windows firewall and onecare package

[nweissma]

I subscribed to the 90-day trial period of ms onecare. I understand that
windows firewall is NOT part of this package, but rather is an integral part
of vista (home premium, in my case)

but this understanding may be wrong! if it is, please apprise. I am confused
as to the relation between windows defender and windows firewall.

anyway, windows firewall has a proclivity to shut itself off, without
warning: "windows firewall service is not running."

this has happened to me at least twice that I can remember (2 -two -ms techs
had me on the phone, with easy assist, for nearly 4 hours before they were
able to rectify it the first time).

in any event, I am considering removing onecare and installing separate,
independent units: antivirus, antispyware, registry cleaner, disk cleanup,
disk defragmenter, and monitoring of open ports. if I remove onecare, will
windows firewall still be in effect? should I disable it and replace with an
independent firewall?

I understand that antimalware packages consume a lot of resources and are,
pound-for-pound, significantly less effective than individual components.

please offer advice - any contribution is welcome.




--Fool On The Hill

 

[Rock]

I subscribed to the 90-day trial period of ms onecare. I understand that
windows firewall is NOT part of this package, but rather is an integral
part of vista (home premium, in my case)

Vista comes with a firewall. OneCare also comes with it's own version of a
firewall with different capabilities. If using OneCare use that firewall.
Only one firewall should be active at a time. I believe OneCare turns of
the built in firewall but I'm not sure about that.

For questions about OneCare it's best to post to one of the specific forums
for it.
http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/default.aspx?ForumGroupID=28&SiteID=2

but this understanding may be wrong! if it is, please apprise. I am
confused as to the relation between windows defender and windows firewall.

They are apples and oranges. The firewall doesn't detect malware, it
monitors connections from the internt to your system. Defender is an
anti-spyware app, that is active in memory. It does not deal with viral
malware so an AV program is still needed. OneCare has it's own version of
Defender.

anyway, windows firewall has a proclivity to shut itself off, without
warning: "windows firewall service is not running."

this has happened to me at least twice that I can remember (2 -two -ms
techs had me on the phone, with easy assist, for nearly 4 hours before
they were able to rectify it the first time).

in any event, I am considering removing onecare and installing separate,
independent units: antivirus, antispyware, registry cleaner, disk cleanup,
disk defragmenter, and monitoring of open ports. if I remove onecare, will
windows firewall still be in effect? should I disable it and replace with
an independent firewall?

Yes you need to install an anti-virus. Vista does not have one. I
recommend either Avast (free), or NOD32 (paid). Some folks also like AVG
(free).

For anti-spyware, you should have a combination of programs, with one active
in memory. Defender is fine for this. Use the others to do an occasional
scan. The ones I suggest are Ad-Aware SE Personal, Spybot S&D, and Spyware
Blaster (this is not a scanner, but is helpful to stop malware from getting
installed).

Do not use a registry cleaner. There is no need for it. Any issues with
the registry should be handled with knowledge and direct editing of the
particular setting. I know OneCare has a registry cleaner, but I would
recommend agains using any registry cleaner. They cause more problems than
they fixx.

Disk cleanup is just the process of deleting temp files and other files that
have accumulated over time, but are not needed. Vista has a cleanup
feature. Double click on Computer, right click on a drive, choose
properties then Disk Cleanup. OneCare has a cleanup function as well. A
3rd party app that's good for removing a variety of temp files is CCleaner.
I would recommned, though, not to use the registry cleaning features in this
program.

If OneCare is removed the widows firewall will run just fine.

I understand that antimalware packages consume a lot of resources and are,
pound-for-pound, significantly less effective than individual components.

You mean security packages such as those from Symantec, McAfee, etc. They
come with a firewall, AV, anti-spyware and a host of other features. Yes, I
agree, these tend to be resource heavy, and can be problematic. I recommend
not using any of the large security suites. There is no need for a 3rd
party firewall. Vista's firewall or the one in OneCare is fine.

please offer advice - any contribution is welcome.

On this system, Vista Ultimate, I use the built in firewall, Avast
Anti-Virus (free), Ad-Aware SE Personal, Spybot S&D, and Spyware Blaster.
All are light on resources and on this system, problem free.

I also use a router between the cable modem and the computer. It has NAT
(Network Address Translation) and SPI (Stateful packet inspection). Home
routers are inexpensive, in the $50-60 range. It is not a firewall, but it
functions as a first line of defense against intrusions from the internet.

