USB Extenders?

[Davej]

Anyone tried using low-cost USB extenders? They use Cat5 cable. I am
wondering if they could be used to place a webcam up high where a more
interesting view would be available.

 

[John Doe]

Anyone tried using low-cost USB extenders? They use Cat5 cable.
I am wondering if they could be used to place a webcam up high
where a more interesting view would be available.

Issues of extending cables include signal strength and noise. It
partly depends on your device and your USB ports. If it doesn't
work for your intended device, it might work for something else.

 

[Paul]

Anyone tried using low-cost USB extenders? They use Cat5 cable. I am
wondering if they could be used to place a webcam up high where a more
interesting view would be available.

Supporting USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 ?

If the former, I would think your webcam wouldn't work
very well.

Paul

 

[DevilsPGD]

In the last episode of

Issues of extending cables include signal strength and noise.

USB extenders or active repeaters largely solve the signal strength and
noise problems by appearing as hubs and regenerating the signal.

However, overall latency can still be a factor, not all devices will
function correctly with an extender.

Unfortunately the only way to know is to try it.

 

[Mike Easter]

Anyone tried using low-cost USB extenders? They use Cat5 cable. I am
wondering if they could be used to place a webcam up high where a more
interesting view would be available.

This company makes and markets a family of such extenders and related
products with their tech and has a faq about their products and invites
questions about particular applications for the products they make.

http://www.icron.com/products/usb/faq.php We extend USB up to 10km
over fiber optic cabling with our USB extender products, and extend HD
video up to 500m over Cat 5 cable with our KVM products. <also>
Video, Audio, and USB 2.0 over one single cable
500 meter distance over Cat 5 cable (Fiber distances over inexpensive
Cat 5)
Uncompressed HD video and USB 2.0 over a single Cat 5 cable
LAN connectivity
Up to 1920 x 1200 video support

 

[John Doe]

USB extenders or active repeaters largely solve the signal
strength and noise problems by appearing as hubs and
regenerating the signal.

I can't tell for sure, but I had the impression he was talking
about a simple unpowered extension cable.

What's the difference between your "extender" and your "active
repeater"? The only difference I can guess is that your "extender"
does not include a buffer. In that case, it would not regenerate
the signal.

 

[Paul]

This company makes and markets a family of such extenders and related
products with their tech and has a faq about their products and invites
questions about particular applications for the products they make.

http://www.icron.com/products/usb/faq.php We extend USB up to 10km
over fiber optic cabling with our USB extender products, and extend HD
video up to 500m over Cat 5 cable with our KVM products. <also>
Video, Audio, and USB 2.0 over one single cable
500 meter distance over Cat 5 cable (Fiber distances over inexpensive
Cat 5)
Uncompressed HD video and USB 2.0 over a single Cat 5 cable
LAN connectivity
Up to 1920 x 1200 video support

The icron usb-2.0-ranger-2212 is $366, and pumps power to the other end. 100 meter reach.

http://www.smartvm.com/icron-usb-2.0-ranger-2212-2-port-extender-hub-upto-330ft-p44319.htm

The icron rover-2650 is $110 and is USB 1.1.

http://www.l-com.com/productFamily.aspx?id=2183

There is a bit of a price difference to watch out for. If the price is
really cheap, it could be USB 1.1.

To pump 480 megabits per second through the Cat5, you probably wouldn't
want to do that on one pair of wires. GbE Ethernet, pumps more than that
through the wire, but uses 125MHz 5-level logic signals, carried on all
four wire pairs. It means GbE Ethernet tried to keep the spectral
content down, for reasons of crosstalk. (Crosstalk being an issue,
if multiple Cat5 cables are pressed together with nylon cable ties.)
Pushing 480 meg through a single pair, using ordinary logic levels,
would be more challenging. Doing it for USB 1.1, might not be nearly
as challenging.

It would be interesting to see whether the Cat5 wire in each case, is
specified to have all eight wires or not (to see whether they use all
wire pairs or not).

Paul

 

[Paul]

The icron usb-2.0-ranger-2212 is $366, and pumps power to the other end.
100 meter reach.

http://www.smartvm.com/icron-usb-2.0-ranger-2212-2-port-extender-hub-upto-330ft-p44319.htm


The icron rover-2650 is $110 and is USB 1.1.

http://www.l-com.com/productFamily.aspx?id=2183

There is a bit of a price difference to watch out for. If the price is
really cheap, it could be USB 1.1.

To pump 480 megabits per second through the Cat5, you probably wouldn't
want to do that on one pair of wires. GbE Ethernet, pumps more than that
through the wire, but uses 125MHz 5-level logic signals, carried on all
four wire pairs. It means GbE Ethernet tried to keep the spectral
content down, for reasons of crosstalk. (Crosstalk being an issue,
if multiple Cat5 cables are pressed together with nylon cable ties.)
Pushing 480 meg through a single pair, using ordinary logic levels,
would be more challenging. Doing it for USB 1.1, might not be nearly
as challenging.

