Windows Slowing down from HOT CPU Help

D

DevilsPGD

In message <[email protected]> Wes
Newell said:
And neither will some name brand models that cost 5 times more, so what's
your point? Hmmm.... I need 400W, so I buy a 400Antec that will put out
400W for say $50, or I buy a 600W for $18 that will only put out 550W. Now
which is the best deal? But wait, you say the Antec has larger caps. Wow,
so instead of the system crashing in 5ms during a brownout, the Antac will
go for 10ms.:) Spend the money you save on a UPS. That's muxh more
important than a name brand PSU.

Sure, except that the "brownout" might only last 5ms-10ms, and a cheapo
one might burn out completely after a couple of those.

Also, the 600W $18 ones typically don't do anywhere near 400W sustained,
although it really depends on the power supply you get, and whether or
not you luck out and get one from a good batch.

I've blown half a dozen of the cheapo ones before learning my lesson,
virtually always they died when there was unstable power coming in from
the mains. I've yet to lose a "name brand" (my desktop is Antec, my
servers are something else, I forget what off-hand, but some of them
have been going 5-6 years)
 
D

David Maynard

Wes said:
And neither will some name brand models that cost 5 times more,

Just because you made it up doesn't make it so.
so what's
your point?

The point was clear as a bell. The supposed 'watts' on the el-cheapos isn't
what they'll do.
Hmmm.... I need 400W, so I buy a 400Antec that will put out
400W for say $50,

In other words, it does what it says.
or I buy a 600W for $18 that will only put out 550W.

Dream on. Not even close.
Now
which is the best deal?

The one that does what it says because then you know what it does.
But wait, you say the Antec has larger caps.

I said nothing at all about Antec, nor caps. Busy inventing things again I see.
Wow,
so instead of the system crashing in 5ms during a brownout, the Antac will
go for 10ms.:) Spend the money you save on a UPS.

Aint no savings at all if you have to buy a UPS just to keep your el-cheap
PSU running.
That's muxh more
important than a name brand PSU.
Hogwash


My cheap 600W that some name brand zealots predicted would be dead within
a year is now into the 18th month of 24/7 operation Both my cheap PSU's
for my K7 systems are still going after 5 years, and the really cheap 400W
in my current backup K7 system is still going after about 3 years. if you
want bragging rights, buy a name brand.

Lucky you. Others aren't so lucky. Buy crap and gamble.

Not to mention I have a natural aversion to liars just on general
principle, even if nothing else, and that includes folks who advertise B.S.
Watts to sucker fools into buying them.
 
N

NoNoBadDog!

Wes Newell said:
And neither will some name brand models that cost 5 times more, so what's
your point? Hmmm.... I need 400W, so I buy a 400Antec that will put out
400W for say $50, or I buy a 600W for $18 that will only put out 550W. Now
which is the best deal? But wait, you say the Antec has larger caps. Wow,
so instead of the system crashing in 5ms during a brownout, the Antac will
go for 10ms.:) Spend the money you save on a UPS. That's muxh more
important than a name brand PSU.

My cheap 600W that some name brand zealots predicted would be dead within
a year is now into the 18th month of 24/7 operation Both my cheap PSU's
for my K7 systems are still going after 5 years, and the really cheap 400W
in my current backup K7 system is still going after about 3 years. if you
want bragging rights, buy a name brand.

--
KT133 MB, CPU @2400MHz (24x100): SIS755 MB CPU @2330MHz (10x233)
Need good help? Provide all system info with question.
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Your cheap $18 PSU has low amperage on the 12 volt rail compared to the
Antec (and amperage is more critical than rock steady voltage). Your cheap
$18 PSU has no feedback protection, and does not stabilize for several
*SECONDS* after powering up. You are a cretin for espousing the use of a
cheap PSU on any system. The fact that you have no issues is indicative
that the rest of the hardware in your system is as equally crappy as the $18
PSU you use. I bet you drive a rusted out POS car, too.

Bobby
 
J

JAD

no matter the supply, its a crap shoot. however I would not put in a $18 PSU
in any machine that I use or build. Its skimping on the most important part
of the system and I do not appreciate the 'heightened adrenaline rush some
get when they press the power button and the machine actually powers up.
 
