.

Tell us more about that "errant copy of SP2". From where did you get it?
Is it possible that it included more or less than Microsoft put into it?

Have you tried sfc /scannow? That should repair/replace any
missing/corrupted operating system files. Have a copy of the Vista DVD
handy; the System File Checker might need to see that.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 7000

 

[ross m. greenberg]

One of the first things I did was to run an SFC -- everything was okay, all
verified properly. I got my copy of SP2 through Windows Update. My theory is
that somebody released it erroneously, and I downloaded it and installed it
before they removed it from Windows Update. Only two things are not working
now: I can only get Windows Update for Windows and it appears that I must
have a bootable DVD in the drive in order to boot into Vista. The system
hangs otherwise...

I had run the system file Checker against the Vista Ultimate DVD + SP1

Ross

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Ross.

Glad you have most things working again.

I can only get Windows Update for Windows

To me, the terms "Windows Update" and "Microsoft Update" are so nearly
synonymous that I forget that they are different. Microsoft is much bigger
than just Windows, and Microsoft Update includes Windows Update PLUS updates
for Microsoft Office, Windows Live and many other products, most of which
run in Windows but are not a part of Windows.

Click Start | Windows Update. (I'm running Win7 now and this has changed
slightly, but the essence is still the same.) Click Change settings, and on
the next screen, check the box to "Use Microsoft Update" under "How to get
updates for other Microsoft products". When you get back to the main WU
screen, the bottom line should say:
"You receive updates: For Windows and other products from Microsoft
Update"

When you try this, exactly what do you do, step by step? What result do you
see?

it appears that I must have a bootable DVD in the drive in order to boot
into Vista.

This means that the HDD set in the BIOS to be your boot device does not have
the proper Vista startup files in the Active (bootable) partition. Since
you have the Vista DVD, it should be an easy fix. Just put the DVD in the
drive and power up, but choose to Repair your hard drive, rather than to run
Vista. It should write the proper boot sector, bootmgr file and Boot folder
to that partition, making it the "system volume". Of course, if your BIOS
is set to boot from a different device, then this will do no good. The BIOS
must tell the computer to look where the startup files are, not on a
different drive.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 7000

 

[ross m. greenberg]

Click Start | Windows Update. (I'm running Win7 now and this has changed

slightly, but the essence is still the same.) Click Change settings, and
on the next screen, check the box to "Use Microsoft Update" under "How to
get updates for other Microsoft products". When you get back to the main
WU screen, the bottom line should say:
"You receive updates: For Windows and other products from Microsoft
Update"

When you try this, exactly what do you do, step by step? What result do
you see?

When I try to get "... other products..." I get the following message:

"
[Error number: 0x8DDD0002]
To install updates from this website, you must be logged on as an
administrator or a member of the Administrators group on your computer. If
you use Windows XP, you can see if you are an administrator by going to User
Accounts in Control Panel.

Note: If your computer is connected to a network, network policy settings
might also prevent you using this website. Contact your system administrator
for help with updates.

"
I am logged on as an Administrator -- the only one on the system -- and have
full Administrative Rights this makes no sense! I also do not see any group
settings when I look at administrator settings.

This means that the HDD set in the BIOS to be your boot device does not
have the proper Vista startup files in the Active (bootable) partition.
Since you have the Vista DVD, it should be an easy fix. Just put the DVD
in the drive and power up, but choose to Repair your hard drive, rather
than to run Vista. It should write the proper boot sector, bootmgr file
and Boot folder to that partition, making it the "system volume". Of
course, if your BIOS is set to boot from a different device, then this
will do no good. The BIOS must tell the computer to look where the
startup files are, not on a different drive.

When I put my Vista Ultimate + SP1 DVD into the drive and boot from it and
then select Repair it tells me that there is nothing wrong with my hard
disk! So next I tried playing with the BIOS. After I did an extensive check
from Dell's utility partition -- which showed everything including the hard
disk being in good shape -- I am unable to change the boot order. I have a
call into Dell to see what the problem might be. I know that the Easy Assist
boys and girls did some extensive downloading from the Dell site onto my
machine -- they very well may have downloaded some firmware changes as well.
Sigh.

I'm wondering if I have to manually install/copy the appropriate boot up
files to my hard drive. What files are they -- from my DVD -- and where
should I put the of my system hard disk?

Thank you for your help, by the way!

