why backup?

R

Rick Merrill

Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Rick said:
Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive.


How does that make a backup "worthless?" That's exactly what a backup
is for: to preserve your data from loss and restore it to the new hard
drive or computer.

You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?


True enough, as far as applications go, but that's got nothing to do
with a data back up.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot
 
P

peter

Its both true and false
True in the sense that you will need the program that created the backup in
order to restore the backup as well as the programs that
you were using for your work. Which is of course why a lot of persons in
this help group recommend a separate purchased backup program instead of
the build in XP/Vista one.
False in the sense that without a backup you have lost all of your personal
files/work ....everything gone with not a snowballs chance in hell of
getting it back.

peter
 
D

Daave

Rick said:
Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you
cannot just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You
have to have all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry
correct. - true or false?

Both statements are false (with a proviso).

Here is a scenario to consider:

You regularly image the hard drive of your laptop, using Acronis True
Image. These image archives exist on an external hard drive.

You travel, bringing your laptop, which eventually gets stolen.

You purchase a new replacement laptop (hopefully with money from the
insurance company). You place the Acronis boot disk in the CD-ROM tray
and boot off it (making sure your external hard drive is connected to
this new laptop).

You restore the archive(s).

Then simply reboot the PC (in the usual way, off the hard drive, of
course).

If the laptops are identical, there is no need to use an XP installation
CD.

If the laptops are not identical (here;s the proviso), then, yes, you
would need to use the XP installation CD to run a Repair Install "to
make the registry correct." However, I believe there are now programs
(perhaps the latest version of Acronis? Someone else will need to chime
in.) that will enable you to restore the image without needing to run a
Repair Install. If I can found out which programs these are, I will
include their names in a future post.
 
D

Daave

Daave said:
Both statements are false (with a proviso).

Here is a scenario to consider:

You regularly image the hard drive of your laptop, using Acronis True
Image. These image archives exist on an external hard drive.

You travel, bringing your laptop, which eventually gets stolen.

You purchase a new replacement laptop (hopefully with money from the
insurance company). You place the Acronis boot disk in the CD-ROM tray
and boot off it (making sure your external hard drive is connected to
this new laptop).

You restore the archive(s).

Then simply reboot the PC (in the usual way, off the hard drive, of
course).

If the laptops are identical, there is no need to use an XP
installation CD.

If the laptops are not identical (here;s the proviso), then, yes, you
would need to use the XP installation CD to run a Repair Install "to
make the registry correct." However, I believe there are now programs
(perhaps the latest version of Acronis? Someone else will need to
chime in.) that will enable you to restore the image without needing
to run a Repair Install. If I can found out which programs these are,
I will include their names in a future post.

Here is one:

Paragon Drive Backup 9.0 Personal

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/db-personal/

It has a useful feature called Adaptive Restore, which apparently
doesn't need an XP installation CD.
 
V

VanguardLH

Rick said:
Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?

Get a better backup program, either one that includes the system files
during file-level backup operations or one that saves partition images
(which can be full or incremental and do NOT need to be sector-level
images).

If your backup solution is weak, look at using ERUNT to save a backup of
the registry.
 
J

JS

Rick Merrill said:
Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?

Sometimes a restore will not work at all on a new PC
and you will need to do a "Clean Install" and then you can
at least recover your data files from the image backup.

Sometimes a restore will at least allow you to boot the
new PC and then you must perform a "Repair Install" and
then install most or at least some of the drivers.

And sometimes you can do a restore and everything works just fine.
Usually the motherboards or PC must be the same model and revision
level.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?


False.

Assuming that you have the program that created the backup, you can
restore the backup on any computer that can run that program.

However note that I'm talking about backups of data. Backups of
programs *are* largely worthless. However it's not an issue of making
the registry correct, but simply an issue of almost all programs
having many references within \Windows, in the registry and elsewhere.