The most important part of safe computing is the operator using common
sense.

http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/before_you_plug_in.html#III

http://www.claymania.com/safe-hex.html

 

[nweissma]

Thank you, Rock!

a few things that you've said have shaken me. please see my intercalated
comments and questions:

--


--Fool On The Hill

Vista comes with a firewall. OneCare also comes with it's own version of
a firewall with different capabilities. If using OneCare use that
firewall. Only one firewall should be active at a time. I believe OneCare
turns of the built in firewall but I'm not sure about that.

no, it does not automatically shut off the built-in firewall. that was the
very issue that caused the 2 ms techs to easy assist my computer for nearly
4 hours - to cause onecare to cease recognizing the built-in. (the onecare
icon, in the notification tray, obstinately held its glowing red color)

For questions about OneCare it's best to post to one of the specific
forums for it.
http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/default.aspx?ForumGroupID=28&SiteID=2

thank you for these leads

They are apples and oranges. The firewall doesn't detect malware, it
monitors connections from the internt to your system. Defender is an
anti-spyware app, that is active in memory. It does not deal with viral
malware so an AV program is still needed. OneCare has it's own version of
Defender.

********************************************************************************
WHOA!!!!

ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL THIS TIME I'VE BEEN SURFING WITHOUT AV
PROTECTION?!!!
********************************************************************************

jeez!! thank you again, Rock!

iou.


what can you say about my problem with onecare's firewall unceremoniously,
and without announcement, ceasing to function -- and I have no way to do
anything about it? I will visit the link you just offered and ask in that
forum, but I just wondered what thoughts you might have about it.

Yes you need to install an anti-virus. Vista does not have one. I
recommend either Avast (free), or NOD32 (paid). Some folks also like AVG
(free).

spywarewarrior highly recommends SPYWARE DOCTOR, and yet no one here, or in
most other forums, even mentions it. why?

For anti-spyware, you should have a combination of programs, with one
active in memory. Defender is fine for this. Use the others to do an
occasional scan. The ones I suggest are Ad-Aware SE Personal, Spybot S&D,
and Spyware Blaster (this is not a scanner, but is helpful to stop malware
from getting installed).

you are saying that defender should be the tsr of choice, adaware se
personal should be used only for scans on demand, and spybot s&d should be
used only for scans on demand. did I understand you?

but I don't understand the niche for spyware blaster: it is not a scanner,
and it can't be used as a tsr because it will conflict with defender. so,
how do I use it?

Do not use a registry cleaner. There is no need for it. Any issues with
the registry should be handled with knowledge and direct editing of the
particular setting. I know OneCare has a registry cleaner, but I would
recommend agains using any registry cleaner. They cause more problems
than they fix.

I know this a stupid newbie question, but I, qua newbie, need this query
answered: if a registry cleaner causes serious problems then why does ms use
it? and how do I acquire the skill to housekeep the registry?

Disk cleanup is just the process of deleting temp files and other files
that have accumulated over time, but are not needed. Vista has a cleanup
feature. Double click on Computer, right click on a drive, choose
properties then Disk Cleanup. OneCare has a cleanup function as well. A
3rd party app that's good for removing a variety of temp files is
CCleaner. I would recommned, though, not to use the registry cleaning
features in this program.

your advice is being taken to heart!

If OneCare is removed the widows firewall will run just fine.

you re saying that if I uninstall onecare, then the built-in firewall will
automatically reactivate? I harbor doubts!: I think those 2 ms techs
zombified the vista built-in; a vodoun-like ceremony will be necessary to
bring it back to life.

You mean security packages such as those from Symantec, McAfee, etc. They
come with a firewall, AV, anti-spyware and a host of other features. Yes,
I agree, these tend to be resource heavy, and can be problematic. I
recommend not using any of the large security suites. There is no need
for a 3rd party firewall. Vista's firewall or the one in OneCare is fine.

ms is difficult to get hold of to query how to resolve the onecare firewall
problem (it ceases without warning, and I have no idea how to activate it.)
perhaps when I uninstall onecare, and revert to the vista built-in firewall,
the problem will be resolved. but if I can't get ms to help me to resurrect
the built-in, what options do you recommend?.

