Using the Automated System Recovery Wizard in XP Home

J

Jim

Why don't they just make what they sell work???

I get the following message while using ASR backup on an
emachine with XP Home installed:

"The files for recovery diskette could not be created. The
operation was cancelled." when attempting to write to the
floppy.

The proposed solution at
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-
US;302700 states I must install Ntbackup.msi file from the
Windows XP Home Edition CD-ROM. Why? Which version is
already installed on my machine? Will it make a
difference? Will this overwrite the one that is already
there? Is that OK? Very confusing!!!

My next problem, since emachines does not supply a copy of
the Windows XP Home Edition CD-ROM with there computers,
will it work to borrow somebody elses CD to install
Ntbackup.msi on the emachine? If not, what next? How do I
just get Gates to fix his stuff???

Thanks, Jim
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Jim said:
Why don't they just make what they sell work???

I get the following message while using ASR backup on an
emachine with XP Home installed:

"The files for recovery diskette could not be created. The
operation was cancelled." when attempting to write to the
floppy.

The proposed solution at
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-
US;302700 states I must install Ntbackup.msi file from the
Windows XP Home Edition CD-ROM. Why? Which version is
already installed on my machine? Will it make a
difference? Will this overwrite the one that is already
there? Is that OK? Very confusing!!!

My next problem, since emachines does not supply a copy of
the Windows XP Home Edition CD-ROM with there computers,
will it work to borrow somebody elses CD to install
Ntbackup.msi on the emachine? If not, what next? How do I
just get Gates to fix his stuff???

Next time, don't buy OEM, because Microsoft does not support it (for good
reason.)
An OEM can pretty much add/subtract whatever they want from the OEM
CD/backup they supply you with. Neat, huh?
 
J

Jim

-----Original Message-----


Next time, don't buy OEM, because Microsoft does not support it (for good
reason.)
An OEM can pretty much add/subtract whatever they want from the OEM
CD/backup they supply you with. Neat, huh?

What does buying from OEM mean? Is emachines OEM? Is Sony
OEM? Then who should I buy a computer from? Bill Gates?
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Jim said:
Why don't they just make what they sell work???

I get the following message while using ASR backup on an
emachine with XP Home installed:

"The files for recovery diskette could not be created. The
operation was cancelled." when attempting to write to the
floppy.

The proposed solution at
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-
US;302700 states I must install Ntbackup.msi file from the
Windows XP Home Edition CD-ROM. Why? Which version is
already installed on my machine? Will it make a
difference? Will this overwrite the one that is already
there? Is that OK? Very confusing!!!

My next problem, since emachines does not supply a copy of
the Windows XP Home Edition CD-ROM with there computers,
will it work to borrow somebody elses CD to install
Ntbackup.msi on the emachine? If not, what next? How do I
just get Gates to fix his stuff???
Next time, don't buy OEM, because Microsoft does not support it (for
good reason.)
An OEM can pretty much add/subtract whatever they want from the OEM
CD/backup they supply you with. Neat, huh?
What does buying from OEM mean? Is emachines OEM? Is Sony
OEM? Then who should I buy a computer from? Bill Gates?

Buy the machines without an OS and get a volume license if this is a
business.
Buy the machines without an OS and buy retail copies of the OS.

The machine being OEM is.. well, practically required. Even if you built it
by parts you assembled, it just makes you the OEM.. But OEM Windows OS
copies are not supported by Microsoft.. Thus they are cheaper. Your support
for the OS then comes from the OEM who sold you the copy of the OS.

Where I work, we buy the Dell/Gateway/Compaq/whatever - most of the time it
comes with the OS, but we have a site license for Microsoft Products, so we
redo the machines with this copy and get our support for the OS from
Microsoft.

As for part of your problem, the files on the CDs are essentially the same
for OEM/Retail/Upgrade excluding some have more files than others, a few
numbers are changed to define what type they are and possibly the OEM in
question made their own changes. You should be fine getting the file(s) you
need from another CD.
 
J

Jim

Thanks for the lesson on the OEM business.

