Windows ME or 2000 instead of XP

[Patrick]

From the few machines I've seen running it, ME was a fetid pile of dingos
kidneys - and was actually a backwards step from 98SE.

Go for 2000 and update it to SP4 - best O/S that Microsoft have managed so
far.

You are bound to find an exception to any rule. I run one WinME
machine, as a 1.3Ghz Duron, and serve Limewire from Cheetah 10,000 rpm
SCSI drives with it. Behind a firewall, and current with all the
updates, it has had exactly the same up-time as my Athlon 1.4Ghz machine
that runs XP Pro!

In fact, it is almost as regular as all of my Linux machines, on my
networks, with the exceptions that both MS environment machines do need
re-boots about once a week, plus, they take up about an extra 2 to 3
hours of patching and de-lousing each week...

WinME does offer better stability than Win98SE, plus, a few more
advanced options that are already embedded, such as USB (but, can be
easily loaded into Win98SE).

I much prefer WinME to Win98SE, and recommend it to folks, above XP,
which is such a huge resource pig... Have little experience with Win2k,
although I suspect it also requires large assets...

My other 20 machines all run Debian, loaded upon the hard drive from
Knoppix in 20-4- minutes, and run totally flawlessly on P90's to AMD
XP3200's... http://knopper.net/knoppix has ~90 versions, one is
probably suited exactly to your likes and needs!

 

[David Maynard]

Patrick wrote:

My other 20 machines all run Debian, loaded upon the hard drive from
Knoppix in 20-4- minutes, and run totally flawlessly on P90's to AMD
XP3200's... http://knopper.net/knoppix has ~90 versions, one is
probably suited exactly to your likes and needs!

I've been looking at those small linux distros too and am currently playing
with Feather, which is a remaster of Knoppix. Reason I tried Feather was
for the smaller, faster, XVesa server, and Fluxbox WM. Feather isn't quite
all worked out though.

My question is, how much RAM do you use on the P90 class machines and how
is the response time? And what do you 'run' on them, as far as apps I mean?

 

[Patrick]

Patrick wrote:




I've been looking at those small linux distros too and am currently
playing with Feather, which is a remaster of Knoppix. Reason I tried
Feather was for the smaller, faster, XVesa server, and Fluxbox WM.
Feather isn't quite all worked out though.

My question is, how much RAM do you use on the P90 class machines and
how is the response time? And what do you 'run' on them, as far as apps
I mean?

Machines under 233Mhz take about a full minute +, to boot up...
so, I really enjoy running any modern distro at 266Mhz or faster.

But, to have some fun, I like to put linux on tiny resource machines.
Smallest RAM I have got to work was 8 Mb on a 486, but, NOT with
Knoppix, and any modern full blown office apps.! Usually at least 24Mb,
because, I have a shoe box full of DRAM, both 32 pin, and 72 pin...
The real pain is hitting one of the hard drive size restrictions in the
BIOS, as many of the older boards haven't a new BIOS available.

Any machine that ran MS windows 3.0/3.1/3.11 can run a stripped down
Linux, and I like to run XFCE as the small desktop GUI.

 

[Paul-B - the original and the best!]

Patrick posted:

from >> Knoppix in 20-4- minutes, and run totally flawlessly on P90's
to AMD >> XP3200's... http://knopper.net/knoppix has ~90 versions,
one is >> probably suited exactly to your likes and needs!
Machines under 233Mhz take about a full minute +, to boot up...
so, I really enjoy running any modern distro at 266Mhz or faster.

But, to have some fun, I like to put linux on tiny resource machines.
Smallest RAM I have got to work was 8 Mb on a 486, but, NOT with
Knoppix, and any modern full blown office apps.! Usually at least
24Mb, because, I have a shoe box full of DRAM, both 32 pin, and 72
pin... The real pain is hitting one of the hard drive size
restrictions in the BIOS, as many of the older boards haven't a new
BIOS available.

Any machine that ran MS windows 3.0/3.1/3.11 can run a stripped down
Linux, and I like to run XFCE as the small desktop GUI.

This may well be off-topic, but can you recommend a decent Linux distro
which I can use in place of Windows 2000 Server? Getting tired of its
instability and cost. I'm looking for something which I can use as a
fileserver, mailserver, and possibly a webserver.

I've tried E-Smith, but couldn't get it to pick up my ADSL Wireless
modem-router.

TIA

--
Paul-B

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti

Reply to address is spam-trap. Use paul at streetka dot biz if you
really must!

 

[Mac Cool]

This may well be off-topic, but can you recommend a decent Linux distro
which I can use in place of Windows 2000 Server?
Debian
http://www.distrowatch.com/

Getting tired of its instability and cost.

Don't take this the wrong way but if you can't get run Win2K to run
stable, I doubt you'll have better luck with Linux. We had a Win2K server
that had ran for 2 years without a crash at my former job. Neither W2K nor
XP have any inherent stability problems. I run XP at home and I have had
it running for months at a time, in fact, the only time I have seen XP
crash was because of some 3rd party app.

If you want to play around with Linux for fun or because it's free, that's
a good reason.

 

[Paul-B - the original and the best!]