On this system, Vista Ultimate, I use the built in firewall, Avast
Anti-Virus (free), Ad-Aware SE Personal, Spybot S&D, and Spyware Blaster.
All are light on resources and on this system, problem free.

doesn't this list include at least 2 av's, and/or >= 2 antispywares? it was
my understanding that running 2 av's simultaneously, or 2 antispywares
simultaneously, will cause major problems (although, I've read that some
people have done it for years without problems - they say)

I also use a router between the cable modem and the computer. It has NAT
(Network Address Translation) and SPI (Stateful packet inspection). Home
routers are inexpensive, in the $50-60 range. It is not a firewall, but
it functions as a first line of defense against intrusions from the
internet.

recommend a router, please.

my isp has furnished a bridge (router+modem, as i understood customer
service). should i return the bridge, or can i integrate a separate router
along the line?

The most important part of safe computing is the operator using common
sense.

I will read the following 2 links, but I can tell you from experience that
"common sense" is the very target of the malevolents: they found a way
around that a long time ago. call me a conspiratorial fanatic, but I believe
the government does nothing about this, for the same reason they do nothing
about identity theft: they benefit from it!

Rock, many thanks!

let me ask you for one more piece of information. do you know of a vis-a-vis
community, or a colleague, in new york city?

 

[Rock]

Thank you, Rock!

a few things that you've said have shaken me. please see my intercalated
comments and questions:

no, it does not automatically shut off the built-in firewall. that was the
very issue that caused the 2 ms techs to easy assist my computer for
nearly 4 hours - to cause onecare to cease recognizing the built-in. (the
onecare icon, in the notification tray, obstinately held its glowing red
color)

Ok, I don't use OneCare. Best place for these issues is the OneCare forum
as I posted last time.

thank you for these leads



********************************************************************************
WHOA!!!!

ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL THIS TIME I'VE BEEN SURFING WITHOUT AV
PROTECTION?!!!
********************************************************************************

jeez!! thank you again, Rock!

iou.

If you didn't have an AV program installed then yes, since there is no built
in AV in Vista.

what can you say about my problem with onecare's firewall unceremoniously,
and without announcement, ceasing to function -- and I have no way to do
anything about it? I will visit the link you just offered and ask in that
forum, but I just wondered what thoughts you might have about it.

I can't comment, I don't know about OneCare.

spywarewarrior highly recommends SPYWARE DOCTOR, and yet no one here, or
in most other forums, even mentions it. why?

I don't know. I'm not familiar with it.

you are saying that defender should be the tsr of choice, adaware se
personal should be used only for scans on demand, and spybot s&d should be
used only for scans on demand. did I understand you?

No, I'm saying I use Defender as the memory resident scanner for malware
since it comes with Vista, and it seems to work ok. Whether it's the
program of choice is up to you.

I use the free version of Ad-Aware which doesn't have the memory resident
feature, Ad-Watch. The free vesion can only be used for manual scanning.
I'm not sure about the TeaTimer function in SpyBot S&D, but I don't use it.

but I don't understand the niche for spyware blaster: it is not a scanner,
and it can't be used as a tsr because it will conflict with defender. so,
how do I use it?

It's not that it can't be used memory resident, it isn't a memory resident
app. It adds a list of restricted sites to the registry.
http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html

I know this a stupid newbie question, but I, qua newbie, need this query
answered: if a registry cleaner causes serious problems then why does ms
use it? and how do I acquire the skill to housekeep the registry?

I don't know why MS has one with OneCare. They had a registry cleaner years
ago that they pulled, and didn't offer one for XP until OneCare. You aquire
the skill as you would with anything else: time, experience, practice,
reading, research.

your advice is being taken to heart!


you re saying that if I uninstall onecare, then the built-in firewall will
automatically reactivate? I harbor doubts!: I think those 2 ms techs
zombified the vista built-in; a vodoun-like ceremony will be necessary to
bring it back to life.

Ok, I don't know. I don't use OneCare but I haven't seen many posts about
that as a problem.

ms is difficult to get hold of to query how to resolve the onecare
firewall problem (it ceases without warning, and I have no idea how to
activate it.) perhaps when I uninstall onecare, and revert to the vista
built-in firewall, the problem will be resolved. but if I can't get ms to
help me to resurrect the built-in, what options do you recommend?.

These newsgroups, search the web, the OneCare forum and MS tech support.
That about covers all the options.

doesn't this list include at least 2 av's, and/or >= 2 antispywares? it
was my understanding that running 2 av's simultaneously, or 2 antispywares
simultaneously, will cause major problems (although, I've read that some
people have done it for years without problems - they say)

No it does not include two AV's. I listed Avast. That is the only one.
The others are anti-spyware. I said more than one anti-spyware is needed
(because no single program catches it all). I never said anything about
whether more than one of those should be memory resident. Currently in
Vista on this system only Defender is memory resident. In fact I ran
multiple anti-spwyare apps memory resident in XP with no problems.

recommend a router, please.

