Which do you prefer?

[aaron.kempf]

I don't discredit people that are speaking the truth.

you see.. i have this magical power called 'TRUTH' on my side.

the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I
won't put up with it.

the TRUTH is that microsoft.com/vb USED TO WORK

you guys sit there and say 'oh its not a big deal' but it's OBVIOUS
THAT MICROSOFTS VB.NET STRATEGY IS STILL FAILING

-Aaron

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I

won't put up with it.

You said in another post you use Goggle Groups to post, so why not
click "Add to favorites" in your browser? Or is this approach too
"verbose" and two much work for you?

Or even better, you could go to the comp.lang.php newsgroup and leave
us to our "dead" (your opinion not mine) language.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[Tom Leylan]

Robin:

How can we hope to have reasonable conversations when people are arguing
against comments. I don't know where they work but I've seen millions of
lines of code and I'm sure each programmer thought the code was completely
clear when in fact it was plainly not. What seems obvious as it is being
written won't be so obvious 3 years later when 8 of the original programmers
have quit. But let's say I include a SSort() routine, would developers
recognize it as a "stable sort" just by reading the code? I'll guess that
90% of the VB programmers haven't heard of a stable sort so how can they
recognize one? I'll also guess "what a dork doesn't he know there is a sort
method" is what some of the folks here would say.

But that is only one use of comments. They have been elevated in status
through the use of things like JavaDoc (in Java). In large apps I've seen
3, 4 and 5 versions of "identical functionality" simply because none of the
programmers knew the other functions existed when they wrote their own local
version. An automated system for producing printed documentation would go a
long way to reducing this stuff.

We also use them to track changes. With business critical apps (and I mean
daily or weekly turnaround schedules) it is important to know what changed,
who changed it, when it was changed and why it was changed. There is no
more sensible place to put this information than next to the code that
actually changed. And if you made a undocumented modification and the $14
million a year client dropped the company because your change ruined their
system you can bet there would be repercussions.

They aren't fun, and the system isn't perfect but how on Earth can anybody
be arguing against commenting? I suspect it's a game... the "your code is
inferior because you have to comment it" gambit. But my code isn't inferior
it is as good or better and it has reasonable and useful comments as well.

These types of threads come about continually, it's part of the coming of
age of software developers. I've had programmers (who "knew" they were the
greatest) tell me that programmers don't read documentation. When I
challenged that statement he asked if I thought the majority of programmers
read the docs and I answered, "no not the majority, just the good ones."

Well that's my 2 cents... everybody carry on

 

[aaron.kempf]

ROFL

good stuff.

it doesn't mean that other people don't have a problem finding it.

how much more popular is the C# newsgroup?

do you think that VB.net is just magically dying?

it's a few simple image things like this.. and microsoft.com/vb not
working-- that make it appear as if MS doesn't sell VB anymore

yes; it is a ****ing pain in the ass.

yes; it is important that ms gets this correctly.

it just flat out pisses me off; I hate the 'DOTNET' moniker.. and VB
2005 is not VB.net in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. IT IS CALLED VB 2005 NOT
VB.NET 2005

This would be like MS calling the next version of Windows 'Windows 95
Vista'

ROFL

I made a funny

-Aaron

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Tom,

How can we hope to have a reasonable conversation when people are arguing
before comments.

Comments should not be needed (with the exception as Robin told and I in
fact before him, that is to find where the underlying documentation for a
piece of code is or arguments why it is not done in another way when that is
more obvious).

You probably have never worked with well documentative program languages. I
did and I have seen people ruing those language making it a kind of
assembler and than fulfilling it with comments.

Robin has stated it in my idea very well although not in one thread.

I have seen a bunch of rotten code, very well commented because the
developer could not make a well written program.

I have seen often very well programs, unreadable because the programmer most
probably was driven by his manager to write comments. After deleting the
comments I could very well understand the program.

Therefore a well written program don't need comments which tell as Robin
already said.
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer

That is 90% (not even 80 as I normal write) the comments I have seen in my
live.

(spare me messages about my writting style I wrote it quick and very much
from my hart).

Cor

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Robin,

As you are longer active in these dotNet newsgroup you will (with messages)
meet more famous writers, I only know one who is not kind.



Cor

 

[aaron.kempf]

using appropriate names and comments are 2 seperate issues

-Aaron

 

[RobinS]

Well, it does depend on the code. As I said, and Cor agreed
with, adding comments that repeat the code is redundant. I
just add them to explain why I chose a particular method --
maybe because of something else that's happening somewhere
in the (huge) application, or because of a business reason.
Or if the code is really complicated, I'll put something in
to give the general idea.

