UPS in blackouts

W

westom1

"never test a ups by just unplugging it, you need to keep it
grounded so go plug it in to a switched outlet to test or use the
circuit breaker"

Lawyers will write all kinds of precautions. Meanwhile, John Doe
ignores the so many UPSes only plugged into two wire receptacles -
without any safety ground. How can this be if death will result due
to no safety ground? Myths are alive and well.

Best test of a UPS is to disconnect its plug from AC mains. Any
computer that stops working (due to no AC power or due to no safety
ground) has identified a 100% defective UPS. Best it to also ignore
reposts by those who don't even understand what they are quoting.
Pull the UPS power plug. If computer crashes, then UPS is defective.
Quotes from lawyers can ignored since the world is not full of dead
people using UPSes on two wire (no safety ground) receptacles. A
difference between multiple posters who have technical knowledge
verses one who does not.
 
S

spodosaurus

John said:
"It is not safe to test a UPS by disconnecting the power at the
receptical. The reason is that you also lose your ground, which
means the entire system can float above ground.

Float above ground??? Holy shit dude I have to try this!





--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
 
J

John Doe

Lawyers will write all kinds of precautions. Meanwhile, John Doe
ignores the so many UPSes only plugged into two wire receptacles -
without any safety ground. How can this be if death will result due
to no safety ground? Myths are alive and well.

Unfortunately, so are reckless babbling morons like you, Tom.

Ten out of ten results in the following search say you should not
pull the plug of a UPS. Leave it plugged in and use a circuit
breaker.

http://search.yahoo.com/
"test a UPS by"

"Most UPS manufacturers suggest that you not test a UPS by pulling
the plug from the wall"

"don't test a UPS by unplugging it from the wall"

"It is not safe to test a UPS by disconnecting the power at the
receptical. The reason is that you also lose your ground, which
means the entire system can float above ground. If it is connected
to other equipment like a router, etc, then those components can
experience a common mode voltage"

"never test a ups by just unplugging it, you need to keep it
grounded so go plug it in to a switched outlet to test or use the
circuit breaker"

"I had a client test a UPS by pulling the UPS power plug from the
wall - and at that instant everything crashed. I don't recall
if we lost hardware on that one"

"DO NOT test a UPS by pulling the plug from the wall. This is
dangerous (creates a "floating ground" shock hazard), and its bad
for electronic devices"

"You are not supposed to test a UPS by unplugging it since you have
then removed the ground"

"This incident shows why you should never test a UPS by pulling the
utility power cord"

"Never test a UPS by pulling its power cord or the local network
wire will float above ground and you might fry the router and
everyone's NIC"
 
G

Guest

Lawyers will write all kinds of precautions. Meanwhile, John Doe
ignores the so many UPSes only plugged into two wire receptacles -
without any safety ground. How can this be if death will result due
to no safety ground? Myths are alive and well.

Best test of a UPS is to disconnect its plug from AC mains. Any
computer that stops working (due to no AC power or due to no safety
ground) has identified a 100% defective UPS. Best it to also ignore
reposts by those who don't even understand what they are quoting.
Pull the UPS power plug. If computer crashes, then UPS is defective.
Quotes from lawyers can ignored since the world is not full of dead
people using UPSes on two wire (no safety ground) receptacles. A
difference between multiple posters who have technical knowledge
verses one who does not.

I wouldn't do that without first unplugging the power to every device
not plugged into the UPS, including any modems, because an UPS not
connected to a household AC outlet can have 60VAC between the UPS
ground and the neutral instead of the usual 0VAC.
 
B

bud--

geoff said:
I can tell you exactly how it works, APC sells a lot of UPS's, since they
specialize in this, and to claim it meets a UL spec when it does not, opens
the company up to major lawsuits should there be an incident.

In fact, it would be pretty stupid for a major UPS company to falsly
advertise their product, meaning, they claim the product meets a UL spec
when in fact it does not and they never tested it for that. APC would have
been out of business a long time ago.

They may test for part of the spec. It would be real hard for an user to
tell if part of the test was missing. They may also fully comply. Why
don't they just get surge listing?

APC is a major brand. A lot of people in newsgroups recommend them. I
still want a UL1449 listing and wouldn't buy APC unless it had one.

