What's stopping efforts to connect world's children?

[YKhan]

A Crusade to Connect Children
"He does have some theories, though, for the overall opposition that
OLPC is encountering. "Considerable disinformation is coming from
communities that do not want to see Linux on the desktop. There are
also laptop interests that see us as competition," he points out."
http://www.businessweek.com/globalb...nology+index+page_more+of+today's+top+stories

 

[nobody]

A Crusade to Connect Children
"He does have some theories, though, for the overall opposition that
OLPC is encountering. "Considerable disinformation is coming from
communities that do not want to see Linux on the desktop. There are
also laptop interests that see us as competition," he points out."
http://www.businessweek.com/globalb...nology+index+page_more+of+today's+top+stories

From the same article: "Why are we even bothering? If we really want
to help these people, we should help them get clean drinking water." -
nuff said.

NNN

 

[YKhan]

From the same article: "Why are we even bothering? If we really want
to help these people, we should help them get clean drinking water." -
nuff said.

And then I suppose you just leave them there with some water?

Yousuf Khan

 

[nobody]

And then I suppose you just leave them there with some water?

Yousuf Khan

The issue is about $$$. The 3rd world states have very limited
resources, and there are priorities (water supply, to name just one)
that go before getting poor rural kids online. If you think Western
govts should finance education of 3rd world poors, I strongly
disagree. I'd rather contribute to my own kids' college fund than pay
extra taxes to promote developing competitors to my kids in poor
countries.
And yes, if there is one thing I want from US govt, it is building
barriers against outsourcing to India and other such places. You say
poor kids must get a chance on better life? My answer is - not at the
expense of US citizens relegated to driving cabs and flipping burgers.

NNN

 

[Yousuf Khan]

The issue is about $$$. The 3rd world states have very limited
resources, and there are priorities (water supply, to name just one)
that go before getting poor rural kids online. If you think Western
govts should finance education of 3rd world poors, I strongly
disagree. I'd rather contribute to my own kids' college fund than pay
extra taxes to promote developing competitors to my kids in poor
countries.
And yes, if there is one thing I want from US govt, it is building
barriers against outsourcing to India and other such places. You say
poor kids must get a chance on better life? My answer is - not at the
expense of US citizens relegated to driving cabs and flipping burgers.

Well, of course the US government is not subsidizing this one bit, it's
the companies who are contributing to the project who are doing most of
the subsidizing (at least while volumes are low).

And secondly, not all 3rd world countries are in such dire straits that
they only need basics like water first. Some of them simply have an
education of the masses problem.

Yousuf Khan

 

[nobody]

Well, of course the US government is not subsidizing this one bit, it's
the companies who are contributing to the project who are doing most of
the subsidizing (at least while volumes are low).

And then the companies write these contributions off their taxes.
Even if we left aside the accounting gimmics that usually go
hand-in-hand with tax writeoffs, the US govt (read - us taxpayers!)
subsidizes at least a part of the project.

And secondly, not all 3rd world countries are in such dire straits that
they only need basics like water first. Some of them simply have an
education of the masses problem.

And after these masses get their CompSci degrees do the domestic
economies have the jobs for these freshly baked "professionals"? No,
these folks don't take jobs in domestic economies, they steal jobs
from developed countries, and they compete not on talent, skill, or
knowledge - they simply undercut on price. There is no shortage of
qualified programmers in the US - there is a shortage of qualified
programmers willing to work for $18/hr 1099 (the price the offshore
company charged for the guys that replaced me 3 years ago in a job I
hoped to keep for years to come).

NNN

 

[YKhan]

And then the companies write these contributions off their taxes.
Even if we left aside the accounting gimmics that usually go
hand-in-hand with tax writeoffs, the US govt (read - us taxpayers!)
subsidizes at least a part of the project.