W

Wes Newell

I've blown half a dozen of the cheapo ones before learning my lesson,
virtually always they died when there was unstable power coming in from
the mains. I've yet to lose a "name brand" (my desktop is Antec, my
servers are something else, I forget what off-hand, but some of them
have been going 5-6 years)

The Novell server where I used to work had a failed PSU in 1995. It was a
name brand that came with the server which originally was a 386. I
replaced it with a no-name and it's still running today after 10 years, as
is the drives from the same time frame. BTW, If you had bad power coming
in, you should have fixed that with a regulated UPS. Changing the PSU
didn't fix anything. It only masked the problem. That's if I believed you
actually lost 6 PSU's to this, which I don't.:)
 
L

Leythos

The Novell server where I used to work had a failed PSU in 1995. It was a
name brand that came with the server which originally was a 386. I
replaced it with a no-name and it's still running today after 10 years, as
is the drives from the same time frame. BTW, If you had bad power coming
in, you should have fixed that with a regulated UPS. Changing the PSU
didn't fix anything. It only masked the problem. That's if I believed you
actually lost 6 PSU's to this, which I don't.:)

Interesting observations, but, there are still many unknowns:

1) How bad is the power condition?

2) How often is it bad?

3) What is the primary power condition when the PSU fails?

I've seen many differences between cheap PSU units and higher quality
units that cost about double.

Most UPS's don't condition the power until you get into the more
expensive units - some only kick in when you are above/below a certain
voltage, better units will condition the power full time.

As a side note, I have a computer from 1976 that still runs and has
needed no repairs, but I also use it on a 10kva line conditioner and UPS
when I turn it on (not often, just for kicks to remind me were we've
come from).
 
W

Wes Newell

Just because you made it up doesn't make it so.
Sorry, unlike others, I only dissimnate facts. If you care to look it up.
There's reviews on either tomshardware or anandtech that I took this
info from. It shows that many name brand units wouldn't put up the max
output, with some even blowing up. So go look it up.
The point was clear as a bell. The supposed 'watts' on the el-cheapos
isn't what they'll do.
Some will, some won't. Just like name brands. It's really doesn't matter.
In other words, it does what it says.
I don't know if it will or won't. For this I just assumed it will. Are
yo7u doubting Antec?:)
Dream on. Not even close.
More guesswork I see.
The one that does what it says because then you know what it does.
You sound like a 2 year old.
Aint no savings at all if you have to buy a UPS just to keep your
el-cheap PSU running.
I don't care if you have the cheapest PSU made or a $200 PC Power &
cooling PSU, running the system without a UPS is just plain stupid unless
you don't care about your system

It's not hogwash when you're doing a critical task and power fails and you
loose the data and maybe a few hundred hours work.
Lucky you. Others aren't so lucky. Buy crap and gamble.
Luck has nothing to do with it.
Not to mention I have a natural aversion to liars just on general
principle, even if nothing else, and that includes folks who advertise
B.S. Watts to sucker fools into buying them.

Well, at one point in time that would include almost all (if not all) name
brand PSU makers. Look up the reviews and you will see this.

Here's the most current, with 6 out of 19 name brand PSU's failing the
test.
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/200507111/stresstest-28.html

So who's really dishing out BS?:)
 
K

kony

And neither will some name brand models that cost 5 times more, so what's
your point?

"Some"? Sure, one can buy a pseudo-name brand instead of a
major PSU manufacturer name-brand and get stung, but in
general, no, there is a clear correlation between
name-brands having significantly higher output per labeled
wattage.
Hmmm.... I need 400W, so I buy a 400Antec that will put out
400W for say $50, or I buy a 600W for $18 that will only put out 550W.

This is where you keep going wrong, time after time it's
been pointed out to you but you don't even do the testing
necessary to draw a conclusion. Your $18 pseudo-"600W" PSU
_CANNOT_ put out 550W. You're making up nonsense and have
no evidence whatsoever that it can even put out 400W
long-term. There are of course kids out there that draw
ridiculous conclusions akin to "I ran a 500W car amp from
one therefore it's fine"... which is fine if that car amp
were using 500W continuous power but that's not how audio
works, it wouldn't be listenable at all if the peaks were
all chopped @ 500W.
Now
which is the best deal?