If you don't have the computer they were installed on with the same
installation of Windows, backups of almost all programs are worthless.
There is a occasional small program that is complete by itself with
all those references within \Windows, but very few.
 
A

Anthony Buckland

Ken Blake said:
False.

Assuming that you have the program that created the backup, you can
restore the backup on any computer that can run that program.

However note that I'm talking about backups of data. Backups of
programs *are* largely worthless. However it's not an issue of making
the registry correct, but simply an issue of almost all programs
having many references within \Windows, in the registry and elsewhere.
...

This would be my strategy. Use an imaging program
such as Acronis True Image. Make sure you burn a
backup CD so you can run TI on any computer with
a system that recognizes it. Adopt a long-term stategy,
as I have, of keeping all software you download on-line in a
folder in My Documents.

Try to restore the image in toto. If it works, or works
after a repair install of the operating system, great.

Otherwise, install your operating system (you _did_
keep the original CD or DVD for that in a safe place,
right?). Instead of restoring the whole image, restore
My Documents from your backup (if you didn't know
TI can do that, now you do).

Using either their disks, or the downloaded source
you kept in My Documents, which you just restored,
install all your applications.

All done, but for niggling, frustrating little details
which may make you keep the bourbon bottle on
your desk for a while. :)

(Such as reconstructing your Desktop just the
way you like it.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, backups don't work too well if the thief
takes, or the fire or earthquake destroys, your backup
media, and you _didn't_have_an_offsite_backup_as
_well_. The removable USB-driven drives I use now
are no bigger than cigarette cases used to be when
there were still people who thought it smart and
fashionable to carry cigarette cases, and can be
stored in small places.
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Rick said:
Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you
cannot just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You
have to have all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry
correct. - true or false?

Backups are not normally for the system files - but for *your* files.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

This would be my strategy. Use an imaging program
such as Acronis True Image. Make sure you burn a
backup CD so you can run TI on any computer with
a system that recognizes it. Adopt a long-term stategy,
as I have, of keeping all software you download on-line in a
folder in My Documents.


That's fine, and I'm by no means against doing that. However, backup
strategy is really a very different issue from what the OP's question
was about.
 
P

philo

Rick said:
Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?



The OS is expendable

you can always re-load it or get a new computer


what's important is your data.


So it should ideally be backed up to an external drive or two...
one of which is kept separate from your computer...

and no backup program is needed if you just copy the data over directly


If you keep it simple your data can be retrieved from most any other
machine...even a Mac or Linux machine...
and no special software would be required
 
A

Anthony Buckland

Ken Blake said:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 13:57:41 -0700, "Anthony Buckland"



That's fine, and I'm by no means against doing that. However, backup
strategy is really a very different issue from what the OP's question
was about.
...

OK. So, why backup? Because one way or another, you are
likely in the long term to be screwed, nailed and riveted if you
don't. The effort to make backups, once and regularly, is dwarfed
by the cost, once doom occurs, of not having backed up.
The cost of backing up a couple of hundres gigabytes, including
hardware, software and learning time, could be nothing compared
to the cost of losing a half-completed novel. One that could be
sold, that is. :)

Or, on a more mundane note, the cost of losing the financial data
required for your startup's first tax return.

Remember the last tornado disaster on your favorite channel's
news? Again and again, people lament losing the family's
photos, or celebrate having saved them from the splintered
lumber that used to be their home. Some data is worth a
great deal, perhaps an unlimited deal, of saving.

Backups is how, for people who don't live in a nuclear-war
shelter, you save such data. One document, of a few
hundred kilobytes, can make saving those couple of hundred
gigs worthwhile.
 
L

Leythos

Backups are worthless if your computer is stolen/lost because you cannot
just restore the backup to a new computer's disk drive. You have to have
all the !@#$ installation disks to make the registry correct. - true or
false?

False, backups are not actually for the OS, unless you have the same
computer, they are for all of the DATA you have on the computer - like
your Itunes, Documents, Pictures, and all the other things you have.
 