It would be interesting to see whether the Cat5 wire in each case, is
specified to have all eight wires or not (to see whether they use all
wire pairs or not).

Paul

Interesting. I tried a search, to see if someone made a single chip
solution to do this. And the same company makes a chip.

http://www.icron.com/products/usb_new/extremeusb.php

MII or GMII for Cat 5 extension using standard Ethernet PHY devices

What that means is, their chip can be digital only, with no messy
analog to worry about, by using an Ethernet PHY to drive the cable.
So in fact, they have the ability to use regular Ethernet signal
levels (without the packets on the wire, being exactly Ethernet -
the packet format can be better suited to transporting USB). It
means this is a two chip solution, but the partitioning makes more sense.

USB --- converter_chip --- (MII interface) --- Ethernet_PHY_chip - xfrm - Cat5

By keeping standard Ethernet levels, it negates the need to worry about
what happens to the cable. And the transformer isolation used in Ethernet,
helps avoid dangerous ground differences. (If you're going to run the
Cat5 outdoors though, there is still lightning to worry about. For outdoors,
fiber at around $900 would be a better choice. And even then, you have to
worry about how the remote device gets power. If you need to plug in a wall
adapter, somewhere in your back yard, then the extension cord becomes a
lightning issue.)

Paul

 

[Davej]

The icron usb-2.0-ranger-2212 is $366, and pumps power to the other end. 100 meter reach.

http://www.smartvm.com/icron-usb-2.0-ranger-2212-2-port-extender-hub-...

The icron rover-2650 is $110 and is USB 1.1.

http://www.l-com.com/productFamily.aspx?id=2183

There is a bit of a price difference to watch out for. If the price is
really cheap, it could be USB 1.1.

To pump 480 megabits per second through the Cat5, you probably wouldn't
want to do that on one pair of wires. GbE Ethernet, pumps more than that
through the wire, but uses 125MHz 5-level logic signals, carried on all
four wire pairs. It means GbE Ethernet tried to keep the spectral
content down, for reasons of crosstalk. (Crosstalk being an issue,
if multiple Cat5 cables are pressed together with nylon cable ties.)
Pushing 480 meg through a single pair, using ordinary logic levels,
would be more challenging. Doing it for USB 1.1, might not be nearly
as challenging.

It would be interesting to see whether the Cat5 wire in each case, is
specified to have all eight wires or not (to see whether they use all
wire pairs or not).

    Paul

Well, it is interesting that while I can google and find various
inexpensive products which claim to extend USB 2.0 it is much more
difficult to find such products on a respectable site such as NewEgg.
Here is one on amazon, and although it is not the extra-long Cat5
type, there are some positive reviews regarding use with some webcams.

http://www.amazon.com/PTC-Meters-Extension-Repeater-Supports/dp/B0040IASMS/ref=pd_vtp_e_5

 

[John Doe]

Well, it is interesting that while I can google and find various
inexpensive products which claim to extend USB 2.0 it is much
more difficult to find such products on a respectable site such
as NewEgg.

Really? Yeah, that is interesting and important.

 

[Paul]

Well, it is interesting that while I can google and find various
inexpensive products which claim to extend USB 2.0 it is much more
difficult to find such products on a respectable site such as NewEgg.
Here is one on amazon, and although it is not the extra-long Cat5
type, there are some positive reviews regarding use with some webcams.

http://www.amazon.com/PTC-Meters-Extension-Repeater-Supports/dp/B0040IASMS/ref=pd_vtp_e_5

Unfortunately, that is not a Cat5 style device.

There are two kinds of USB extenders. The one on the Amazon page is a
"Native" extender. The wires carry standard USB electrical signals
at all times. The one in particular you have selected, could be
one that "cheats". The USB spec says an active repeater can be up
to 5 meters long. This is a non-cheating one, with one "lump".
It is 5 meters long.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120087

This cable is 10 meters long, and nobody seems to notice an
extra "lump" on this one. For that to work, the time of flight
of the electrical signal, would need to be half of what it was on the
previous one. I can't understand how this is possible.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812156026

And this company, sells some different ones. You can connect four of
their 5 meter products, four of their 10 meter products (one lump),
two of their 20 meter products (two lumps each?), or use one
of their 50 meter products (five lumps ?). Adding an active hub
to the end of the 50 meter product would not work, so only
a 100mA load could be put at the end of the cable (or, you
could arrange to power the device yourself).

http://www.vpi.us/usb-extender.html

*******

To detect cheating, you look for "lumps" in the cable. The lump
has a one port USB hub chip inside it. And that is used for
regeneration of the signal (plus the usual hub thru-delay).
In this example, the lumps do digital regeneration. If you
had a program which listed the USB devices, each of the
lumps would register as a "hub".

USB USB USB USB
Host ----- lump ------ lump ------ lump -------- device

In the Amazon picture, I see a lump in the middle of the cable,
plus a lump on the end. Since the cable is coiled up,
I cannot determine if there are more lumps or not. It could
be two 10 meter designs placed end to end, like the Sabrent one.