Depends on your setup, wired, wireless, etc. I'm using a Linksys WRT54GS
which works fine for me. I can't comment on other brands or make a
recommendation.

my isp has furnished a bridge (router+modem, as i understood customer
service). should i return the bridge, or can i integrate a separate router
along the line?

I don't know. I don't know what that product does or it's capabilities. If
you get a separate router, then you'll need a modem. There are also
modem/router combos.

I will read the following 2 links, but I can tell you from experience that
"common sense" is the very target of the malevolents: they found a way
around that a long time ago. call me a conspiratorial fanatic, but I
believe the government does nothing about this, for the same reason they
do nothing about identity theft: they benefit from it!

Rock, many thanks!

let me ask you for one more piece of information. do you know of a
vis-a-vis community, or a colleague, in new york city?

You're welcome. No I don't, sorry.

 

[Anthony Marsh]

Vista comes with a firewall. OneCare also comes with it's own version
of a firewall with different capabilities. If using OneCare use that
firewall. Only one firewall should be active at a time. I believe
OneCare turns of the built in firewall but I'm not sure about that.

When I try to turn on the Windows Firewall it says:

Windows Firewall is helping to protect your computer.

and

Windows Firewall can help prevent hackers or malicious software from
gaining access to your computer through the Internet or a network.

Then when I turn on the Live OneCare Firewall the Security Center says:

Windows Firewall and Windows Live OneCare Firewall both report that they
are turned on.
Note: Two or more firewalls running at the same time can conflict with
each other.

Then when I go to turn off the Windows Firewall it says:
OFF (not recommended)
Avoid using this setting. Turning off Windows Firewall will make this
computer more vulnerable to hackers or malicious software.


So my question is why the conflicting advice and statements?
Is one firewall really turning off the other or is it some malicious
program like an exploit? If I turn off Windows Firewall, do I lose that
ability to block all incoming connections?
When I run the Stealth test program at GRC.COM it reports total stealth
and no responsive ports.
Why should I trust Live OneCare over Windows Firewall if it does not
offer the same options? Why should I participate in Microsoft's plan to
leave my system more vulnerable to hackers?

For questions about OneCare it's best to post to one of the specific
forums for it.
http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/default.aspx?ForumGroupID=28&SiteID=2

No. Maybe some of us do not want to join some Microsoft forum and
register and give out information to Microsoft and the government.

They are apples and oranges. The firewall doesn't detect malware, it

Windows Firewall says it helps prevent hackers or malicious software
from gaining access to your computer through the Internet or a network.

monitors connections from the internt to your system. Defender is an
anti-spyware app, that is active in memory. It does not deal with viral
malware so an AV program is still needed. OneCare has it's own version
of Defender.

I use NOD 32 and I am still confused about both programs running their
anti-virus scans.

Yes you need to install an anti-virus. Vista does not have one. I
recommend either Avast (free), or NOD32 (paid). Some folks also like
AVG (free).

For anti-spyware, you should have a combination of programs, with one
active in memory. Defender is fine for this. Use the others to do an
occasional scan. The ones I suggest are Ad-Aware SE Personal, Spybot
S&D, and Spyware Blaster (this is not a scanner, but is helpful to stop
malware from getting installed).

Do not use a registry cleaner. There is no need for it. Any issues
with the registry should be handled with knowledge and direct editing of
the particular setting. I know OneCare has a registry cleaner, but I
would recommend agains using any registry cleaner. They cause more
problems than they fixx.

Disk cleanup is just the process of deleting temp files and other files
that have accumulated over time, but are not needed. Vista has a
cleanup feature. Double click on Computer, right click on a drive,
choose properties then Disk Cleanup. OneCare has a cleanup function as
well. A 3rd party app that's good for removing a variety of temp files
is CCleaner. I would recommned, though, not to use the registry cleaning
features in this program.

If OneCare is removed the widows firewall will run just fine.


You mean security packages such as those from Symantec, McAfee, etc.
They come with a firewall, AV, anti-spyware and a host of other
features. Yes, I agree, these tend to be resource heavy, and can be
problematic. I recommend not using any of the large security suites.
There is no need for a 3rd party firewall. Vista's firewall or the one
in OneCare is fine.

