Window is stealing my HD size

[Arno Wagner]

I'm sure nobody cheated me (I don't hold the same opinion as some) I'm
not complaining..... much. The situation just needs revising to avoid
consumer confusion. In the meantime I look forward to selling bananas
in units of 0.98

Well, from some angle this is what is happening.

Arno

 

[J. Clarke]

<snip>

Who do you suppose is one of the biggest buyers of disk drives?

And of course if no drives are marked in "the proper SI units" the
government will simply cease to use computers, just as they ceased to use
gasoline because it is not sold in "the proper SI units" and computer
monitors because they are not sized in "the proper SI units" and ceased to
drive because the street signs are not marked in "the proper SI units" and
quit monitoring traffic speeds because the monitoring devices are not
calibrated in "the proper SI units" and ceased to fly because the
altimeters and airspeed indicators are not marked in "the proper SI units".

 

[gerhard564]

Just got a Maxtor Onetouch III 500Gb

Probably 500 GB (byte, not bit).

Windows reports 465GB capacity (500,105,216,000 bytes), NTFS.

That could be spelled as 465 GiB (prefix G: 10^9, prefix Gi: 2^30).
Windows
is using a somewhat misleading terminology here -- see
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html (so much for the
relevance of
this

PartitionMagic reports 476,937.5Mb (4K cluster size), NTFS.

Probably it reports 476937 MB, but that would be better spelled 476937
MiB
(prefix M: 10^6, prefix Mi: 2^20 -- same misleading terminology, see
the
same link above...).

Calculate the numbers -- using the correct prefixes, it all matches.

It's difficult to understand why this confusion is continuing for such
a
long time. At least /some/ people seem to have fun with it

Gerhard

 

[Arno Wagner]

CJT wrote:

And of course if no drives are marked in "the proper SI units" the
government will simply cease to use computers, just as they ceased
to use gasoline because it is not sold in "the proper SI units" and
computer monitors because they are not sized in "the proper SI
units" and ceased to drive because the street signs are not marked
in "the proper SI units" and quit monitoring traffic speeds because
the monitoring devices are not calibrated in "the proper SI units"
and ceased to fly because the altimeters and airspeed indicators are
not marked in "the proper SI units".

That is utter BS, completely missing the point. And I think you know
it. The fact is that if there is a 'k' before th unit, you have every
right to expect it to be an SI prefix and _nothing_ else, unless it is
clearly marked as being something different. There are laws and
treaties about that. Local old units may or may not be allowed, but if
it looks like SI, then it has to be SI. Period.

Arno

 

[Arno Wagner]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

Probably 500 GB (byte, not bit).

That could be spelled as 465 GiB (prefix G: 10^9, prefix Gi: 2^30).
Windows
is using a somewhat misleading terminology here -- see
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html (so much for the
relevance of
this

Probably it reports 476937 MB, but that would be better spelled 476937
MiB
(prefix M: 10^6, prefix Mi: 2^20 -- same misleading terminology, see
the
same link above...).

Calculate the numbers -- using the correct prefixes, it all matches.

It's difficult to understand why this confusion is continuing for
such a long time. At least /some/ people seem to have fun with it

Simple: People do not like to admit they are wrong. And many do not
understand what the SI is and why it is important. If a HDD vendor
advertises 500GB and then gives you 450'000'000'000 Bytes, you can
return the product and they likely face a stiff fine. They cannot
claim that "their G" means 900M SI. The RAM vendors get away with
it first because it is not a measurement unit in their case, but
a "size class" and second because they give you more than advertised.

Arno

 

[dew]

That is utter BS, completely missing the point. And I think you know
it. The fact is that if there is a 'k' before th unit, you have every
right to expect it to be an SI prefix and _nothing_ else, unless it is
clearly marked as being something different. There are laws and
treaties about that. Local old units may or may not be allowed, but if
it looks like SI, then it has to be SI. Period.

Thats overstating it, most obviously with ram.

 

[J. Clarke]

That is utter BS, completely missing the point. And I think you know
it. The fact is that if there is a 'k' before th unit, you have every
right to expect it to be an SI prefix and _nothing_ else, unless it is
clearly marked as being something different. There are laws and
treaties about that. Local old units may or may not be allowed, but if
it looks like SI, then it has to be SI. Period.