Do you have any answers to my questions? You seem to be
very knowledgeable and I would appreciate some zero dollar
solutions with the emachine that I have... if possible.

Thanks, Jim
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Shenan said:
As for part of your problem, the files on the CDs are essentially
the same for OEM/Retail/Upgrade excluding some have more files than
others, a few numbers are changed to define what type they are and
possibly the OEM in question made their own changes. You should be
fine getting the file(s) you need from another CD.
Thanks for the lesson on the OEM business.

Do you have any answers to my questions? You seem to be
very knowledgeable and I would appreciate some zero dollar
solutions with the emachine that I have... if possible.

The last part of that latest spill should tell you that your suggestion of
borrowing an XP HOME CD should work with no problem. Just borrow the CD and
do what the knowledge base article directs you to do:

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=302700

Of course, the part relevant to you really is this:
"This behavior can occur because ASR is not supported in Windows XP Home
Edition. However, Windows XP Home Edition users can access the ASR Wizard
if they install the Ntbackup program from the Valueadd folder on the Windows
XP Home Edition CD-ROM."

And this:
"The error message in the Symptoms section of this article is not always
displayed. When the error message is not displayed, you can create a backup
set with ASR. In the situation where a backup set is created with ASR, the
startup floppy disks that are created to use with ASR do not work with
Windows XP Home Edition."

So even creating these diskettes, they will likely be worthless - as you
stated you are using Windows XP Home.

Remember - The Windows XP CD is bootable.. If you have even ONE original XP
Home CD in your possession, - you likely don't need the ASR. Other options
are Bart's PE Builder (free) and rolling your own CDs. For the thousands of
machines I administer, I don't have a single ASR set. I trust in XP more
than any previous OS, although I never had any such means for
repair.
 
J

Jim

Thanks for your replies and suggestions. I'll get
something to work.

Two things that really bug me, these OEM guys definition
of recovery is to go back to day 1 which is what we had to
do since nothing would boot. That is the stupidest form of
recovery I've ever heard of.

The second thing is that XP Home already has a Backup
installed. The ASR option just doesn't work. That's why I
was able to get the error messages. So Microsoft's
solution is to install the NT version of Backup with all
of the caveats. Which is a giant KLUDGE in my opinion. Why
not get the Home version of Backup to work? Incredible.

Thanks again, Jim
 
R

Rocket J. Squirrel

Quit running your mouth off and RTFM: ASR is not available on XP Home. While
mentions of this feature do exist in the backup utility of Windows XP Home,
ASR is only functional in Windows XP Professional.

Rocky
 
J

Jim

Then why is it an option with the backup installed on the
computer shipped from the factory? If it's not supposed to
work, then it shouldn't be installed.

Why is Microsoft offering a solution for XP Home to the
message:

"The files for recovery diskette could not be created. The
operation was cancelled." ?

Where does that come from? It comes from the Backup
installed on XP Home.

Then to compound the problem, Microsoft offers a KLUDGEY
fix to the version that is installed with Home. Something
is horribly wrong with this picture. And I'll run off at
the mouth forever and ever about that.
 
M

mrtee

The following is from Woody's XP Watch #2.05 (2/4/2002):

Last week I promised you that I would tell you about backup techniques for Windows XP/Home. If you'll recall, I told you that Windows XP/Pro has a downright decent backup and restore wizard, which runs as part of Automated System Recovery, accessible by clicking Start | All Programs | Accessories | System Tools | Backup. I also told you about the way Microsoft decided to include the backup half of the wizard in Windows XP/Home but, uh, neglected to include the restore part. In my WinXP book, I say "that makes XP/Home's backup just about as useful as a Ferrari Testarossa with no wheels."
If you really, really want to use the ASR backup routine in XP/Home (it's the NTBackup program that Windows 2000 users have come to know and love), you can install it from the Windows XP/Home CD. To do so, put the XP/Home CD in your CD drive. When the installer asks, "What do you want to do?" click "Perform additional tasks" then "Browse this CD", navigate to VALUEADD\MSFT\NTBACKUP and double-click NTBACKUP.MSI.