Because high ratings are easy to get, I would actually rather get a high
rated plug-in suppressor and plug a UPS into it. I would then rather the
UPS had no surge rating. (UPSs with high ratings are harder to find than
plug-in suppressors.)
I went to the ACE Hardware (a reputable store) website and typed in 'surge
protector' and they sell a protector made by Power Squid. I went to their
website and they do not even mention being UL listed (nor meets a UL spec),
etc. for any of their products.

http://www.powersquid.com/surge-protectors-and-ups-c-74.html

You said you do not trust a UPS since they do not meet 1449 but in this
case, it is the surge protector that makes no mention of meeting a UL
standard.

I next went to Lowe's Home Improvement (a reputable store) website and typed
in surge protector. They sell protectors made by Prime. I went to Prime's
website and no mention of UL at all for their surge protection products.

http://www.primewirecable.com/surge8.aspx?CatSubID=87

I have heard of Power Squid, not Prime. I would have guessed Squid was
listed but wouldn't be surprised if both were not. On the other hand
they might be. These days manufacturers, IMHO, are putting out less and
less useful information. But there is a lot of crap around.

In addition to UL1449, I want a major brand name for a suppressor. For
me, neither of these is (but APC is).

I next looked at Belkin, a reputable company, and found surge protectors
that mention UL.

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatSectionView.process?Section_Id=207100

I went to the UL website and looked up their name. UL lists their products
but not as 'UL 1449 certified'.

[For UL the magic word is "UL listed".]
Their chart says:

'These products have been tested to verify that transient voltage surges are
limited to the maximum applitudes specified by the manufacturer.'

That is, I presume, the 330V for most of the suppressors in the table.
330V is one of the let-through voltage ratings in the UL test.
(Equipment typically has an immunity level more like 800V.)

Thanks for the last link in particular. I don't see anything that
indicates Belden suppressors aren't UL1449 listed.

The 2 plug-in suppressors I am using are Belden. The boxes indicated
UL1449 listing. The suppressors have UL labels. I know that UL is
extremely protective of the use of its labels.
 
G

geoff

Thanks for the last link in particular. I don't see anything that
indicates Belden suppressors aren't UL1449 listed.

Lol, normally the way it works is a product is listed if it is certified.
If UL had to start listing everyone that was not certified for 1449, that
would be a long list indeed and probably incorrect.

In the case of Belkin, the 'UL Listed' means they checked what the
manufacturer said, nothing more, no 1449 certification.

.. . . and the places where the majority of people shop have equipment that
is not 1449 certified, maybe some are UL listed, but that does not
necessarily mean 1449 certified.

--g
 
W

westom1

Not sure where you buy your UPS's but mine is an APC, and their website
says, for my model, on the surge protection capabilities:
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE750G
'Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 5% IEEE surge let-through : zero
clamping response time : meets UL 1449'
. . . however, if someone is going to buy a UPS made by the 'billy-bob
company' (ie not a UPS company) then I doubt the UPS would meet UL1449.  I
also doubt their surge supressor would either.

UL1449 says nothing about surge protection. As featured in 1986 and
1987 issues of PC Magazine, power strip protectors would create a fire
risk. UL1449 does not even care if the protector circuits provide
protection. Protector must not create threats to human safety when UL
applies simulated surges..

Those protector circuits can even completely fail - which means no
surge protection - and still get UL1449 approval. This fusing makes
it easier for plug-in protector manufacturers to grossly undersized
their products. An in-line fuse in the protector circuit (that also
does not disconnect the load) means even a trivial surge causes
protector failure. Then the naive will assume, "My protector
sacrificed itself to protect my computer."

Effective protector circuits must remains functional after every
surge.

UPSes use the same circuit found in power strip protectors. But
even smaller. For example 480 joules is near zero protection. But
just enough so that the manufacturer can claim a subjective "surge
protection" on sales brochures. Notice no spec lists each type of
surge and protection from that surge in numbers. Even the manufacture
specs do not claim surge protection. The UPS does protection (albeit
pathetically small) from one type of surge ... that typically causes
no damage. It does not protect from the typically destructive type of
surge. So it does not claim to protect from any surge.

No problem. Near zero joules is sufficient to claim surge
protection. UL1449 can imply Underwriters Laboratory rates the surge
protection. Thermal fuse that disconnects those grossly undersized
protectors faster gets the naive to recommend more protectors.