Fine, find me the statute or treaty that requires this. What I _know_ is
that when you Europeans start pontificating about American law I don't know
whether to laugh or cry.

 

[gerhard564]

And of course if no drives are marked in "the proper SI units" the
government will simply cease to use computers, ...

Now, for some reason, (most? all?) drives /are/ marked in SI units. It
seems the drive manufacturers are a bit more, hm, money-smart than some
others and know how to sell their stuff to big customers

I believe you when you become a major supplier of harddisks to the US
federal government and don't mark them in SI units. Until then...

... just as they ceased to use gasoline because it is not sold in "the
proper SI units" and computer monitors because they are not sized in
"the proper SI units" and ceased to drive because the street signs are
not marked in "the proper SI units" and quit monitoring traffic speeds
because the monitoring devices are not calibrated in "the proper SI
units" and ceased to fly because the altimeters and airspeed indicators
are not marked in "the proper SI units".

Maybe not, but I didn't remember that the original question touched any
of these. The question was about whether there is a law that
establishes which units are legal -- and, you can jump up or down as
much as you want, there is a law in the USA (and in most other
countries) that does just this. It also provides for exceptions (which
one can easily establish by reading it), but that has nothing to do
with the question whether the law exists.

Gerhard

 

[gerhard564]

Fine, find me the statute or treaty that requires this.

Already found. You read?

Try selling a disk (or a memory, since that has been brought up) with
fewer bytes than stated, interpreting the given size (e.g. 500 GB or
500 GiB) in SI units. Then you see the power of the law

What I _know_ is that when you Europeans start
pontificating about American law I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Who's "you Europeans"? And I know that it's really much more sad than
funny when citizens of any country (and that includes the USA) don't
know about their law.

Gerhard

 

[J. Clarke]

Already found. You read?

Yes, I read absolutely nothing about any requirement that goods sold in the
Unites States be labelled in any particular fashion.

That's one of the reasons I'm laughing, you seem to think that the
government being required to do something places a constraint on entities
other than the government. It may work that way wherever you are but it
does not work that way here.

Try selling a disk (or a memory, since that has been brought up) with
fewer bytes than stated, interpreting the given size (e.g. 500 GB or
500 GiB) in SI units. Then you see the power of the law

What law? You still haven't shown me a law that has anything whatsoever to
do with the labelling of goods.

Who's "you Europeans"? And I know that it's really much more sad than
funny when citizens of any country (and that includes the USA) don't
know about their law.

I see. So you assert that there is a law and that I am ignorant because I
am unaware of it, but you still cannot cite such a law, instead referring
to another statute that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the
labelling of goods.

Looks like you're resorting to name calling when you can't back up your
argument with facts.

 

[J. Clarke]

Now, for some reason, (most? all?) drives /are/ marked in SI units. It
seems the drive manufacturers are a bit more, hm, money-smart than some
others and know how to sell their stuff to big customers

I believe you when you become a major supplier of harddisks to the US
federal government and don't mark them in SI units. Until then...

Now you are confusing an action which a company takes voluntarily for the
purpose of increasing sales with one that is mandated by law.

Maybe not, but I didn't remember that the original question touched any
of these. The question was about whether there is a law that
establishes which units are legal -- and, you can jump up or down as
much as you want, there is a law in the USA (and in most other
countries) that does just this.

You keep asserting this. Repetition of assertions does not make them so.
If there is such a law, show it to me.

It also provides for exceptions (which
one can easily establish by reading it), but that has nothing to do
with the question whether the law exists.

Again, show me the law. And not the one about mom, apple pie, and the
Federal government.

 

[Gerhard Fiedler]

Again, show me the law.

I did already.

And not the one about mom, apple pie, and the Federal government.

Well... it's a law that defines "giga", short "G". It doesn't require you
to sell harddisks by the gigabyte -- you're free to sell them by the pound
or by the inch, if you should be so inclined. But /if/ you sell them by the
gigabyte, this law defines what the "giga" in "gigabyte" means. You can't
just say "my 'giga' is 8374" and sell disks based on your "personal"
gigabyte. (BTW, the same law governs what an inch and a pound is. Both
defined in SI standards. You're not free to pick your inches and pounds,
either.)