The one where it works as labeled instead of supporting
fraud. The one where you can use specs to determine what
you need instead of it being like a lottery.
But wait, you say the Antec has larger caps. Wow,
so instead of the system crashing in 5ms during a brownout, the Antac will
go for 10ms.:) Spend the money you save on a UPS. That's muxh more
important than a name brand PSU.

You show your ignorance here. There is NOTHING an inline
filter before the PSU, nor line conditioner, nor UPS, can do
to change the problem with insufficient capacitors on the
output of a SMPS. However, if I were you and trying to use
one, I'd build some kind of buffer board that plugs into a
4-pin molex, with the caps the PSU should've had in it to
begin with. The time and cost will offset the low cost of
the generic though, and be of lesser benefit, but at least
it attempts to combat one of the problems.

Then of course you'd have to replace the fan(s) too.
My cheap 600W that some name brand zealots predicted would be dead within
a year is now into the 18th month of 24/7 operation Both my cheap PSU's
for my K7 systems are still going after 5 years, and the really cheap 400W
in my current backup K7 system is still going after about 3 years. if you
want bragging rights, buy a name brand.

Yeah, you want to claim systems that need roughly 100-250W
total output are a test of a so-called 600W PSU. Hint- If
you only needed 250W output all you had to do was buy an
accurately rated ATX12V 300W PSU, so your ideas about 5X the
cost are unfounded... and this doesn't even consider that
for these systems you have running, PLENTY of people have
had their generic PSUs fail, then had to buy another PSU, a
better one, wasting money on the generic the first time
around and some even frying parts along the way.

The issue is that rated wattage is a primary factor in
qualifying a PSU for any particular use. You'd like to
discount one-part-at-a-time but then fail to accept that
after all these downgraded parts are considered, the unit
doesn't actually have similar output capability long-term
and cannot be qualified for higher-end uses based on it's
rating.

Who is claiming a system usually needs a "550W" PSU though?
The numbers you're citing are essentially fictional and
can't be applied in any context except what's printed onto a
generc PSU's label. Determine accurate system needs then
pair with a PSU proven to be able to supply that... it IS
possible to select a generic that can do it, but even then
you face other issues like the fan quality or protection
circuitry.
 
W

Wes Newell

Your cheap $18 PSU has low amperage on the 12 volt rail compared to the
Antec (and amperage is more critical than rock steady voltage).

Didn't check and don't care. At 24A it's more than adequate.
Your cheap $18 PSU has no feedback protection, and does not stabilize
for several *SECONDS* after powering up.

I'm not even concerned if this is true or not.
You are a cretin for espousing the use of a cheap PSU on any system.
The fact that you have no issues is indicative that the rest of the
hardware in your system is as equally crappy as the
$18 PSU you use. I bet you drive a rusted out POS car, too.
So now you want to make it personal with name calling? First, my car has
about 15K miles on it. And second, you are just another moron that spouts
out crap that you don't agree with even if you can't offer any real
first hand proof. I suspect the only thing you use your hand for is done
in bedroom upon yourself. I think you've been just a little benighted.
 
W

Wes Newell

no matter the supply, its a crap shoot. however I would not put in a $18 PSU
in any machine that I use or build. Its skimping on the most important part
of the system and I do not appreciate the 'heightened adrenaline rush some
get when they press the power button and the machine actually powers up.
To each his own. I don't need the rush. And as I run my system 24/7 I
don't push the power button often. By all means, if one can afford a high
dollar PSU, it should work as well as a cheap one, maybe better, but just
maybe.
 
D

David Maynard

Wes said:
The Novell server where I used to work had a failed PSU in 1995. It was a
name brand that came with the server which originally was a 386. I
replaced it with a no-name and it's still running today after 10 years,

I hate to tell you this but trying to make judgments about arbitrary 'no
names' today based on an unspecified PSU bought 10 years ago is nonsense
even beyond anecdotal stories being close to useless.
 
D

David Maynard

Wes said:
Sorry, unlike others, I only dissimnate facts.

You haven't disseminated a 'fact' yet.
If you care to look it up.
There's reviews on either tomshardware or anandtech that I took this
info from. It shows that many name brand units wouldn't put up the max
output, with some even blowing up. So go look it up.