Tax writeoffs are available for creating jobs in America too, even more
so. AMD is going to get a $1 billion of tax concessions/subsidies in NY
for building a fab there, for example. Some of the people in NY are
complaining that the amount of tax writeoffs they're getting is not
proportional to the number of jobs being creating. Any tax writeoffs
from charitable work it's going to get is not going to anywhere near
what's getting just from building the fab in NY.

Then if we leave the US alone, you can see the billions it's getting
from Germany too. In fact, there's even a fab being created in India,
which is almost entirely financed by the government of India to a group
of non-resident Indians, called SemIndia. It's being built with AMD
technology, so it's quite likely that AMD will be either one of its
main customers and/or an investor in the firm that runs that fab. So as
you can see, there's a lot more money to be made from governments
everywhere if you build within their countries. Charitable tax
writeoffs are chicken-feed.

And after these masses get their CompSci degrees do the domestic
economies have the jobs for these freshly baked "professionals"? No,
these folks don't take jobs in domestic economies, they steal jobs
from developed countries, and they compete not on talent, skill, or
knowledge - they simply undercut on price. There is no shortage of
qualified programmers in the US - there is a shortage of qualified
programmers willing to work for $18/hr 1099 (the price the offshore
company charged for the guys that replaced me 3 years ago in a job I
hoped to keep for years to come).

It's seriously doubtful that this project will result in a lot of
CompSci majors being created. It's about as likely as the introduction
of phones/cellphones has resulted in a lot of telephone technicians
being created in these countries. The various devices being talked
about here are computer appliances rather than roll your own PCs. You
can't even upgrade their OSes or that applications. This is as it
should be: the computer should've become an appliance a long time back.
At best this will be something used as a communication device where you
can send pictures and sound.

Yousuf Khan

 

[nobody]

Tax writeoffs are available for creating jobs in America too, even more
so. AMD is going to get a $1 billion of tax concessions/subsidies in NY
for building a fab there, for example. Some of the people in NY are
complaining that the amount of tax writeoffs they're getting is not
proportional to the number of jobs being creating. Any tax writeoffs
from charitable work it's going to get is not going to anywhere near
what's getting just from building the fab in NY.

Yousuf, you are switching the subject. I have no objections against
companies getting tax breaks for creating jobs. I object against
taxpayers' money going - directly or indirectly through the tax breaks
for charitable contributions - to subsidize 3rd world - education, or,
for that matter, health care, nutrition, or whatever else charitable
purpose.

Then if we leave the US alone, you can see the billions it's getting
from Germany too. In fact, there's even a fab being created in India,
which is almost entirely financed by the government of India to a group
of non-resident Indians, called SemIndia. It's being built with AMD
technology, so it's quite likely that AMD will be either one of its
main customers and/or an investor in the firm that runs that fab. So as
you can see, there's a lot more money to be made from governments
everywhere if you build within their countries. Charitable tax
writeoffs are chicken-feed.

even $.01 is $.01 too much.

It's seriously doubtful that this project will result in a lot of
CompSci majors being created.

CompSci was used more like a figure of speech. However there is no
need in college degree or even high school diploma to use or even
maintain farm equipment or construction equipment or textile machinery
- and that's where 3rd world countries should invest to develop *their
own* economies. There is no need in India for so many engineers,
CompSci, biologists etc. that Indian colleges are churning out. The
only purpose in these excess college grads is the theft of jobs from
the West, that is given politically correct names of "outsourcing" and
"offshoring". Of course, at least partly must be blamed Western
corporations. Nobody here stateside in their right mind will work for
under $1000/month even as a janitor, much less as a programmer. In
India, they will lick the boss' shoes for this opportunity.

It's about as likely as the introduction
of phones/cellphones has resulted in a lot of telephone technicians
being created in these countries. The various devices being talked
about here are computer appliances rather than roll your own PCs. You
can't even upgrade their OSes or that applications. This is as it
should be: the computer should've become an appliance a long time back.
At best this will be something used as a communication device where you
can send pictures and sound.