What is always necessary for protecton? A short connection to
single point earth ground. UPS does not have one. So UPS
manufacturere just forgets to mention earthing. No earth ground means
no effective protection - which explains why the specs make no
protection claims.

Well is does discuss "multi-pole noise filtering". So that filter
stops or absorbs surges? Of course not. Protection stops or absorbs
what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. So why does the
section on surge protection discuss filtering? They hope you will
believe it somehow stops or absorbs surges - stops what three miles of
sky could not.

Will those 480 joules inside a UPS (far fewer ever get used) absorb
the tens or hundreds of thousands of joules in a surge? That is what
a plug-in protector promoter says.

An effective protector connects that energy short (ie less than 10
feet) to earth ground. Surge energy must be dissipated somewhere.
UPS has nothing to absorb or stop surges, but uses half truth to
promote a near zero protector circuit as surge protection.

Your telco connects to overhead wires all over town. Their computer
is exposed to typically 100 surges during every thunderstorm. Why are
you never without telephone service for four days while they replace
that computer? Because telcos never use plug-in power strip or UPS
protectors. Telco always uses the effective solution - a 'whole
house' type protector connects every incoming wire in every cable
short to earth ground. Why does it work for 100 surges in every
thunderstorm? Because each surge is dissipated in earth - does not
enterd the Central Office (CO). Effective protection always means
surges are dissipated in earth. Effective protection is routine where
plug-in protectors are not used.

These scary pictures remain a problem even with protectors that meet
UL1449. Bud will again post his usual half truths to deny it. But
most every fire department still sees these problem even after UL1449
reduced the threat:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
 
T

thanatoid

"Never test a UPS by pulling its power cord or the local
network wire will float above ground and you might fry the
router and everyone's NIC"

Nice of MS to actually allow us great unwashed to copy and
paste, huh ;-) ? Now if one could only print a directory's
contents without a 3rd party app...
 
T

thanatoid

"Never test a UPS by pulling its power cord or the local
network wire will float above ground and you might fry the
router and everyone's NIC"

Is it OK if you pull the power cord by its plug? ;-)

Whatever. I do it once every time I buy a new UPS and that's how
I know it works (or not).

I am not an electrician but as I see it a UPS is designed to
work in /emergency/ situations. This may include unexpected loss
of ground in the room, building, or a given 10 sq mile area due
to acts of Fubar.

Also, installing a UPS on a fully functioning network of
whatever size and THEN wondering whether it will actually work
is a philosophy which leaves something to be desired.

BTW, ever notice how /every single/ piece of electronic
equipment which uses batteries or AC adapters tells you to use
only /their own brand/ or horrible consequences may follow? Do
you follow that advice as well? What's funny is when you get a
new piece of equipment and the battery is NOT their own brand!
 
J

John Doe

thanatoid said:
John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote

Is it OK if you pull the power cord by its plug? ;-)

Whatever. I do it once every time I buy a new UPS and that's how
I know it works (or not).

I am not an electrician but as I see it a UPS is designed to
work in /emergency/ situations. This may include unexpected loss
of ground in the room, building, or a given 10 sq mile area due
to acts of Fubar.

Also, installing a UPS on a fully functioning network of
whatever size and THEN wondering whether it will actually work
is a philosophy which leaves something to be desired.

The clue-by-four I'm hitting you with isn't big enough, Diana?

Ten out of ten results in the following search say you should not
pull the plug of a UPS. Leave it plugged in and use a circuit
breaker.

http://search.yahoo.com/
"test a UPS by"

"Most UPS manufacturers suggest that you not test a UPS by pulling
the plug from the wall"

"don't test a UPS by unplugging it from the wall"

"It is not safe to test a UPS by disconnecting the power at the
receptical. The reason is that you also lose your ground, which
means the entire system can float above ground. If it is connected
to other equipment like a router, etc, then those components can
experience a common mode voltage"

"never test a ups by just unplugging it, you need to keep it
grounded so go plug it in to a switched outlet to test or use the
circuit breaker"

"I had a client test a UPS by pulling the UPS power plug from the
wall - and at that instant everything crashed. I don't recall
if we lost hardware on that one"

"DO NOT test a UPS by pulling the plug from the wall. This is
dangerous (creates a "floating ground" shock hazard), and its bad
for electronic devices"

"You are not supposed to test a UPS by unplugging it since you have
then removed the ground"

"This incident shows why you should never test a UPS by pulling the
utility power cord"

"Never test a UPS by pulling its power cord or the local network
wire will float above ground and you might fry the router and
everyone's NIC"
 
T

thanatoid

The clue-by-four I'm hitting you with isn't big enough,
Diana?