R

Rick Merrill

Leythos said:
False, backups are not actually for the OS, unless you have the same
computer, they are for all of the DATA you have on the computer - like
your Itunes, Documents, Pictures, and all the other things you have.

With all the downloaded programs and "updates" a data only solution is
not very interesting nor useful for migrating.

There is a new solution that obsolesces what we used to know. Here's
what I have found: a full system backup including OS can be "run" on a
virtual OS (or even on a separate bootable drive) under another
operating system on another computer. e.g. WinXP under Win7.
 
L

Leythos

With all the downloaded programs and "updates" a data only solution is
not very interesting nor useful for migrating.

There is a new solution that obsolesces what we used to know. Here's
what I have found: a full system backup including OS can be "run" on a
virtual OS (or even on a separate bootable drive) under another
operating system on another computer. e.g. WinXP under Win7.

And we're in a XP group, so we're talking about Workstations or home
computers, so, the importance of a DATA backup, to save users files, is
very important.

I've never actually run into a home user that did backups before I met
them, and the reason I met most of them was a failure/corruption that
toasted their data/OS and they lost everything because they didn't know
how to recover anything and that didn't have a backup.

There have been FEW times that the OS/System State backup has saved
anyone on a Workstation, but, having a backup of the Profile and User
files is always a good thing - if you use Outlook and don't save your
profile folders during backup you may not recover your PST file....

Programs and OS can be reloaded, but you can't recover YOUR data if you
don't have a backup and the drive is dead.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

OK. So, why backup? Because one way or another, you are
likely in the long term to be screwed, nailed and riveted if you
don't. The effort to make backups, once and regularly, is dwarfed
by the cost, once doom occurs, of not having backed up.
The cost of backing up a couple of hundres gigabytes, including
hardware, software and learning time, could be nothing compared
to the cost of losing a half-completed novel. One that could be
sold, that is. :)


I agree completely. You (and others here) might like to read this
article I've written on the subject:
http://www.computorcompanion.com/LPMArticle.asp?ID=314
 
A

Anteaus

There is a lot of truth in what the OP says.

Business users see the PC as a tool to do work with.

If you drill fails, you get another drill. You don't have to buy a complete
new set of bits, or have the house rewired to make the new drill work.
Neither do you have to redrill all of the holes you've already drilled. That
is because the drill is a self-contained unit with standard I/O interfaces
(110/240vac, handgrip, chuck) the replacement of which do not adversely
impact on other tools or services.

Programmers, OTOH, see 'tight integration' as an objective in PC software
design, building-in numerous interconnections between internal modules. Most
of which are never used, but which tie-down the software in such a way as to
make it non-portable. This makes PC upgrades and backup-recovery an
unnecessarily traumatic process.

Different makes of drill contain very different motor designs, but the user
need not be concerned about this. This is because the drill's external
interfaces are standardised, and no outside connection bypasses those
interfaces.

The job of an OS should be to interface with varying hardware, providing a
standardised interface that applications can make calls to. If it confined
itself to that proper role, then we would not have these problems.
 
T

Twayne

Anteaus said:
There is a lot of truth in what the OP says.

What in the OP's words was it? Since you're made no reference to, now
use of, the OP's query, there is nothing to compare that sentence about.
Business users see the PC as a tool to do work with.

If you drill fails, you get another drill. You don't have to buy a
complete new set of bits, or have the house rewired to make the new
drill work. Neither do you have to redrill all of the holes you've
already drilled. That is because the drill is a self-contained unit
with standard I/O interfaces (110/240vac, handgrip, chuck) the
replacement of which do not adversely impact on other tools or
services.