Yousuf Khan

The world has finite resources. Uplifting the poor masses in 3rd
world can be done only at the price of drastically lowering living
standards in 1st world - and I, for one, firmly oppose it, including
"the effort to connect world's children". Sturdy rugged laptops for
under $100 belong to the shelves of ToysRus and WalMart, not to the
classrooms of some God forsaken places where education can be utilized
for one and only purpose - to steal MY job and the jobs of MY kids.

NNN

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

The world has finite resources. Uplifting the poor masses in 3rd
world can be done only at the price of drastically lowering living
standards in 1st world - and I, for one, firmly oppose it, including
"the effort to connect world's children". Sturdy rugged laptops for
under $100 belong to the shelves of ToysRus and WalMart, not to the
classrooms of some God forsaken places where education can be utilized
for one and only purpose - to steal MY job and the jobs of MY kids.

Based on your outpourings so far, I'd rather hire them than you. Get
over it - the universe doesn't owe you the job you'd like to have at
the salary you'd like to earn. And if your kids take after you, do us
all a favour and don't have any.

<plonk>

 

[YKhan]

Yousuf, you are switching the subject. I have no objections against
companies getting tax breaks for creating jobs. I object against
taxpayers' money going - directly or indirectly through the tax breaks
for charitable contributions - to subsidize 3rd world - education, or,
for that matter, health care, nutrition, or whatever else charitable
purpose.

No, you're the one who brought up and changed the subject to tax
breaks. Read back up through the quotes, if you like (I haven't trimmed
them). I merely pointed out that the charitable tax breaks are
nothing, compared to other tax breaks.

But regardless, it's already been established that the US government
has nothing to do with these projects. It's simply the companies
involved who made their investments and are willing to take some level
of initial losses while the market develops. That's no different than
any other market that gets developed for the first time.

even $.01 is $.01 too much.

I see. Hmm.

CompSci was used more like a figure of speech. However there is no
need in college degree or even high school diploma to use or even
maintain farm equipment or construction equipment or textile machinery
- and that's where 3rd world countries should invest to develop *their
own* economies. There is no need in India for so many engineers,
CompSci, biologists etc. that Indian colleges are churning out. The
only purpose in these excess college grads is the theft of jobs from
the West, that is given politically correct names of "outsourcing" and
"offshoring". Of course, at least partly must be blamed Western
corporations. Nobody here stateside in their right mind will work for
under $1000/month even as a janitor, much less as a programmer. In
India, they will lick the boss' shoes for this opportunity.

Unfortunately, if it were only so simple as price undercutting. They're
turning out so many engineers and scientists because they have a
superior education system to ours here in North America; it's not
merely about babysitting over there. Having grown up in North America,
and having a "Subcontinental" background myself, I've seen the two
education systems. Did you know that they're already learning algebra
by grade 6, and calculus by grade 9 or 10? At that age most North
American students are having a tough time memorizing history, let alone
doing calculus. On top of that, most parents over there are virtually
sitting on top of them to study, and keep studying because its a
disgrace to the family to get a bad mark. So I can safely say, you
haven't got a clue.

And I'm not sure if you've noticed all of the Indian names at the head
of so many Silicon Valley startups and venture capital outfits, have
you? Providing a lot of jobs to North Americans, I would say.

The world has finite resources. Uplifting the poor masses in 3rd
world can be done only at the price of drastically lowering living
standards in 1st world - and I, for one, firmly oppose it, including
"the effort to connect world's children". Sturdy rugged laptops for
under $100 belong to the shelves of ToysRus and WalMart, not to the
classrooms of some God forsaken places where education can be utilized
for one and only purpose - to steal MY job and the jobs of MY kids.

The companies that are involved in this venture want to eventually make
a profit from it, they're not doing it for sheer community spirit
alone. I'm sorry you lost your job (we've all lost a few jobs), but you
could've easily lost it to the company down the street, or in the next
state, or even to the company in some other 1st world country. The
outcome wouldn't have been any different for you.