Ten out of ten results in the following search say you
should not pull the plug of a UPS. Leave it plugged in and
use a circuit breaker.

http://search.yahoo.com/
"test a UPS by"

<SNIP>

1. My name is not Diana.
2. Ten out of ten people have been known to be wrong.
3. You need a sense of humor and a life.
 
J

John Doe

thanatoid said:
<SNIP>

1. My name is not Diana.
2. Ten out of ten people have been known to be wrong.

How many times do you need to be slapped upside the head with a clue-
by-four, Dino?
3. You need a sense of humor and a life.

If you weren't just a troll, Dino, your opinion might be worth
something.

Ten out of ten results in the following search say you should not
pull the plug of a UPS. Leave it plugged in and use a circuit
breaker.

http://search.yahoo.com/
"test a UPS by"

"Most UPS manufacturers suggest that you not test a UPS by pulling
the plug from the wall"

"don't test a UPS by unplugging it from the wall"

"It is not safe to test a UPS by disconnecting the power at the
receptical. The reason is that you also lose your ground, which
means the entire system can float above ground. If it is connected
to other equipment like a router, etc, then those components can
experience a common mode voltage"

"never test a ups by just unplugging it, you need to keep it
grounded so go plug it in to a switched outlet to test or use the
circuit breaker"

"I had a client test a UPS by pulling the UPS power plug from the
wall - and at that instant everything crashed. I don't recall
if we lost hardware on that one"

"DO NOT test a UPS by pulling the plug from the wall. This is
dangerous (creates a "floating ground" shock hazard), and its bad
for electronic devices"

"You are not supposed to test a UPS by unplugging it since you have
then removed the ground"

"This incident shows why you should never test a UPS by pulling the
utility power cord"

"Never test a UPS by pulling its power cord or the local network
wire will float above ground and you might fry the router and
everyone's NIC"
 
B

bud--

UL1449 says nothing about surge protection.

UL1449 is all about surge protection.
As featured in 1986 and
1987 issues of PC Magazine, power strip protectors would create a fire
risk.

Wow- a 22 year old magazine article.

Effective in 1998 UL listed suppressors had to have thermal disconnects
to disconnect overheating MOVs. Overheating was fixed over 10 years ago.
UL1449 does not even care if the protector circuits provide
protection.

To pass UL1449 suppressors have to provide significant surge protection
and not fail.
Those protector circuits can even completely fail - which means no
surge protection - and still get UL1449 approval.

They can fail (safely) in some of the later steps of the UL test. Before
that, they have to successfully provide surge suppression, limiting the
voltage that can get through, and not fail.
An in-line fuse in the protector circuit (that also
does not disconnect the load) means even a trivial surge causes
protector failure. Then the naive will assume, "My protector
sacrificed itself to protect my computer."

The IEEE guide explains at length, for anyone who can read, that the
protected load can be connected across the MOVs (protective elements)
and be disconnected when they are, or connected across the incoming
line. In the former case the protected load will be protected even when
the suppressor fails. It is how a competent manufacturer is likely to
wire the suppressor. And it is one reason why some suppressors have a
protected equipment warrantee.
For example 480 joules is near zero protection.

Repeating:
François Martzloff was the NIST guru on surges. He wrote the NIST guide
as well as many technical papers. One of the technical papers looked at
the energy that reaches a plug-in suppressor with no service panel surge
suppressor. The maximum energy dissipated was 35 Joules. In 13 of 15
cases it was 1 Joule or less. That was with power line surges from 2,000
to 10,000A (the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring).

Compare 35J with w’s 480J (although I would rather see higher ratings).
Notice no spec lists each type of
surge and protection from that surge in numbers.

"Each type of surge" is more drivel.
Even the manufacture
specs do not claim surge protection.

w could google for specs but the institution only lets w look at
newsgroups - the internet has dirty pictures.
What is always necessary for protecton? A short connection to
single point earth ground.
No earth ground means
no effective protection

The required statements of religious belief in earthing.