But don't bother installing the program until you've the rest of this newsletter. It should send a chill down your spine.

I tried a few experiments and learned a few surprising things about XP/Home backup. There's an MS Knowledge Base article that's supposed to tell you what you need to do in order to perform an XP/Home restore, but I tried and tried and couldn't make heads from tails out of the article. The boot diskette generated by the backup program, following the description in the KB article, doesn't work on any of my systems. The steps detailed there for creating a backup file do work - you have to manually override the wizard's settings - but in the end, the backup isn't much use.

Microsoft outright lies in their Knowledge Base article Q309340 where it says the restore feature "applies to Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition" when it most assuredly does not - any backup that you make in XP/Home is essentially worthless. Even if you tell the XP/Home "Backup or Restore Wizard" to restore the entire contents of the c: drive, it misses parts.

The only way I found to restore the c: drive, after using NTBACKUP to create a backup file was to boot from the Windows XP/Home CD, completely delete the partition that held Windows, re-install WinXP/Home, re-install NTBACKUP using the steps I outlined above, and immediately run the restore using the Advanced settings in the wizard.

You know the worst part of it all? At every turn, it appears as if everything is working correctly, No error message. No warnings. No nothing. The Knowledge Base articles occasionally warn you that the procedures don't work with XP/Home - then go ahead and give you specific steps for performing the procedures that don't work! Unless somebody's clued you in, you'll only get heartburn over XP/Home's clueless backup when you need it - and find out that it didn't do what it was supposed to do.

Trustworthy computing, eh?

So now I've spoiled all your illusions about Backups in Windows XP what can you do? In the next issue I'll tell you what I do and what options you can try.

From #2.06 (2/12/2002):

There are a million ways to back up your system, and at least a half million of them work.

I've been playing the backup game for a long time, and I've only bumped into three basic scenarios where I really needed a backup. Mind you, I'm not a major multinational corporation, and I don't have a server farm. Although I do have an orchid farm. But that's another story.

I need backups for three reasons.

First, sometimes my c: drive dies. When that happens, I need to stick a new drive in the machine, boot, restore the hard drive, restore my data, and get going. I also lose at least two hanks of hair and at least one night of sleep.

Second, sometimes I screw up a file so badly I need to go back and retrieve an earlier copy. When that happens, I know about it right away: I shout and kick the computer and swear a few times, then go spelunking to look for an old copy of the file.

Third, on rare occasions, I'll make a change that needs to be undone and not catch it right away. I can only think of a couple of times I've done that, and it usually involves dial-up networking settings - I get the wrong password typed in, or I forget the name of a mail server, or something else equally obscure, and it's a couple of days later before I realize that I changed something I shouldn't have.

The technique I use for backup works very well for the second kind of problem, and pretty well for the first kind. It doesn't do beans for the third type.

My method is really simple. I like it that way.

1. All my PCs have two hard drives. The second one is primarily for backups, but I'll also stick device drivers and Service Packs and other not-critical-but-a-pain-to-download files on the second drive. The second drive also has copies of my old Outlook files, which I cycle manually once a month.

2. Every week or two (or whenever I'm going to do something fun like install new software) I run PowerQuest's Drive Image and create a full backup image of my main boot drive on the secondary drive. Drive Image generates boot disks and all the other goodies necessary to recovery from a crashed c: drive.

3. Every day - usually at the end of the day, I run a little batch file that copies all of my important data files from the main hard drive onto the backup drive. This is really a bailing wire 'n chewing gum approach, but it works fine for me. To make your own batch file that copies your data files from the c: drive to the d: drive, just do this:

a.. Right-click on the desktop, pick New | Text document
b.. Immediately type the name backup.bat and hit Enter. Windows will warn you not to change the file name extension. Which is really weird because Windows doesn't bother to show you file name extensions in the first place, but such is the Wonder of Windows. What you have is an old-fashioned batch file.
c.. Right-click on the new backup.bat file and pick Edit
d.. Type in this line:
xcopy "c:\Documents and Settings\*.*" "d:\Backup" /d /e /c /h /y

a.. Close backup.bat.
b.. When you want to run a backup, double-click on backup.bat. The first time you run it, Windows will ask if you're trying to create a file or directory. Type "d" for directory. After the first time, it'll run without a hitch.
Hate to disappoint you, but that's my entire backup strategy.