Yousuf Khan

 

[nobody]

No, you're the one who brought up and changed the subject to tax
breaks. Read back up through the quotes, if you like (I haven't trimmed
them). I merely pointed out that the charitable tax breaks are
nothing, compared to other tax breaks.

But regardless, it's already been established that the US government
has nothing to do with these projects. It's simply the companies
involved who made their investments and are willing to take some level
of initial losses while the market develops. That's no different than
any other market that gets developed for the first time.


I see. Hmm.


Unfortunately, if it were only so simple as price undercutting. They're
turning out so many engineers and scientists because they have a
superior education system to ours here in North America; it's not
merely about babysitting over there. Having grown up in North America,
and having a "Subcontinental" background myself, I've seen the two
education systems. Did you know that they're already learning algebra

In elite schools in big cities that are not exactly the candidates for
OLPC program anyway. The majority of population though lives in rural
areas or city slums and I doubt they have access to such education -
or to clean drinking water, for that matter. Otherwise, why OLPC is
*needed* at all?

by grade 6, and calculus by grade 9 or 10? At that age most North
American students are having a tough time memorizing history, let alone
doing calculus. On top of that, most parents over there are virtually
sitting on top of them to study, and keep studying because its a
disgrace to the family to get a bad mark.

For us boys in USSR there was a much stronger incentive to study - the
Soviet Army, that was about as good as the Soviet prison (GULAG), 2
year sentence - no parole or time off for good behavior. Only full
time students were exempt from conscription, and there was only one
chance given to pass the college entry exam before being called up, so
we studied tail off, and our parents paid through the nose for extra
private lessons. On average there was about 5 candidates per seat. I
passed the exams and made the score. Most of my classmates didn't.
And the same incentive was in force all the way to graduation - the
guys that were dropped off from colleges for academic deficiency were
immediately subject to conscription.

So I can safely say, you
haven't got a clue.

Born and educated in USSR, I've got more of a clue than you might
think. Believe me, we back then started algebra at 5th grade and
calculus at 9th - and ALL schools throughout the country had the same
unified program of studies, except for some elite schools I wasn't
lucky to attend but heard that they did college level classes. And
AFAIK Russians still beat everyone in math, science, and chess
competitions, except maybe Israelis who essentially are the same
Russians. I also spent a few years in a US college (have both USSR and
US engineering degrees) so I can compare, and US school of engineering
(not Ivy League or MIT, but still a respectable university) looks
quite pale next to USSR. US 4 year grads (bachelors) are less
prepared for real world jobs than grads of Soviet analog of community
college (associate degree).

And I'm not sure if you've noticed all of the Indian names at the head
of so many Silicon Valley startups and venture capital outfits, have
you? Providing a lot of jobs to North Americans, I would say.

Not so many Russian names because firstly during Soviet times if one
managed to emigrate, he left with only 2 suitcases of cloths (used
only - new cloths were prohibited for "exporting") and under $100 in
cash - not exactly startup capital. And secondly, college educated
Russians traditionally shunned business, preferring to stay within
their field of technical expertise. But after the Soviet system
collapsed, Russian names slowly started popping up - S. Brin of GOOG,
for one.

The companies that are involved in this venture want to eventually make
a profit from it, they're not doing it for sheer community spirit
alone. I'm sorry you lost your job (we've all lost a few jobs), but you
could've easily lost it to the company down the street, or in the next
state, or even to the company in some other 1st world country. The
outcome wouldn't have been any different for you.

Yet some things drive me mad. I went straight way, and jumped through
all the hoops of US immigration law. The guys from India come on H1
or L1 visas, essentially exploiting the loopholes in the law. AFAIK
H1 requires the employer to prove that there is no qualified citizen
candidate for the job. I can only repeat - there is no shortage of
qualified professionals in the US, there is a shortage of qualified
professionals willing to work for $18/hr 1099. And believe me, if
some Russia-based company stole my job the way the Indian company did,
I'd be just as mad.

NNN