Unfortunately for w, the IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work
by clamping the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the
suppressor. They do not work primarily by earthing.

If w had minimal intelligence he could learn from his own links. The
hanford link is about "some older model" power strips and says
overheating was fixed with a revision to UL1449 that required thermal
disconnects. That was 1998. There is no reason to believe, from any of
these links, that there is a problem with suppressors produced under the
UL standard that has been in effect since 1998. None of the links even
said a damaged suppressor had a UL label.

But with no valid technical arguments all w_ has is pathetic scare tactics.


For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

There are 98,615,938 other web sites, including 13,843,032 by lunatics,
and w_ can't find another lunatic that agrees with him that plug-in
suppressors are NOT effective. All you have are w's opinions based on
his religious belief in earthing.


And never seen - answers to simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
 
B

bud--

geoff said:
Lol, normally the way it works is a product is listed if it is certified.

Certified? By a manufacturer?

A product is "UL listed" *only* if it has been tested by UL and meets UL
standards (and there is ongoing follow-up activity).
If UL had to start listing everyone that was not certified for 1449, that
would be a long list indeed and probably incorrect.

UL only identifies equipment that is "UL listed". The only possibilities
are "UL listed" and not "UL listed".

It would help if you confined "listing, listed,..." to "UL listed".

"Certified" has no meaning in relation to UL.
In the case of Belkin, the 'UL Listed' means they checked what the
manufacturer said, nothing more, no 1449 certification.

"UL listing" has nothing to do with what a manufacturer says. It is "UL
listed" only if it has been tested by UL and passed the tests.

UL does not "certify" anything. [They also don't "approve" anything.]

Why would UL have information on Belkin on their UL site if Belkin did
not meet UL standards?
The point of the UL site is so people (particularly inspectors) can
determine if a device is "UL listed". They certainly wouldn't have
equipment that is not "UL listed".

As I said in my last post, the 2 Belkin suppressors I am using said they
were UL1449 listed and the suppressors had UL labels. As I also said UL
is extremely protective of the use of UL labels and claims of UL
listing. I see no possibility that Belkin suppressors that claim to be
listed under UL1449 aren't.
 
T

thanatoid

How many times do you need to be slapped upside the head
with a clue- by-four, Dino?

My name is not Dino.
If you weren't just a troll, Dino, your opinion might be
worth something.

I am not a troll and I do not claim my opinions are worth
anything.
Ten out of ten results in the following search say you
should not pull the plug of a UPS. Leave it plugged in and
use a circuit breaker.

<SNIP>

Not AGAIN? /ya-aawn/ Don't you ever just get bored?
 
G

geoff

As I said in my last post, the 2 Belkin suppressors I am using said they
were UL1449 listed and the suppressors had UL labels. As I also said UL is
extremely protective of the use of UL labels and claims of UL listing. I
see no possibility that Belkin suppressors that claim to be listed under
UL1449 aren't.

Model number of the suppressors you are talking about?

--g
 
D

DevilsPGD

In message <[email protected]> thanatoid
Nice of MS to actually allow us great unwashed to copy and
paste, huh ;-) ? Now if one could only print a directory's
contents without a 3rd party app...

That one has only been around since the 80s...

"dir > lpt1:"

or if you use a USB or networked printer that isn't at LPT1,
then "dir > filelist.txt&notepad filelist.txt" then print.
 
W

westom1

UL1449 is all about surge protection.

Everything from UL is about human safety. Surge protection is not
about human safety. UL also lists vacuum cleaners. According to
Bud's logic, that other UL standard must also be about vacuum cleaner
performance?

Both vacuum and protector have a UL rating. Neither rates the
performance of vacuum cleaners or surge protectors as Bud would have
us believe.

Bud promotes plug-in protectors. Being honest would put profits at
risk. Bud would have us believe UL1449 was created in 1998. UL1449
was created 28 Aug 1985. Fire remains a problem. So UL created a
updated version. But still a fire risk exists as demonstrated by
pictures from fire departments AND even by a NC Fire Marshall. If Bud
admits to the problem in these scary pictures, then profits are at
risk:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm

A protector can even fail during UL testing and still obtain UL
approval. UL is not testing for protector effectiveness. UL1449 is
testing for threats to human safety - ie fire. If it completely fails
and does not emit sparks and flames, then the protector can get UL1449
2nd edition approval. UL1449 does not rate surge protection. A
protector can even fail and get approved. UL1449 is about fire
protection.