Same goes for apple pie, obviously. Not sure about your mom... (what has
she to do with the issue?)

Gerhard

 

[Arno Wagner]

Thats overstating it, most obviously with ram.

As I said, RAM is not measured. It has size-classes.

Arno

 

[Arno Wagner]

Arno Wagner wrote:

Fine, find me the statute or treaty that requires this.

Well, you can dig in your laws yourself. Here it is the "Bundesgesetz
vom 9. Juni 1977 ueber das Messwesen".

What I _know_ is that when you Europeans start pontificating about
American law I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Your choice. But looking at some of US (I assume) laws, I would
advise you to cry.

Arno

 

[Arno Wagner]

J. Clarke wrote:

Now, for some reason, (most? all?) drives /are/ marked in SI units. It
seems the drive manufacturers are a bit more, hm, money-smart than some
others and know how to sell their stuff to big customers

I believe you when you become a major supplier of harddisks to the US
federal government and don't mark them in SI units. Until then...

Quite frankly, I believe that the US is overimagineing its importance
here. Disks are market in SI units, because the international market
demands it. They could not be sold in most of Europe and Asia
otherwise.

Other example: Have you ever noticed that new drive types
(3.5" floppies, CDROM) usually need M3 (metric, 3mm) screws?
The reason is that these were done for international
compatibility from the beginning.

Arno

 

[Arno Wagner]

J. Clarke wrote:

I did already.

Well... it's a law that defines "giga", short "G". It doesn't require you
to sell harddisks by the gigabyte -- you're free to sell them by the pound
or by the inch, if you should be so inclined.

Actually, you are not. At least not if you are a business. The
lagally required unit for storage space is the byte or the bit,
everything else will get you fined. It is also quite clear that
for goods that have a size, weight, volume or whatever as primary
characteristic, that you need to state this in SI on the goods
or their packaging. Since it only applies to businesses, most
people are ignorant about this.

You can direct your questions for your countrie's exact
lagal base here:

http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/mpo_home.htm

Arno

 

[dew]

As I said, RAM is not measured.

You were just plain wrong on that.

It has size-classes.

Irrelevant to the unit used when stating the size.

 

[dew]

Actually, you are not.

Actually, you are.

At least not if you are a business.

You're welcome to sell them by the pound if you want to.

The lagally required unit for storage space is the
byte or the bit, everything else will get you fined.

Wrong with the US and most other countrys, you're
welcome to sell them by the pound if you like.

It is also quite clear that for goods that have a size, weight,
volume or whatever as primary characteristic, that you need
to state this in SI on the goods or their packaging.

Wrong again. You dont have to specify the size of
hard drives if you dont want to. You're welcome to
sell them as a collection of drives of various unspecified
sizes if you want to in virtually every country.

And in the US you dont even have to use SI units if you
dont want to either, just so long as you accurately state
what the buyer is getting if you specify that at all.

You are for example welcome to specify a pallet
of mixed drives if you want to in most countrys.

Since it only applies to businesses,
most people are ignorant about this.

Pity its just plain wrong even for businesses.

You can direct your questions for your countrie's exact lagal base here:

http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/mpo_home.htm

Not relevant to what is legally mandated.

 

[dew]

Quite frankly, I believe that the US is overimagineing its importance here.
Disks are market in SI units, because the international market demands it.

How odd that they didnt used to be.

They could not be sold in most of Europe and Asia otherwise.

Wrong again. They are welcome to specify the total number
of bytes and not use SI prefixes at all if they choose not to.

And with memory they dont use the SI prefixes anyway.

Other example: Have you ever noticed that new drive types
(3.5" floppies, CDROM) usually need M3 (metric, 3mm) screws?
The reason is that these were done for international
compatibility from the beginning.

Nope, the reason is because it was the most common fine
thread screw available. A fine thread screw was used
because they screw into sheet metal with those drives.

And its not the most recent either, M3 has always been used
for screws into sheet metal when a self tapper isnt being used.

 

[Alexander Grigoriev]

Your BIOS doesn't support disks over 128GB (137000000000 bytes).