You're the one making the claim. YOU look it up.
Some will, some won't. Just like name brands. It's really doesn't matter.

Utter nonsense.

I don't know if it will or won't.

The premise you posed was that it did. Now you don't know your own premise?
For this I just assumed it will.

You make 'assumptions' all over the place, mostly incorrect ones.
Are
yo7u doubting Antec?:)

You're the one who brought up Antec. It's your problem.
More guesswork I see.

Nope. Comes from looking at a ton of them and replacing a ton of failed
ones suckers bought.

Some of them will even tell you they're lying, after you've bought it and
look at the sticker inside to discover the '600 Watts' emblazoned across
the package front is really an undefined and meaningless "peak watts."
You sound like a 2 year old.

Since you had so much trouble understanding it I put in a simple manner you
could grasp.
I don't care if you have the cheapest PSU made or a $200 PC Power &
cooling PSU, running the system without a UPS is just plain stupid unless
you don't care about your system

More nonsense.

It's not hogwash when you're doing a critical task and power fails and you
loose the data and maybe a few hundred hours work.

Yes, claiming a UPS is more important than the PSU is hogwash and, in case
you hadn't noticed, a UPS won't keep a system up if the PSU craters nor
will it turn an el-cheapo '550 watt' PSU only capable of 350-400 Watts,
knock on wood, into a 550 Watt PSU like the lying sticker said it was.

Luck has nothing to do with it.

More nonsense.

Well, at one point in time that would include almost all (if not all) name
brand PSU makers. Look up the reviews and you will see this.

Here's the most current, with 6 out of 19 name brand PSU's failing the
test.
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/200507111/stresstest-28.html

So who's really dishing out BS?:)

You are and taking that review to make the claim el-cheapos and 'name
brands' are 'the same' and it "doesn't matter" is a good example of it.

In the first place, I never said all, or any particular, 'brand' and every
model they make was perfect. Second, you're taking a test where any anomaly
whatsoever results in a 'fail' and then claiming missing a spec by a small
amount under the most dire conditions is 'the same' as not coming even
close under any conditions, as with the 15 buck el-cheapos.

Case in point, taken at random, the $130 Hiper Type R580 passed every test
relative to the specification except the 12 volt being 12.32 vs a maximum
of 12.3. So it failed by being off .16% and you then claim this is 'the
same' as a supposed "550 watt" el-cheapo only managing 350-400 watts at God
only knows what voltages. *That* is "B.S."

And I'm being generous in the comparison because the el-cheapo's 'failure'
is likely to be a complete self destruct rather that some minuscule voltage
error on the 12 volt rail where it has negligible effect.

Not to mention that all the classic 'brands' one might consider a 'brand
name' PSU PASSED under full 'box label' load.
 
K

kony

The Novell server where I used to work had a failed PSU in 1995. It was a
name brand that came with the server which originally was a 386. I
replaced it with a no-name and it's still running today after 10 years, as
is the drives from the same time frame. BTW, If you had bad power coming
in, you should have fixed that with a regulated UPS. Changing the PSU
didn't fix anything. It only masked the problem. That's if I believed you
actually lost 6 PSU's to this, which I don't.:)


Actually, some PSU do a pretty good job of dealing with bad
power. They're Active PFC types. They're no miracle cure
for really bad power, but then a computer is not the only
equipment that would suffer from really bad power, the whole
'site would need something that benefits the system(s) as
well.
 
K

kony

I hate to tell you this but trying to make judgments about arbitrary 'no
names' today based on an unspecified PSU bought 10 years ago is nonsense
even beyond anecdotal stories being close to useless.

Even IF it were applicable, it ignores an important issue-
that modern system have potential for over 2X the peak
current requirements but typical generics haven't 2X the
current potential. Many just install a larger fuse!
 
K

kony

Sorry, unlike others, I only dissimnate facts. If you care to look it up.
There's reviews on either tomshardware or anandtech that I took this
info from. It shows that many name brand units wouldn't put up the max
output, with some even blowing up. So go look it up.

Ever wonder why they don't even BOTHER to test the generics?
If these $18 PSU were such a great deal, don't you imagine
the first thing they'd do is try to send shockwaves through
the computer industry by demonstrating them doing well?
Historically, Tomshardware has had this kind of
sensationalistic coverage, if they could claim as much they
certainly would.