The 5 meter limit on USB, is a time domain limit. It assumes
a certain dielectric constant and time of flight. With an exotic
dielectric, perhaps the distance can be changed a bit. But I doubt
you could change things by a factor of four. And therefore, the
cable in question is undoubtedly cheating by having multiple
regenerators.

The Cat5 solution, changes transmission methods, and gets the
extra reach that way. I'm not sure how they manage to beat
the latency requirement.

USB Ethernet_over_cat5 USB
Host ------ Cat5_Box -------------------- Cat5_Box -------- device

You can buy 5 meter active repeater solutions, with one "lump" per cable.
Since the regenerator is on the end of the cable, you can have 5 meters
more of passive cable to the webcam.

USB
Host ------ lump ----X <---- Plug in another passive cable plus webcam, here

The thing is, bus powered devices have a current limit on them, so
once you start using extenders, you have a 100mA limit. This is not
sufficient for any good USB webcams (ones with motors and autofocus).
To solve that problem, you need an active hub down at the end. The
active hub, has its own wall adapter. That changes the current limit
on the active hub, to 500mA.

USB USB USB USB
Host ------ lump ----X ----- (passive cable) ----- Active_hub ------- webcam
| 500mA
|
Wall adapter
5V @ 500mA or greater

Now, the other detail, is the maximum number of hubs/regenerators, allowed
between a host and a peripheral. And this is further complicated, by
certain recent Intel Southbridges, where the idiots burned up a hub
inside the Southbridge, cutting down the max number of repeater cables
by one.

http://www.usb.org/results?q=faq&submit=Search&siteurl=www.usb.org/home&ref=

"I really need to put a USB device more than 30 meters away from my PC.
What should I do?

A: Build a USB bridge that acts as a USB device on one side and has a USB host
controller at the other end. Use a long-haul signaling protocol like Ethernet
or RS-485 in the middle. Using cables or short-haul fiber, you can get ranges
upwards of a kilometer, though there's no reason why the long-haul link in the
middle of the bridge couldn't be a pair of radio transceivers or satellite modems.

Embedded host solutions capable of doing this already exist. Also, two PCs
connected via USB Ethernet adapters are essentially a slave/slave version of
this master/slave bridge."

So that tells you, the max reach (according to the USB.org site) using regenerators,
is 30 meters. If you want more than 30 meters, then it's the "Cat5 bridge" solution,
which doesn't use USB to make the extra distance. If we use those "double-reach"
native USB cables, it would seem we could hit 60 meters.

To do the 30 meters, you'd need four repeater cables, two passive cables, an
active hub with 5V power adapter, and the web cam. I'm drawing this, to match the
30 meter claim on USB.org.

Host ----- lump ----- lump ----- lump ----- lump --------- active --------- webcam
hub 500mA
<--------> <--------> <--------> <--------> <--------> <------->
5 meter 5 meter 5 meter 5 meter 5 meter up to 5
active active active active cable meter
repeater repeater repeater repeater cable

If you have the Intel chipset with an "internal" hub in the Southbridge, you
have to remove one of the repeater cables, and the total reach is 25 meters
instead of 30 meters. Note that this is a "feature" on recent chipsets. If
you had a motherboard from the LGA775 era, chances are you could build
out the full 30 meters. On AMD chipsets, they might not have done
the same thing as Intel did, so they might be 30 meters as well.

By comparison, the Cat5 bridge, doesn't have these limits. But may still
have practical limits, if the device has its own response latency
requirements (buffer overflow). So doing it this way, for $300 or so, removes
the 25 meter or 30 meter limit, and takes you to 100 meters over copper. (And a lot
further with a $900 fiber setup.)

USB Ethernet_over_cat5 USB
Host ------ Cat5_Box -------------------- Cat5_Box -------- device
electrical signals

There are a number of aspects of this question, I cannot adequately
answer. Time of flight is proportional to SQRT(Er) and looking at
some velocity factor values, I don't see a span of a factor of two,
between the best and worst cable dielectrics. So I don't understand
how they can make a 10 meter length with one regenerator on it. And
on the Cat5 device case, if the left hand Cat5 box terminates the
USB protocol, on behalf of the right hand end, aren't there going
to be situations where that will foul up ? I can't claim to understand
even half of the details here.

What I can say, is reading the product reviews is important. I have
seen cases, for the 5 meter products, where the product fails when
you concatenate them. So check the reviews, and if you see lots of
complaints, it could be the +5V and GND wires are too thin in
the cable.

HTH,
Paul

 

[DevilsPGD]

In the last episode of

I can't tell for sure, but I had the impression he was talking
about a simple unpowered extension cable.

It depends on the unit he's looking at, I've seen some going both
routes.

What's the difference between your "extender" and your "active
repeater"? The only difference I can guess is that your "extender"
does not include a buffer. In that case, it would not regenerate
the signal.

Something labeled as an "extender" might be a passive cable or might be
an active repeater (which is pretty much just a 1-port USB hub)