Ross

 

[ross m. greenberg]

So, I was finally able to get the "... other products" included in my
Windows Update. Basically, I had to restore it defaults for Internet
Explorer, making sure to first turn off the Windows Update Service, then
applying the defaults, and then rebooted. Then when I ran Windows Update it
showed me 10 or 12 updates that had to be applied to Microsoft Office. I
applied them in my system is now up to date.

Only thing left to fix up is just put the missing boot/startup files into
the appropriate directory. I'm getting there! Whew!!! Slower than I like and
with backups and restore points along the way!

Ross

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Ross.

Thanks for the progress report. Congratulations! And...hang in there. ;^}

Only thing left to fix up is just put the missing boot/startup files into
the appropriate directory.

Couple of points here. First, the "boot sector" is not a file. At the very
early stage when it comes into play, the computer doesn't yet know what a
file is. All it knows is the BIOS instruction to look at the first physical
sector on the first physical hard disk drive. Here it finds the MBR (Master
Boot Record) with only about 400 bytes of code plus 64 bytes of partition
table, consisting of four 16-byte entries. One of those entries (usually
the first one) will be coded Active, which means it is the bootable
partition. The primitive instructions at that point say to find the first
physical sector of that partition and load it into memory, then jump to the
beginning of that code and start executing those instructions. As the
computer system continues to "pull itself up by its own bootstraps", it
learns to deal with multiple HDDs, partitions, files, folders,
extensions...and all the other components of a working computer. This all
happens within a few seconds, and then it gets to the instruction to find
and load the operating system. At this point, the computer first hears
about Windows.

You may have noticed that WinXP's Boot.ini file does not use drive letters
at all. Its entries point to the \Windows folder in a numbered volume
(partition(#)) on a numbered HDD (rdisk(#)). The boot sector code on a
WinXP system ends with a final instruction to find a file named NTLDR - with
no extension - which must be in the Root of the System Partition because the
computer doesn't know how to look anywhere else at that point. NTLDR knows
how to look in that same Root directory and find NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini,
which point the way to the beginning breadcrumb (ntoskrnl.exe) to start
loading Windows. By the time that process is finished, we see the desktop
and Windows is running, waiting for our further instructions.

So it's not enough to have the right files in the right directory. The BIOS
settings must point to that first physical HDD, so that it can find the
correct MBR and boot sector to begin the process of loading the OS. Until
it gets to that point, it has no idea that Windows even exists. So you have
to be sure that the BIOS points to the right HDD, and that THAT drive has
the proper MBR and boot sector, and that NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini
are all in the Root of the bootable partition on THAT HDD. It's OK for
these three startup files to be Hidden and have the System attribute; in
fact, those are the default settings.

Vista's startup system is different - and more complex. Only the hidden
file bootmgr (no extension) needs to be in the Root of the System Partition,
along with a hidden (by default) FOLDER named \Boot, which contains the
several components of the BCD (Boot Configuration Data). The BCD replaces
WinXP's 3 startup files with instructions which the system uses to find
Vista and load it. But in a dual-boot system, those 3 WinXP files, plus a
file (bootsect.dos) holding a copy of the WinXP boot sector, are added to
Vista's System Partition. When we choose the "earlier OS" from the OS menu,
Vista's BCD loads that bootsect and turns over control so that it can
present Boot.ini's menu.

Remember that I'm an accountant, not a techie. Some of this may not be
exactly the way an expert would explain it, but I think it's close enough
for most of us.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 7000

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Hi, Ross.

Thanks for the progress report. Congratulations! And...hang in there. ;^}


Couple of points here. First, the "boot sector" is not a file. At the very
early stage when it comes into play, the computer doesn't yet know what a
file is. All it knows is the BIOS instruction to look at the first physical
sector on the first physical hard disk drive. Here it finds the MBR (Master
Boot Record) with only about 400 bytes of code plus 64 bytes of partition
table, consisting of four 16-byte entries. One of those entries (usually
the first one) will be coded Active, which means it is the bootable
partition. The primitive instructions at that point say to find the first
physical sector of that partition and load it into memory, then jump to the
beginning of that code and start executing those instructions. As the
computer system continues to "pull itself up by its own bootstraps", it
learns to deal with multiple HDDs, partitions, files, folders,
extensions...and all the other components of a working computer. This all
happens within a few seconds, and then it gets to the instruction to find
and load the operating system. At this point, the computer first hears
about Windows.