Some will, some won't. Just like name brands. It's really doesn't matter.

You continue to guess.
Open the generic, and part-by-part, assess it. Look at the
specs, size and quality of components. Your "idea" of what
matters has no basis whatsoever, except that you ran them in
systems that only needed a fraction of the power the
generics claimed they could provide- a fraction < 1/2.

I don't care if you have the cheapest PSU made or a $200 PC Power &
cooling PSU, running the system without a UPS is just plain stupid unless
you don't care about your system

Actually, the reports I've seen from people suffering
failures suggest just the opposite, that poor PSU fail a LOT
more often than systems without an UPS.

It's not hogwash when you're doing a critical task and power fails and you
loose the data and maybe a few hundred hours work.

If you have worked for a few hundred hours without saving
your data, perhaps it's good that you lose it- and then
learn to do so.

Here's the most current, with 6 out of 19 name brand PSU's failing the
test.
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/200507111/stresstest-28.html

So who's really dishing out BS?:)

You.

Citing a review where a PSU would fail if it puts out over
90% of it's rated capacity, is an even more significant
reason to choose a GOOD name-brand instead of a generic that
can't even BEGIN TO RUN THE TEST AT ALL because it is so
grossly overrated.

Did you catch what I just wrote?
You can't EVEN RUN the tests Tom's Hardware did on most
generics because the can't even sustain that wattage for
long enough to start the test, let alone fail later. That
is a very significant difference.
 
K

kony

Didn't check and don't care. At 24A it's more than adequate.

Now if only it really was 24A. It's not.
Go ahead and hook up a .5 Ohm load to it, then tell us if it
can run for even a week.

I'm not even concerned if this is true or not.

Of course not, because you're oblivious to anything but
"cheapest". I"m sure those who have had hardware fail from
generics, are really happy you are not concerned.
So now you want to make it personal with name calling? First, my car has
about 15K miles on it. And second, you are just another moron that spouts
out crap that you don't agree with even if you can't offer any real
first hand proof. I suspect the only thing you use your hand for is done
in bedroom upon yourself. I think you've been just a little benighted.

I'm not so sure that above response is any better than
name-calling, shouldn't we just stick to the topic? IE-
whether you have actually demonstrated these generics can
come even remotely close to the same output per label as
presumed good name-brands? What about fraud? Do you like
it when companies try to cheat people with fake ratings?
You're supporting it.
 
H

High

kony said:
You can't EVEN RUN the tests Tom's Hardware did on most
generics because the can't even sustain that wattage for
long enough to start the test, let alone fail later. That
is a very significant difference.
Bullshit, do you have data to back this up or you just speaking through
your flappy anus mouth?
 
K

kony

Bullshit, do you have data to back this up or you just speaking through
your flappy anus mouth?

Thanks for trolling by!

Yes, the data is EVERYWHERE.
What better proof that to observe it yourself? Buy that $18
600W generic then load it to what (would be) a 600W output
then see if it keeps the rails in spec. If it can't do
that, the test can't start.
 
W

Wes Newell

Most UPS's don't condition the power until you get into the more
expensive units - some only kick in when you are above/below a certain
voltage, better units will condition the power full time.
At one point in time this was correct, but I think the majority of todays
UPS's have a regulated output, even the cheaper models. I do know that
cheap model APC's (Back-Ups) are still unregulated, but I think most
others have switched to regulated output. Again indicating that buying
name brand isn't always best. My cheap very old Powercom 650va unit is
regulated as is the Belkin I have. I've aslo got an APC Back-Ups-400 that
is not regulated. The only thing connected to is a monitor. At the time I
bought the powercom it was about a third of the price of an APC that was
unregulated. I didn't buy the APC. It was found left in my rent house
with dead batteries.
 
D

David Maynard

kony said:
Even IF it were applicable, it ignores an important issue-
that modern system have potential for over 2X the peak
current requirements but typical generics haven't 2X the
current potential. Many just install a larger fuse!

Yes. That's what I meant about "10 years ago." Virtually nothing in the
computer world is the same as "10 years ago" so it's meaningless.
 

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