R
Rob Morley
Can you repeat that in English please?"kony" said:
R
Rob Morley
You equalise potential by touching the component to the case _before_"kony" said:
removing it from its anti-static packaging.
K
kony
Previously you had not made clear that part was in anti-static
packaging. If part were not in packaging, and at different
potential than case, then "touchinging" it to the chassis could
only equalize potential if it caused the exact situation we
wished to avoid, having flow through that part.
R
Rob Morley
"kony" said:
I did say that in another post in this thread a couple of days ago.
Precisely
C
Cyde Weys
Parish wrote:
That's funny: I typed eight first, but corrected it before I posted.
Telepathic transmission of mispellings ...
B
Bob
I had hoped to allow you the opportunity of avoiding the embarrassment of
defending a ridiculous proposition.
My solution works all of the time. You propose buying a humidifier that
would certainly cost ten times my solution. How exactly would you ionize
the air? Anti-static treatments for carpets would cost even more money.
In any event, such products have been banned in the U.S.A for many years.
This is not a contest. It should be a discussion. Your position is
untenable. Let it go. Move on with your life.
K
kony
Then get your head out of the clouds, what I wrote was correct
though a bit awkwardly worded.
Your solution is fine, I never wrote that there is any problem
using a grounding strap. Perhaps reading for comprehension isn't
your forte?
I listed several methods of static reduction, which are known to
be effective but they were never mentioned as alternatives to a
grounding strap. The grounding strap has two primary failings,
that it is likely to be disconnected at some point, and that it
does not provide any protection against anyone other than person
wearing it. Redundancy is not always needed but is certainly a
good thing if, as I wrote, the particular environment is prone to
static. Ideally assembly should not be done in such an
environment at all.
Which such products are banned in the US?
Anti-static treaments, humidifiers, and ionizers are certainly
not banned in the US. I am NOT claiming everyone should go out
and buy these things for single-system build though, but to be
technically correct, it isn't wise to just put a ground strap
next to a desk if the entire area is hazardous.
LOL, wake up on the wrong side of the bed today?
J
JAD
<Er, how do you alter the environment? Obviously, I do not expect a
reply>
there is a thing just invented called Air conditioning. Swap
cooler(evaps) condition the air, and you would be hard pressed to
create static while that's on.
reply>
there is a thing just invented called Air conditioning. Swap
cooler(evaps) condition the air, and you would be hard pressed to
create static while that's on.
J
Johannes H Andersen
DaveW said:
Yes, this is because the front switch is not a mains switch, the switch
sends a signal to the PSU. In an ATX PSU all the live mains voltage is
confined to the PSU box, hence it is safe to work on the computer with
the power cord plugged in. (Not so for an AT PSU)
The recommendation from Crucial is to keep the power cord in place when
fitting their memory modules, that will establish the ground potential
for the system and avoid differences in potential, provided the operator
has been discharged to ground.
J
JAD
<,The recommendation from Crucial is to keep the power cord in place
when>
your nuts and so is crucial (if in fact that's what they said).....
power cord in, with power running to it and no switch on the PSU means
power to the memory and to the PCI slots, plugging a mod in when this
is the scenario will bust that mod.
Unplugged with a grounded metal strip on the bench where you would, if
you were inclined to, attach a anti-static bands clip to. I haven't
worn a ASWB for years now.....never lost a component yet. But then I
don't work in a carpeted, dry environment, on top of a metal table
with a plastic top. ;^)
"Johannes H Andersen" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
when>
your nuts and so is crucial (if in fact that's what they said).....
power cord in, with power running to it and no switch on the PSU means
power to the memory and to the PCI slots, plugging a mod in when this
is the scenario will bust that mod.
Unplugged with a grounded metal strip on the bench where you would, if
you were inclined to, attach a anti-static bands clip to. I haven't
worn a ASWB for years now.....never lost a component yet. But then I
don't work in a carpeted, dry environment, on top of a metal table
with a plastic top. ;^)
"Johannes H Andersen" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
J
JAD
SWAMP*
JAD said:
J
Johannes H Andersen
JAD said:
Obviously the PSU is in OFF state, hence no power to motherboard at all.
The front switch may be connected to the motherboard, but all it does
is connecting/disconnecting two wires that comes out of the PSU, this
signalling the PSU to go ON/OFF. So no nuts today I'm afraid.
Yup, as long as everything is grounded.
J
JAD
<Obviously the PSU is in OFF state, >
JHA,
some... and from what I've seen lately there are about 2/3 of PSU's
out there with NO on/off switch. Whether this is a Old Vs New ATX, I
couldn't tell you what the standards call for, but if you leave these
plugged in your gonna have problems. I realize that the front
switch(non at) is merely a short/voltage drop type switch.
"Johannes H Andersen" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
JHA,
some... and from what I've seen lately there are about 2/3 of PSU's
out there with NO on/off switch. Whether this is a Old Vs New ATX, I
couldn't tell you what the standards call for, but if you leave these
plugged in your gonna have problems. I realize that the front
switch(non at) is merely a short/voltage drop type switch.
"Johannes H Andersen" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
S
Stuffed
Hmmm, I often drop bits in and out of my PC iwth it plugged in, and on on
the mains and switch on the back (although obviously off on the front case
switch). True, it's not clever, but I'm very forgetful. And so far, the
number of things I've made go pop as a result of this?
Absolutely bugger all.
Note, I'm not advising people to go fitting things with power running
through the mobo, just commenting my experience has been it isn't a problem.
