which ink is likely to run out first?

[Arthur Entlich]

Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.

To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The
surface under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the
same material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to lock
the ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it tends to be
set in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively waterproof.
However, since the surface if full of holes, energized ink molecules
(from UV light, or other chemical sources) can escape through those
holes, and do (thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled molecules.
Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals all are these
types of materials. When the ink hits these materials the liquid makes
the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles and makes space,
where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries, and locks the
colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer.
Even when dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged
mechanically , and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and
fingerprints may damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting some
that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed image)
and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in the water
the ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a finger and
touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets quite sticky.
If so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Just to be clear, when you say:

For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands

that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.

Are those just Canon printer designated dye inks (OEM and 3rd party), or
also Epson, Lexmark, HP designated inks, etc?


Art

 

[Mary]

Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.

Thank you for the information Art. You obviously know a lot about it, but it
seems complicated to me.

Mary

 

[Mary]

There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.

Art,
I checked the ink cartridge. I don't see any address there. Just a phone
number which is Staples Customer service where you order Staples items from
the catalog.On the cartridge box it says The Business Depot in Markham,
Ontario. (probably old boxes). As you probably know, Staples bought them
out. On the other side of the box it says "made in Germany, with components
from France, Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wonder why it needs to
involve 4 countries just for cartridge ink. On the same side it also says
"Business Depot" and "Staples/Business Depot" brand cartridges are not
affiliated with Canon." and " Canon BCI and BJC are registered trade marks
of Canon Kabushiki. Canon has not sponsored or approved this
Staples/Business Depot cartridge. Model numbers of Canon are identified for
compatibility purposes only". The usual legal stuff I guess.
I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make a
difference how fade resistant photos will be
rather than the type of ink?

Thanks.

Mary

 

[Bob Headrick]

I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make
a
difference how fade resistant photos will be rather than the type of ink?

Yes, both the paper and ink make a large difference in the fade resistance.
See http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf and
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf for
examples of variations or 50x in some cases with different papers.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Bob Headrick]

Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the
column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean.

The table shows the number of years for a photo printed with a particular
printer and paper combination to show "years before noticable fading and/or
changes in color balance occur" for photos stored under glass. As you can
see there is considerable difference depending on the paper used.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/WIR_IST_2007_03_HW.pdf is more recent
and shows even more dramatic results. [This is for 4x6 photo printers, but
the results should be similar with full size photo printers using the same
ink and paper combinations.]

The article mentions its
better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried Canon
semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I
have
been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has been
ok
for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to
last
for years.

The overall thickness of the paper does not have much effect on longevity.
The important factor is the formulation of the coating which varies widely
by manufacturer.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I was hoping to provide you and others with some background to better
place the information into context. Each paper technology has
advantages and disadvantages, depending upon what is more important for
the print out. Perhaps the explanations can provide a guide to
determine which technology is better for your specific needs.

Microporous are quick drying, often waterproof, somewhat more durable
than most swellable polymer. Swellable Polymer are slower drying and a
bit more vulnerable to damage, not waterproof but allow for a longer
fade resistance.

Swellable polymer can't be used with pigment inks, in fact some
Swellable polymer paper won't produce good results with certain dye inks
either, you have to test.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.

Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.

On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.

Art

 

[Mary]

ink?

Yes, both the paper and ink make a large difference in the fade resistance.
See http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf and
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_FadeFactor_Nov_2002.pdf for
examples of variations or 50x in some cases with different papers.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean. The article mentions its
better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried Canon
semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I have
been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has been ok
for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to last
for years. For indoor photos with flash its been ok too, but with some of
them, I don't want them to fade for a long time, so mostly they are the ones
I am concerned about. Also, I guess the thickness of the photo paper is
important.

Mary

 

[Mary]

Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.

Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.

On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.

My main concern is the photos I take indoors mostly with flash of relatives
at Christmas and other times of the year. I want them to last for many years
and hope they don't fade for many years. I've been using Kodak double sided
semi gloss which seems to be ok (I don't like high gloss photos very much).
Its only 7 ml thick though. Does that make a difference with fading or how
long the photos will still look the same as when they were first printed?
Thanks.

Mary

 

[Mary]

Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.

Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.

On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.

I would have to try different photo papers I guess, but I am wondering if
the photo paper I already use mostly of the time
(Kodakm double sided, semi gloss, 7 ml) would last well and be fade
resistant. That photo paper is hard to find in stores near me.

Mary

 

[Mary]

Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the
column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean.

The table shows the number of years for a photo printed with a particular
printer and paper combination to show "years before noticable fading and/or
changes in color balance occur" for photos stored under glass. As you can
see there is considerable difference depending on the paper used.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/WIR_IST_2007_03_HW.pdf is more recent
and shows even more dramatic results. [This is for 4x6 photo printers, but
the results should be similar with full size photo printers using the same
ink and paper combinations.]