Mac Cool posted:

Don't take this the wrong way but if you can't get run Win2K to run
stable, I doubt you'll have better luck with Linux. We had a Win2K
server that had ran for 2 years without a crash at my former job.
Neither W2K nor XP have any inherent stability problems. I run XP at
home and I have had it running for months at a time, in fact, the
only time I have seen XP crash was because of some 3rd party app.

Normally I'd agree, I've built quite a few W2K Servers over the past
couple of years and once set-up they're fine. It's just that every now
and then I get one which fires off lots of critical event id's and it
takes forever and a day to sort them out. Given that W2K Server plus
CAL's is pretty expensive I thought it might be worth looking at
alternatives.

If you want to play around with Linux for fun or because it's free,
that's a good reason.

That too... trouble is, there's only so many hours in a day :-(

--
Paul-B

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti

Reply to address is spam-trap. Use paul at streetka dot biz if you
really must!

 

[David Maynard]

Machines under 233Mhz take about a full minute +, to boot up...
so, I really enjoy running any modern distro at 266Mhz or faster.

Yes, well, I'm not trying to be impractical and I realize the old pentium
classic machines aren't going to boot in 10 seconds. hehe

But, to have some fun, I like to put linux on tiny resource machines.

That IS the point of what I'm trying to do. Might even make my own distro
if it could ever be made clean enough to actually work. So far, all the
ones I've looked at a rife with problems of one sort or the other.

Smallest RAM I have got to work was 8 Mb on a 486, but, NOT with
Knoppix, and any modern full blown office apps.! Usually at least 24Mb,
because, I have a shoe box full of DRAM, both 32 pin, and 72 pin...
The real pain is hitting one of the hard drive size restrictions in the
BIOS, as many of the older boards haven't a new BIOS available.

I see. Yes, I know openoffice isn't going to run in 8Meg. Ain't going to
run with less than century measured load times in 32 either. And it's good
for a nice long coffee break with 64Meg on a P166MMX.

Abiword seems reasonable though. And ABS for a spreadsheet. Dillo, even
patched, isn't quite good enough but Opera seems pretty efficient for the
small machines.

Yeah, 24 sounds doable, from what I've seen, but I'd say 32 Meg minimum
with 64 Meg strongly recommended.

Any machine that ran MS windows 3.0/3.1/3.11 can run a stripped down
Linux, and I like to run XFCE as the small desktop GUI.

I haven't used XFCE yet but am downloading Luit Linux right now. That one
uses it but, from the forums, even dpkg isn't working yet on it. Fluxbox is
just too 'different' for the average home user.

Interesting that you complained about the hard drive size. My goal is to
get it under the original 512 Meg limit (which precludes openoffice almost
by definition). The 'reasonably useful' one I'm playing with now is using
350Meg plus a 64 Meg swap. (Abiword, Opera, xPDF, xmms, dpkg, apt-get,
firefox, plus what's on the feather distribution, although I'll probably
take firefox out because it's rather big and slow.)

IMO, the thing holding people back from using the older machines isn't just
the speed; it's that the newer versions of office apps, and such, won't
install on the older O.S.'s and the newer Windows won't install, or are
simply too bloated to run with any reasonable response times (not to
mention the cost of doing so for what would be a 'slow' computer). What I'm
trying to do is find a combination that has enough 'compatibility' to be
useful with the idea being that, for 'families', you don't necessarily need
the 'big' machine to do everything, with the resultant fight for the
keyboard, on 'the computer'.

Of course, I could be crazy

 

[David Maynard]

Don't take this the wrong way but if you can't get run Win2K to run
stable, I doubt you'll have better luck with Linux. We had a Win2K server
that had ran for 2 years without a crash at my former job. Neither W2K nor
XP have any inherent stability problems. I run XP at home and I have had
it running for months at a time, in fact, the only time I have seen XP
crash was because of some 3rd party app.

I was thinking the same thing and Linux sure doesn't make things any 'easier'.

 

[Gene Puhl]

You are bound to find an exception to any rule. I run one WinME
machine, as a 1.3Ghz Duron, and serve Limewire from Cheetah 10,000 rpm
SCSI drives with it. Behind a firewall, and current with all the
updates, it has had exactly the same up-time as my Athlon 1.4Ghz machine
that runs XP Pro!

In fact, it is almost as regular as all of my Linux machines, on my
networks, with the exceptions that both MS environment machines do need
re-boots about once a week, plus, they take up about an extra 2 to 3
hours of patching and de-lousing each week...

WinME does offer better stability than Win98SE, plus, a few more
advanced options that are already embedded, such as USB (but, can be
easily loaded into Win98SE).

I much prefer WinME to Win98SE, and recommend it to folks, above XP,
which is such a huge resource pig... Have little experience with Win2k,
although I suspect it also requires large assets...

Running 2 machines with ME and 1 with XP. I have learned to NEVER upgrade
to ME. As a clean install, it runs sweet, although it's device database is
limited, but these days, more ME drivers are available.
The point is moot however, in that it's an old OS, but for older computers,
it's a good OS that doesn't suck resources like 2000 and XP.