You may have noticed that WinXP's Boot.ini file does not use drive letters
at all. Its entries point to the \Windows folder in a numbered volume
(partition(#)) on a numbered HDD (rdisk(#)). The boot sector code on a
WinXP system ends with a final instruction to find a file named NTLDR - with
no extension - which must be in the Root of the System Partition because the
computer doesn't know how to look anywhere else at that point. NTLDR knows
how to look in that same Root directory and find NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini,
which point the way to the beginning breadcrumb (ntoskrnl.exe) to start
loading Windows. By the time that process is finished, we see the desktop
and Windows is running, waiting for our further instructions.

So it's not enough to have the right files in the right directory. The BIOS
settings must point to that first physical HDD, so that it can find the
correct MBR and boot sector to begin the process of loading the OS. Until
it gets to that point, it has no idea that Windows even exists. So you have
to be sure that the BIOS points to the right HDD, and that THAT drive has
the proper MBR and boot sector, and that NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini
are all in the Root of the bootable partition on THAT HDD. It's OK for
these three startup files to be Hidden and have the System attribute; in
fact, those are the default settings.

Vista's startup system is different - and more complex. Only the hidden
file bootmgr (no extension) needs to be in the Root of the System Partition,
along with a hidden (by default) FOLDER named \Boot, which contains the
several components of the BCD (Boot Configuration Data). The BCD replaces
WinXP's 3 startup files with instructions which the system uses to find
Vista and load it. But in a dual-boot system, those 3 WinXP files, plus a
file (bootsect.dos) holding a copy of the WinXP boot sector, are added to
Vista's System Partition. When we choose the "earlier OS" from the OS menu,
Vista's BCD loads that bootsect and turns over control so that it can
present Boot.ini's menu.

Remember that I'm an accountant, not a techie. Some of this may not be
exactly the way an expert would explain it, but I think it's close enough
for most of us.

RC

Well, I though it was masterful...

It has the effect, however, of making me long for the good old days:

1. Using the front panel switches, enter 16 or 20 instructions (in binary).
This provides a loader that can read the boot paper tape.

2. Put the boot tape in the reader and press start. The boot loader is read
from the paper tape.

3. Put the application paper tape in the reader and press start. The
application is loaded from the application paper tape.

4. Press Start. The application begins running.

You can imagine how the invention of the boot ROM & magnetic disks made me
happy.

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Gene.

Well, I was lucky enough to skip paper tape, although several microcomputers
were using those in 1977 when I got my first TRS-80 - with LEVEL I BASIC in
ROM. I started with the music cassette tapes; mini-floppy disks came along
the next year. So I never had to manually flip switches. ;<)

By the way, I downloaded and installed the RC build of Win7 this morning.
;<)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 RC 7100

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Hi, Gene.

Well, I was lucky enough to skip paper tape, although several microcomputers
were using those in 1977 when I got my first TRS-80 - with LEVEL I BASIC in
ROM. I started with the music cassette tapes; mini-floppy disks came along
the next year. So I never had to manually flip switches. ;<)

Ah, the advantages of Youth!

By the way, I downloaded and installed the RC build of Win7 this morning.
;<)

RC

Enjoy the experiments...

I don't have a computer for plying with, so I won't be trying V7 for a
while. I want to keep my equipment useful (although I'm not sure I actually
do anything useful with it).

BTW, I'm talking computer equipment here

 

[ross m. greenberg]

What do you think about a decent Virtual Machine?

Ross

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

What do you think about a decent Virtual Machine?

Ross

That surely seems OT in this thread...But don't confuse it with the OT
subthread you stuck it in

As I said recently in another thread "somewhere", it could be a good idea,
depending on your (unspecified) needs.

There is the free one from MS, "MS Virtual PC". I couldn't use it here
because although it worked fine when I tried it, it didn't support USB
(that was Jan 2009, maybe it's been fixed by now), and I needed USB for an
app I have that doesn't work in Vista x64. Since I have a paid version of
VMware that runs on a Mac, as well as a previously unused license for Win
XP Home, I made a virtual XP on the Mac and ported it to the Vista machine,
where I am now running that VM under the free VMware Player. This goes
under the rubric "Oh what a tangled web we weave ...".

Anyway, now I can run the problem app with no difficulty.

OTOH, if your application doesn't need the missing features of MS Virtual
PC, well, it's free.

BTW, if you don't want to buy VMware for your PC, Sun has a VM which is
free.

Other than MS Virtual PC, VMware, and Sun's offering, which all seem to
work OK, I don't know what's available.

Oh yes: the MS VM says it isn't supported in Vista Home Premium X64, but it
does work OK.