That graph is a bit easier to figure out but when I looked again at the link
you gave me yesterday, I noticed the "years" part at the right side, which I
didn't see at first glance. But the graph on the above link lists photo
paper brands, but both links have good information. My printer (Canon IP
4000) and the photo paper I often use (Kodak Picture Paper, semi gloss,
double sided 8 1/2X11" is not listed. I also sometimes have used Kodak
Anytime Picture Paper , soft gloss, and its not that bad either. I get Kodak
because it has soft gloss or semi gloss at reasonable price, though semi
gloss is getting harder to find where I am located (Toronto, Canada). Also,
most photo paper I see sold here in stores is glossy or high gloss and I
don't care much for it. I like semi gloss or soft gloss better. I admit I
don't want to pay $22.00 for just 10 or 15 sheets of photo paper.

The overall thickness of the paper does not have much effect on longevity.
The important factor is the formulation of the coating which varies widely
by manufacturer.

Well, I don't know much about coating. I would have to try different photo
papers in semi gloss or soft gloss.
Thank you for your help.

Mary

 

[Ron Baird]

Hi Art,

Yes, you are right, Kodak went to microporous papers about a year and half
ago or there abouts. The changed the back printing to coincide with the new
printer technology as well. There may be some paper out in the marketplace,
but Kodak no longer makes swellable inkjet paper as of 2006. If you find
some, it is it is sold under the brandname of Kodak Ultima photo paper. Also
there is some swellable paper under the Kodak Premium photo paper but it
will say made in the USA or canada and it doesn't have the new packaging.
Current papers use the newer Microporous technology.

Talk to you soon,

Ron Baird
Eastman Kodak Company

 

[Mary]

Hi Art,

Yes, you are right, Kodak went to microporous papers about a year and half
ago or there abouts. The changed the back printing to coincide with the new
printer technology as well. There may be some paper out in the marketplace,
but Kodak no longer makes swellable inkjet paper as of 2006. If you find
some, it is it is sold under the brandname of Kodak Ultima photo paper. Also
there is some swellable paper under the Kodak Premium photo paper but it
will say made in the USA or canada and it doesn't have the new packaging.
Current papers use the newer Microporous technology.

Hi Ron. Can I cut in here? If you have been following some of this thread, I
have been using Kodak "Picture Paper", double sided, soft gloss 8 1/2X11, 7
ml thickness, for a few years now. I use it mostly for printing indoor
photos of people with flash. I have a Canon printer IP4000 which I like. I
like the Kodak Picture paper quite well because I like semi or soft gloss,
rather than glossy. Its also reasonably priced compared to some other
brands. What do you think of it?
The only bad thing about it is, that photopaper is hard to find (I'm in
Toronto Canada). Staples used to carry it, but haven't stocked it for a
couple of years. Its only available from their catalog, but $15.00 for
delivery unless you buy $50.00 worth of stuff, so I won't go that route. I
found my present paper at a drug store which doesn't usually stock photo
paper.
I also occasionally use Kodak Anytime Picture Paper, soft gloss, when I can
find it.Its 6ml. It print photos better than I thought.

Mary

 

[measekite]

I have measekite filtered from my newsgroups, so I don't usually get
to read his nonsense unless it it gets quoted.

I also have long winded holier than thou beat around da bush filtered
out also.

I got tired of cutting him to ribbons, so I guess he feels like he can
make these snide comments now that I don't see them or respond.

But you do see them. Even in this post he thinks of me.

I hope he's getting a lot of joy from it.
:-D
I'm just glad to be rid of the nuisance.

But since I saw this, I'll expand slightly on the matter. When I
refer to retailers I am not referring to nor expecting the sales
clerks to have the answers to these questions.

Oh Yeah one who expects nothing is never disappointed and that is why so
many in this ng is not dissappointed with junk ink since they do not
excpect to see nice quality prints.

Retailers usually have email addresses and website and other methods
of requesting information regarding their products. This complexity
might be well beyond measekite's ability to comprehend, but for most
people reading here, I'm sure they fully understood that the
information might be beyond that of a sales clerk to answer.

It might be beyond one who asks the questions too.

 

[measekite]

Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak
can probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus
microporous.

You should not have to ask anyone. It should be labeled on the package
where people can read it.

 

[measekite]

Just to be clear, when you say:

For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands

I have been saying that for al long time and Canon ink has wven got better.

 

[Frank]

I have been saying that for al long time and Canon ink has wven got better.

Hobbicolors inks give much better results than canon oem does.

 

[Frank]

You should not have to ask anyone.

always ask...especially if a real expert is available to answer like Ron B.
It should be labeled on the package