That strategy might not suit you, not all of us have to install beta versions of Office and Windows from time to time.

XP/Home users have some other options. For example, Microsoft has a set of six (six!) setup boot diskettes that you can download. Those diskettes will let you boot from your floppy drive, so you can run Windows XP setup from the CD, if your computer won't boot from the CD.


The archives are at http://www.woodyswatch.com/winxp/archives.asp.

MS was originally not even going to include ntbackup in XP home but (apparently) someone talked them into including it, with reduced functionality.

I used ASR with XP pro, it worked as advertised. However I now use an imaging program from www.acronis.com TrueImage which works very easily and does the job much better.


--
Just my 2¢ worth
Jeff
__________in response to__________
| Then why is it an option with the backup installed on the
| computer shipped from the factory? If it's not supposed to
| work, then it shouldn't be installed.
|
| Why is Microsoft offering a solution for XP Home to the
| message:
|
| "The files for recovery diskette could not be created. The
| operation was cancelled." ?
|
| Where does that come from? It comes from the Backup
| installed on XP Home.
|
| Then to compound the problem, Microsoft offers a KLUDGEY
| fix to the version that is installed with Home. Something
| is horribly wrong with this picture. And I'll run off at
| the mouth forever and ever about that.
 
J

Jim

Jeff,

Thanks for the information. The ASR backup looks like a
terrific concept. Too bad MS didn't think it was valuable
enough for us poor Home users.
-----Original Message-----
The following is from Woody's XP Watch #2.05 (2/4/2002):

Last week I promised you that I would tell you about
backup techniques for Windows XP/Home. If you'll recall, I
told you that Windows XP/Pro has a downright decent backup
and restore wizard, which runs as part of Automated System
Recovery, accessible by clicking Start | All Programs |
Accessories | System Tools | Backup. I also told you about
the way Microsoft decided to include the backup half of
the wizard in Windows XP/Home but, uh, neglected to
include the restore part. In my WinXP book, I say "that
makes XP/Home's backup just about as useful as a Ferrari
Testarossa with no wheels."
If you really, really want to use the ASR backup routine
in XP/Home (it's the NTBackup program that Windows 2000
users have come to know and love), you can install it from
the Windows XP/Home CD. To do so, put the XP/Home CD in
your CD drive. When the installer asks, "What do you want
to do?" click "Perform additional tasks" then "Browse this
CD", navigate to VALUEADD\MSFT\NTBACKUP and double-click
NTBACKUP.MSI.
But don't bother installing the program until you've the
rest of this newsletter. It should send a chill down your
spine.
I tried a few experiments and learned a few surprising
things about XP/Home backup. There's an MS Knowledge Base
article that's supposed to tell you what you need to do in
order to perform an XP/Home restore, but I tried and tried
and couldn't make heads from tails out of the article. The
boot diskette generated by the backup program, following
the description in the KB article, doesn't work on any of
my systems. The steps detailed there for creating a backup
file do work - you have to manually override the wizard's
settings - but in the end, the backup isn't much use.
Microsoft outright lies in their Knowledge Base article
Q309340 where it says the restore feature "applies to
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition" when it most assuredly
does not - any backup that you make in XP/Home is
essentially worthless. Even if you tell the
XP/Home "Backup or Restore Wizard" to restore the entire
contents of the c: drive, it misses parts.
The only way I found to restore the c: drive, after using
NTBACKUP to create a backup file was to boot from the
Windows XP/Home CD, completely delete the partition that
held Windows, re-install WinXP/Home, re-install NTBACKUP
using the steps I outlined above, and immediately run the
restore using the Advanced settings in the wizard.
You know the worst part of it all? At every turn, it
appears as if everything is working correctly, No error
message. No warnings. No nothing. The Knowledge Base
articles occasionally warn you that the procedures don't
work with XP/Home - then go ahead and give you specific
steps for performing the procedures that don't work!
Unless somebody's clued you in, you'll only get heartburn
over XP/Home's clueless backup when you need it - and find
out that it didn't do what it was supposed to do.
Trustworthy computing, eh?