Bud routinely posts half facts. For example, Bud cites François
Martzloff while forgetting what Martzloff says about plug-in (point of
connection) protectors. First conclusion in Marzloff's IEEE paper (on
the Upside Down house) says:
Conclusion:
1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly
show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur
even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are
present at the point of connection of appliances.

Yes, plug-in protectors may even contribute to damage of the
adjacent appliance as Martzloff says. Bud's IEEE guide further
demonstrates that problem with unearthed protectors. Page 42 (of 61
pages) Figure 8 shows a protector earthing a surge 8000 volts
destructively through the adjacent TV. A protector without that short
connection to earth must earth that surge destructively inside the
building. As Martzloff also said, a plug-in protector can even
contribute to damage of adjacent appliances.

No protector absorbs or stops surge energy as Bud claims. An
effective protector connects where wires enter the building. An
effective energy earths surges before that energy enters the building
- ie 'whole house' protector. Or an ineffective protector promoted
by Bud is adjacent to the appliance - dissipating 8000 volts
destructively through an adjacent TV.

If Bud was honest, then Bud posts manufacturer specs for his surge
protection. No plug-in protector manufacturer claims such protection.
A sales promoter could easily post those specs if those specs
existed. Bud refuses to post specs for one simple reason. No plug-in
manufacturer claims such protection.

Same circuit is also in an APC UPS. Above posted specs only discuss
filtering. Specs make no claim of surge protection. Bud will post
anything to avoid the challenge. So Bud, where are those manufacture
specs that define surge protection? No specs make that claim.

Effective protectors mean surge energy gets dissipated harmlessly in
earth. No wonder telcos do not waste money on plug-in protectors.
Bud also forgets to admit that. Why is every telco computer not
damaged by 100 surges during every thunderstorm? Because telcos use a
significantly less expensive and far more effective 'whole house'
protector. Telcos also understand that plug-in protector may even
contribute to appliance damage.

Myth purveyors and retail store salesman who recommend ineffective
protector are numerous. However the IEEE only makes recommendation
in standards. Numerous IEEE standards are quite blunt about what
provides surge protection - and that is not Bud's protectors. From
IEEE Standard 141 (Red Book):
In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the
process of interception of lightning produced surges,
diverting them to ground, and by altering their
associated wave shapes.

Or IEEE Emerald Book:
It is important to ensure that low-impedance grounding and
bonding connections exist among the telephone and data
equipment, the ac power system's electrical safety-grounding
system, and the building grounding electrode system. ...

Or IEEE Green Book on 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or
diverted to a path which will, if well designed and constructed,
not result in damage. Even this means is not positive,
providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct
strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
6000 years ...

Why does Bud not provide such numbers for protection? Plug-in
protector manufacturers will not even claim such protection in their
spec sheets. Why did Bud forget to quote from IEEE Standards? That
would put profits at risk. Bud is not honest about why he is posting
half truths.

Eventually Bud will resort to disparaging remarks and other
insults. He does this when the half truths in his every claim are
exposed. Expect Bud to do here what Bud always does - post personal
insults because Bud cannot even provide a single plug-in manufacturer
specification that claims protection from typically destructive
surges.
 
T

thanatoid

In message <[email protected]> thanatoid


That one has only been around since the 80s...

"dir > lpt1:"

or if you use a USB or networked printer that isn't at LPT1,
then "dir > filelist.txt&notepad filelist.txt" then print.

I have brought this up /so many/ times that I am beginning to
forget to say /IN WINDOWS/.

OF COURSE you can do it in DOS. But that was not what I was
asking, my apologies for not making it clearer.

DOS box/command line from within Windows does not count either.
WINDOWS. Nothing else. No DOS, no add-ons, no plug-ins, no other
apps.

(It's never occurred to me, but I suppose one /could/ argue that
DOS is a third party app, or point out that most Windows OS's
were just very bloated DOS apps, but let's just pretend that DOS
and Windows came out of one garage but that Windows knows
nothing about DOS.)
 

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