J
JAD
your MB is of a 'newer' variety? lets say within 2 years of age? and
has the LED's lit when your doing this? Well, even I will concede my
lucky streak to that. By the typical scenario, if you were to do this,
the machine should/will jump to an ON state, with boards that support
wake on 'anything', enabled or not. Not all boards have the support,
Dell ,gateways (non commercial), usually did not have this option in
the BIOS. The last one I made that mistake on was a PIII asus P3V4X,
jumped on and spooked the heck out of me. Although there was no
obvious damage, the modem that I did this with died prematurely. YMMV
obviously, but I would say in your case, the option is not present on
your board, or has the option to be 'shut off' from within the bios.
has the LED's lit when your doing this? Well, even I will concede my
lucky streak to that. By the typical scenario, if you were to do this,
the machine should/will jump to an ON state, with boards that support
wake on 'anything', enabled or not. Not all boards have the support,
Dell ,gateways (non commercial), usually did not have this option in
the BIOS. The last one I made that mistake on was a PIII asus P3V4X,
jumped on and spooked the heck out of me. Although there was no
obvious damage, the modem that I did this with died prematurely. YMMV
obviously, but I would say in your case, the option is not present on
your board, or has the option to be 'shut off' from within the bios.
S
Stuffed
JAD said:
Actually, my board is an MSI KT4A, bought new a couple of months ago, but at
least 18 months old design I suppose. It has an LED as far as I remember,
but it's certainly not on when I'm inside the case. My other board is a
Chaintech 7AJA2, about three years old now, that certainly has an LED, but
once again, not on when it's off at the front switch. So maybe I've just got
more impatinet friendly kit then?
Thinking about it, I do seem to recall having a play with one of the other
boxes I've got, and that fired up when I was doing something or other I
think. Would've been an old socket 370 machine. At the time I put it down to
me catching the switch whilst piddling about.
I've recently played with around 30 untested PCs I'm trying to sort out for
people, myself, charity, etc, and at a guess around half have been plugged
in while I've been swapping stuff. And the only dead ones have been dead
from the start, apart from one that tested fine, then when I quickly
retested it blew the top off a cap with a flash and a loud bang. Was resting
on my lap at the time, quite a novel experience!
M
Michael Salem
There has been a lot of comment here to the effect that you need to
chain yourself to your work before daring to let thoughts of opening the
carton containing memory, cards, etc. OK, I exaggerate; and I do agree
that precautions should be taken against static, and machines totally
powered down before plugging things in. The danger is not just of
totally destroying things (not too serious, just replace), but of
causing more subtle damage which doesn't show up immediately.
But we've all seen fairly careless handling of bare electronics, and
working on the innards of plugged-in ATX machines, with little trouble.
I am reminded of the book, years ago, about the development of a new DEC
machine ("The birth of a new machine" or something similar). There was a
desperate rush on, and everyone regularly plugged in and removed
ordinary DIL chips with no precautions. While CMOS chips may be more
static-sensitive than TTL, I don't know whether they are more vulnerable
to plugging in like this. My own experience is only of removing and
inserting PC BIOS chips into running machines (after a failed BIOS
reprogramming); never any trouble.
And there is a PCI standard designed to allow specially designed cards
to be plugged in and removed from a running machine (24/7/365.25 server,
typically).
I don't want to take the risk, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to
find that (un)plugging ordinary PCI cards live, and other things, are
only slightly hazardous.
On the other hand, I have heard of PC motherboards that were blown by
plugging in a keyboard (DIM connector).
I'm not advocating that these things should be done, but don't feel that
you have necessarily caused irreversible damage if you make a mistake.
Best wishes,
chain yourself to your work before daring to let thoughts of opening the
carton containing memory, cards, etc. OK, I exaggerate; and I do agree
that precautions should be taken against static, and machines totally
powered down before plugging things in. The danger is not just of
totally destroying things (not too serious, just replace), but of
causing more subtle damage which doesn't show up immediately.
But we've all seen fairly careless handling of bare electronics, and
working on the innards of plugged-in ATX machines, with little trouble.
I am reminded of the book, years ago, about the development of a new DEC
machine ("The birth of a new machine" or something similar). There was a
desperate rush on, and everyone regularly plugged in and removed
ordinary DIL chips with no precautions. While CMOS chips may be more
static-sensitive than TTL, I don't know whether they are more vulnerable
to plugging in like this. My own experience is only of removing and
inserting PC BIOS chips into running machines (after a failed BIOS
reprogramming); never any trouble.
And there is a PCI standard designed to allow specially designed cards
to be plugged in and removed from a running machine (24/7/365.25 server,
typically).
I don't want to take the risk, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to
find that (un)plugging ordinary PCI cards live, and other things, are
only slightly hazardous.
On the other hand, I have heard of PC motherboards that were blown by
plugging in a keyboard (DIM connector).
I'm not advocating that these things should be done, but don't feel that
you have necessarily caused irreversible damage if you make a mistake.
Best wishes,
M
Michael Salem
Johannes said:
We have basically two statements "when power switch is off, power gets
to circuitry" and "no it doesn't".
Some power, at least. must be supplied, as computers support wake-up on
LAN, on modem, at a specified time, etc. On the other hand, this is not
normal full power, and is, as far as I know, unlikely to cause damage
under most circumstances.
Best wishes,
T
Tim Auton
JAD said:
Power to PCI slots perhaps, but why power to RAM? Not unless you're in
suspend.
Tim
D
David Maynard
Johannes said:
Unfortunately, your 'hence' is simply not true. When in the "OFF state" an
ATX PSU is still providing standby voltages to the motherboard, unless you
pull the plug or have a mains switch on the PSU itself.
Ever wonder how it could 'signal' the PSU to come ON if there were no power
for it to do the 'signaling' with?