Which is better? Vista's firewall or OneCare? And do they do exactly the
same thing equally well?

 

[Victek]

When I try to turn on the Windows Firewall it says:

Windows Firewall is helping to protect your computer.

and

Windows Firewall can help prevent hackers or malicious software from
gaining access to your computer through the Internet or a network.

Then when I turn on the Live OneCare Firewall the Security Center says:

Windows Firewall and Windows Live OneCare Firewall both report that they
are turned on.
Note: Two or more firewalls running at the same time can conflict with
each other.

Then when I go to turn off the Windows Firewall it says:
OFF (not recommended)
Avoid using this setting. Turning off Windows Firewall will make this
computer more vulnerable to hackers or malicious software.

So my question is why the conflicting advice and statements?
Is one firewall really turning off the other or is it some malicious
program like an exploit? If I turn off Windows Firewall, do I lose that
ability to block all incoming connections?
When I run the Stealth test program at GRC.COM it reports total stealth
and no responsive ports.
Why should I trust Live OneCare over Windows Firewall if it does not offer
the same options? Why should I participate in Microsoft's plan to leave my
system more vulnerable to hackers?

Which is better? Vista's firewall or OneCare? And do they do exactly the
same thing equally well?

It should make more sense if you look in the Control Panel/Security Center.
The Security Center should be aware of the OneCare Firewall and show that
the system is protected when the OneCare Firewall is On and the Windows
Firewall is Off. The Windows Firewall is not aware of other firewalls on
the system. It only knows if it is On or Off and it complains when you turn
it off. It would be nice if it said something like "only turn me off if you
have another firewall active" or "check the Security Center" or something
else intelligent, but it doesn't.

As to which firewall is better, I don't know. You could try the ShieldsUp
test with each one and compare the results. You can also look at how easy
it is to configure them, manage outbound connections, etc. Hope this helps.

 

[Anthony Marsh]

It should make more sense if you look in the Control Panel/Security
Center. The Security Center should be aware of the OneCare Firewall and
show that the system is protected when the OneCare Firewall is On and
the Windows Firewall is Off. The Windows Firewall is not aware of other
firewalls on the system. It only knows if it is On or Off and it
complains when you turn it off. It would be nice if it said something
like "only turn me off if you have another firewall active" or "check
the Security Center" or something else intelligent, but it doesn't.

As to which firewall is better, I don't know. You could try the
ShieldsUp test with each one and compare the results. You can also look
at how easy it is to configure them, manage outbound connections, etc.
Hope this helps.

Thanks. I just tried turning off the Windows Firewall and then ran the
Shields Up program and it reported total stealth on all ports. So it may
work ok with only the Live OneCare firewall. Has anyone heard when the
Live OneCare 2.0 will be full released?
My computer came installed with NOD32 unbeknownst to me and so far it
seems to catch most things, but I've found that enabling Javascript
allowed in exploit Trojans such as Iframe.
I still suspect that some malware can turn off the firewall. I wish
there were some gadget that would warn me when the firewall has been
turned off. Maybe a flashing Star Trek type of thing saying, "Shields
are down."
I don't see any colored icon on my system tray to remind me of the
Defender status or Firewall status.

 

[Victek]

It should make more sense if you look in the Control Panel/Security

Thanks. I just tried turning off the Windows Firewall and then ran the
Shields Up program and it reported total stealth on all ports. So it may
work ok with only the Live OneCare firewall. Has anyone heard when the
Live OneCare 2.0 will be full released?
My computer came installed with NOD32 unbeknownst to me and so far it
seems to catch most things, but I've found that enabling Javascript
allowed in exploit Trojans such as Iframe.
I still suspect that some malware can turn off the firewall. I wish there
were some gadget that would warn me when the firewall has been turned off.
Maybe a flashing Star Trek type of thing saying, "Shields are down."
I don't see any colored icon on my system tray to remind me of the
Defender status or Firewall status.

Everything I've heard about NOD32 has been good. You could try adding
Comodo BoClean Anti-Malware to your real-time security apps. It complements
antivirus and antispyware, and is free for personal use.

www.comodo.com

 

[Guest]

Windows Live One care comes with its own firewall and will disable your
Windows firewall. You are still protected, but with a better firewall.

If your firewall is turned off you will receive a security alert in your
taskbar area, near the clock. You can then restart your firewall and try to
determine why is shut down.

Have a nice day.

C.B.