I have known a lot of programmers that don't believe in it, but
my guess is they've never written anything so complicated it
requires a 30-page document just to explain the calculations
(been there, wrote the document), or they *have*, but they've
never had to change it or maintain it. *Or* they don't mind
spending days going through every line of code trying to figure
out exactly what it does. Ugh.

I even worked for one person who went through and *removed* my
comments. They said it made it harder for them to read the code.
About a year later, they called up and asked if I had a copy of
the code w/the comments in it (I did), and could I help them
figure something out because they had to change something in the
business logic, and they didn't have enough time to figure it
out by going through the code.

I guess the bottom line is that I tend to be detail-oriented,
and think about the long-term, and a few comments in the code
seems to make sense to me. I also have an appalling habit of
writing documentation for the really complicated stuff (like
the aforementioned calculations) to leave behind me. That's
just me.

Other people can make their own choices.

And that's *my* two cents'.

Robin S.

 

[RobinS]

Yes, I know what you mean -- I've noticed that pattern.

Robin S.

 

[Bruce W. Darby]

Ah, so being a new programmer automatically relegates me to the level of
being a 'cakehole'? Unworthy of nothing but your ire and derision? I
apologize to you if my statements made you feel so insecure that you had to
respond in the manner that you have. I was simply making the statement that
you cannot expect anyone to understand another's code without comments.Yet
you responded like any other troll would respond, with nothing but inane
tripe about something you know NOTHING about. If you wish to continue coding
without making comments, then by all means do so. But you should note deride
others because they think the practice is good and well-intentioned.

 

[Bruce W. Darby]

Seth,

Thanks for the welcome. I've lived too many years to allow someone like
'Master Programmer' to get under my skin.

Thanks for the welcome

 

[Bruce W. Darby]

it doesn't mean that other people don't have a problem finding it.

Aaron,

Wasn't hard to find at all. Went to my newsreader and typed 'vb' into the
search box. came right up with any group that had vb in the title.
Highlighted the group and then clicked on the GoTo button and here I am.

 

[Master Programmer]

' Say good by to the apostrophe

// because it's forward slash's for you all soon.

The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Fight for your history and future

 

[Master Programmer]

I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your ****ing mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.

It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.

The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Take back what belongs to us

 

[Bruce W. Darby]

So you admit that you cannot respond to a simple comment with anything less
than complete and utter filth. A programmer of many years, such as you claim
to be, is an educated individual who would not NEED to use such filth to get
his point across. The only time I have seen the use of such language is from
uneducated, young trolls on the Internet who think that the bastion of
separation that they are provided by the Internet allows them to speak any
way they wish without consequence. Thank you for bearing out my supposition
so clearly.

And I have not stated that commenting "every single line of code' is
necessary. YOU tried to put those words into my mouth. Quite unsanitary, to
say the least. I simply stated that commenting code is a good business
practice.

I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your ****ing mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.

It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.

Master Programmer, long ago I learned never to consider myself an 'expert'.
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I live with the knowledge
that I am never going to 'know it all'. And yet, I am good with that. If you
need the security blanket of the Internet to pound your chest and tell the
world that you are better than anyone else, just remember... an 'ex' is a
has been... and a 'spert' is a drip under pressure!

 

[RobinS]

' Say good by to the apostrophe

// because it's forward slash's for you all soon.

The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Fight for your history and future

//I can deal with that.
//I'm *flexible*.

Robin S.

 

[Master Programmer]

Hey Aaaron

Check this out ! RobinS has finally admitted that VB is going to be
history.

Steve

 

[verity_susan]

You are just as immature and pathetic as Master Programmer. The only
reason he is still here is because he keeps getting a response from you
- and you always reply. I think you should both grow up.

S Verity

 

[Bruce W. Darby]

Miss, or Ms,. Verity,

So you think I'm immature? My apologies, but Master Programmer, and Aaron
Kempf as well, have been getting posts from more folk than myself. Some very
good and well thought out posts as well. If I am immature to respond to a
person who is using profanity and degrading me as a human being, then so be
it. If you wish to just stick your head in the sand and hope that he will
just 'go away', then you are the immature one. He was here long before I
started posting here and he'll most likely be here long after I'm gone, from
the sound of things. I have done the 'right' mature thing and blocked any
messages from him from my newsreader. I do thank you for your response to
me, but you come across as a heavy-handed 'do what I say, not what I do'
type. If I am off-base on this, then I do submit my most abject apologies.
But before you start calling folks pathetic, think of what the reaction will
be to how YOU are perceived from your post.

 

[Bruce W. Darby]

To all that take advantage of this newsgroup, I extend my most abject
apologies for allowing this to go this far. Stephany, thanks for the heads
up on the makecab stuff, any others that have presented me with information
and pointers in the correct direction, I also extend my thanks to you for
that.