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

Bitstring <[email protected]>, from the

The point is moot however, in that it's an old OS, but for older computers,
it's a good OS that doesn't suck resources like 2000 and XP.

But sucks them much worse than Win05 OSR2 or even Win98SE, while
offering little extra by way of compensation. And regularly running out
of 'resources' and generally getting it's knickers in a twist.

I'd take Win2k over WinME any time, even if WinME was free. I'd take
Win95 OSR2, unless I actually needed proper USB handling.

 

[Dave C.]

Running 2 machines with ME and 1 with XP. I have learned to NEVER upgrade
to ME. As a clean install, it runs sweet, although it's device database is
limited, but these days, more ME drivers are available.
The point is moot however, in that it's an old OS, but for older computers,
it's a good OS that doesn't suck resources like 2000 and XP.

What are you talking about? ME is a real dog of a program. I've upgraded
two systems from ME to XP and couldn't be happier. Both are faster and
infinitely more stable now. -Dave

 

[David Maynard]

What are you talking about? ME is a real dog of a program. I've upgraded
two systems from ME to XP and couldn't be happier. Both are faster and
infinitely more stable now. -Dave

I agree. WinME is a dog and I won't touch it again. Older machines get
win98se and newer ones get either Windows 2000 or XP.

 

[Patrick]

I agree. WinME is a dog and I won't touch it again. Older machines get
win98se and newer ones get either Windows 2000 or XP.

I have both win98SE, and winME. Of those 'disposable' systems, I much
prefer winME, using it on one system for the kids' games, and on
Limewire, 24/7/365 (distributing Linux and IPCOP distros). It seems to
run the longest between shutdowns, BSODs, lock-ups... about 10 days,
unless we try to run a couple of games... ME has USB Mass storage built
in, along with some other support...

My other 20+ networked systems run Debian GNU/Linux.

One client runs XP Pro on the network. Yes, it breaks down about every
ten-twelve days, too.

My only real problem with all of the MS systems is the huge amount of
upkeep, maintenance of drivers, upgrades, and the anti-spybot,
anti-pop-ups, anti-virus programs needed. Yeah, I saw the annoucement
last week that there are more than 90,000 virus, and tons of w0rms, all
targeting MS products weaknesses and vulnerabilities, of which there are
hundreds... another reason to run an old computer on IPCOP
firewall/router... http://distrowatch.com

My favorite system is the Knoppix LiveCD, first as a test/restore for
windows, right off the LiveCDrom, and, because, as an installed Debian
GNU/Linux system, it is very stable and complete for my needs, and all
the needs of my clients, and, it runs on everything from a small and old
p133, up to the latest SMP systems.
http://knopper.net/knoppix

Like using a square tipped shovel to pick up manure, while we use the
spade for planting the garden. Use the best tools for any job.

 

[David Maynard]

I have both win98SE, and winME. Of those 'disposable' systems, I much
prefer winME, using it on one system for the kids' games, and on
Limewire, 24/7/365 (distributing Linux and IPCOP distros). It seems to
run the longest between shutdowns, BSODs, lock-ups... about 10 days,
unless we try to run a couple of games... ME has USB Mass storage built
in, along with some other support...

If you like it then more power to ya.

My other 20+ networked systems run Debian GNU/Linux.

One client runs XP Pro on the network. Yes, it breaks down about every
ten-twelve days, too.

I have the opposite results. I run two Win2K Servers, one for routing and
the other a domain controller, and I can't remember when I last booted
either of them.

My 'armchair' console runs win98se because the touch panel driver requires
win9x but I don't see these '10 day breakdowns' you speak of. I just leave
it on so I can use it 'whenever' I feel like it (runs my web TV guide, ICQ,
HTPC remote control, network browser, and general web browsing when I get
curious about something).

My other machines, a collection of Linux, Win98 (for older hardware
support) and WinXP, get turned off when not in use so I don't have a 'time
up' record for them but "I'm done" is the only time the go down (or I've
decided to change the hardware for some reason). Heck, I've even got a
couple of Win95 and WFW 3.11 machines for nostalgia's sake.

WinME, however, was a perpetual pain in the rear for me, in addition to
being dog slow.

My only real problem with all of the MS systems is the huge amount of
upkeep, maintenance of drivers, upgrades, and the anti-spybot,
anti-pop-ups, anti-virus programs needed. Yeah, I saw the annoucement
last week that there are more than 90,000 virus, and tons of w0rms, all
targeting MS products weaknesses and vulnerabilities, of which there are
hundreds... another reason to run an old computer on IPCOP
firewall/router... http://distrowatch.com

You don't notice the perpetual stream of Linux security updates?

My favorite system is the Knoppix LiveCD, first as a test/restore for
windows, right off the LiveCDrom, and, because, as an installed Debian
GNU/Linux system, it is very stable and complete for my needs, and all
the needs of my clients, and, it runs on everything from a small and old
p133, up to the latest SMP systems.
http://knopper.net/knoppix

I'm using Damn Small Linux and Feather linux, both Knoppix remasters, for
those.

Like using a square tipped shovel to pick up manure, while we use the
spade for planting the garden. Use the best tools for any job.

Agreed.