So now I've spoiled all your illusions about Backups in
Windows XP what can you do? In the next issue I'll tell
you what I do and what options you can try.
From #2.06 (2/12/2002):

There are a million ways to back up your system, and at
least a half million of them work.
I've been playing the backup game for a long time, and
I've only bumped into three basic scenarios where I really
needed a backup. Mind you, I'm not a major multinational
corporation, and I don't have a server farm. Although I do
have an orchid farm. But that's another story.
I need backups for three reasons.

First, sometimes my c: drive dies. When that happens, I
need to stick a new drive in the machine, boot, restore
the hard drive, restore my data, and get going. I also
lose at least two hanks of hair and at least one night of
sleep.
Second, sometimes I screw up a file so badly I need to go
back and retrieve an earlier copy. When that happens, I
know about it right away: I shout and kick the computer
and swear a few times, then go spelunking to look for an
old copy of the file.
Third, on rare occasions, I'll make a change that needs
to be undone and not catch it right away. I can only think
of a couple of times I've done that, and it usually
involves dial-up networking settings - I get the wrong
password typed in, or I forget the name of a mail server,
or something else equally obscure, and it's a couple of
days later before I realize that I changed something I
shouldn't have.
The technique I use for backup works very well for the
second kind of problem, and pretty well for the first
kind. It doesn't do beans for the third type.
My method is really simple. I like it that way.

1. All my PCs have two hard drives. The second one is
primarily for backups, but I'll also stick device drivers
and Service Packs and other not-critical-but-a-pain-to-
download files on the second drive. The second drive also
has copies of my old Outlook files, which I cycle manually
once a month.
2. Every week or two (or whenever I'm going to do
something fun like install new software) I run
PowerQuest's Drive Image and create a full backup image of
my main boot drive on the secondary drive. Drive Image
generates boot disks and all the other goodies necessary
to recovery from a crashed c: drive.
3. Every day - usually at the end of the day, I run a
little batch file that copies all of my important data
files from the main hard drive onto the backup drive. This
is really a bailing wire 'n chewing gum approach, but it
works fine for me. To make your own batch file that copies
your data files from the c: drive to the d: drive, just do
this:
a.. Right-click on the desktop, pick New | Text document
b.. Immediately type the name backup.bat and hit Enter.
Windows will warn you not to change the file name
extension. Which is really weird because Windows doesn't
bother to show you file name extensions in the first
place, but such is the Wonder of Windows. What you have is
an old-fashioned batch file.
c.. Right-click on the new backup.bat file and pick Edit
d.. Type in this line:
xcopy "c:\Documents and
Settings\*.*" "d:\Backup" /d /e /c /h /y
a.. Close backup.bat.
b.. When you want to run a backup, double-click on
backup.bat. The first time you run it, Windows will ask if
you're trying to create a file or directory. Type "d" for
directory. After the first time, it'll run without a hitch.
Hate to disappoint you, but that's my entire backup strategy.

That strategy might not suit you, not all of us have to
install beta versions of Office and Windows from time to
time.
XP/Home users have some other options. For example,
Microsoft has a set of six (six!) setup boot diskettes
that you can download. Those diskettes will let you boot
from your floppy drive, so you can run Windows XP setup
from the CD, if your computer won't boot from the CD.
The archives are at http://www.woodyswatch.com/winxp/archives.asp.

MS was originally not even going to include ntbackup in
XP home but (apparently) someone talked them into
including it, with reduced functionality.
I used ASR with XP pro, it worked as advertised. However
I now use an imaging program from www.acronis.com
TrueImage which works very easily and does the job much
better.
--
Just my 2¢ worth
Jeff
__________in response to__________
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
 

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