But drills do not have new parts sent to them periodically, which by
their nature necessitates keeping a record of what was sent, either.
Nor does a drill run another drill, peripheral or machine. A drill only
makes holes or tightens/untightens screws. But a PC does much more,
works with many perhipherals, drives them, starts them, stops them,
prints them, saves them, replies to them, etc etc etc. If you're going
to attempt to use analogies, at least pick something that relates.
Jeez.
Programmers, OTOH, see 'tight integration' as an objective in PC
software design, building-in numerous interconnections between
internal modules.

That is patently untrue. You have absolutely no concept of the
methodology of code developtment and should leave this subject alone.
The preference for interconnections as you call them is by marketing and
users; the ones doing the code (it's often several different people) are
simply following the requirements of a project's descriptions and
specifications.

Most of which are never used, but which tie-down
the software in such a way as to make it non-portable.

That would have nothing to do with portability. Portability of/for
what?? Do you even know what you said there?

This makes PC
upgrades and backup-recovery an unnecessarily traumatic process.

Nonsense. It has become so easy and so common place these days that
even non-ignorant school children can do it and others never even know
it's happening because it's reliable and automated. The most work with
a good backup strategy is put in for making periodic checks to insure
that the backups ran and that no error messages are waiting for action.
These days there are seldom any errors even. All that's needed is RTFM
and a moderate intelligence for the one implementing same. Other than
housekeeping there is nothing i have to do about/with my backup ware;
it's all automated. Once a month I make a set of DVDs for offsite
backup storage and that's all there is to do.
Different makes of drill contain very different motor designs, but

Actually, drill motors are very, very similar these days whether it's a
line or battery operated drill. You only start to see differences when
you move into the more expensive and/or commercial quality drills most
people consider too expensive to bother with. Yet, after buying two of
the cheapies you've spent more than you would have on the commercial
product and it's going to keep on running for a long time yet.
the user need not be concerned about this. This is because the
drill's external interfaces are standardised, and no outside
connection bypasses those interfaces.

Actually, there are mor differences in "interfaces" than there are
innards. Constant speed, variable speed, reversible, clutched,
slip-ringed, 3/8" max or 1/4" max or 1/2" max drill shanks, speeds from
1 to 500 or 1500 or 2500 or 150 to 2500., and several other combinations
amongst the different manufacturer's. That is THE place they can do
something they hope will distinguish their drills from the competition,
so the interfaces DO vary; a lot, from mfr to mfr.
The job of an OS should be to interface with varying hardware,
providing a standardised interface that applications can make calls
to. If it confined itself to that proper role, then we would not have
these problems.

You've chosen a very poor analogy.
Sort of true, but FALSE if one has followed the standard strategies for
backing up machines and has copies of backups on an unplugged, stored
out of sight external drive, plus another set periodically stored
off-site. If my computer were stolen or lost today, I would simply pull
my backups out of my firesafe, or go to a relative's with whom I swap
DVD sets of backups periodically, and then restore that to my new
computer. The odds of my own home and my offsite storage location both
being bomed to rubble are extremely low; so low that if that happens I'm
not going to be much worried about my backups! As long as they're
stored offsite I can take my time to put my life back together before
worrying about a restoration.
The most effective part of ANY backup strategy is having a backup
stored offsite, far away from the computer it's for, in addition to
being on say an external disk drive.

You
The very worst that could happen would be having to restore to a
different machine, in which case the registry would be no good, that's
right. But there are two possibly easy solutions:
-- Do the restore. Run a Repair Install.
or
-- Do a bare steel restore. Then it doesn't care what the hardware is;
it'll build its own registry.

In both cases, NO, you don't need the install disks, but you MIGHT need
the keycodes. And your EFS exports if you encrypt. And, in the case of
a pirated OS, here's where you get caught<g>. Or some do anyway, not
necessarily "you" in the singular sense.

Let's keep it real, folks. Do the research, then do the work. Then
relax, knowing you're set for at least 99% of the problems you could
encounter. Such as forgetting to verify the data set you stored off
line<g>. BTW, copies of your original discs should be part of a good
backup strategy, too.

HTH,

Twayne`
 

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