Two "expert" issues I must solve before upgading

[Sharon F]

No - you had it right the first time - I'm restoring all the files to it
when it is a slave on the 2nd system. (where I have a working O/S and
restore program)

Really? That will teach to me to read in a hurry between appointments.
Okay, then. I'll stand by my earlier response. The hardware control is
tighter in XP - not due to WPA so much as the design of the operating
system. XP does not take kindly to being bounced around from one set of
hardware to another. Because of this, it's not unusual to have to do a
repair install to accommodate a major change of hardware - even in the same
box. (Incidentally, more is involved in WPA than cpu and motherboard. See
this article for a good explanation:http://www.aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.htm)

I mentioned before about using Image for Windows. I image my Windows
partition (C which also contains my most critical programs (ones that I
have to have up and running). At the moment that image runs about 3.5 GB
and fits neatly on a single DVD. The DVD is bootable and it is all that is
needed to restore the image. No need for a second computer.

I keep my other programs on another partition and data on a completely
different drive. These things get backed up regularly instead of imaged.
Just plain old backup for these - ntbackup in fact.

Early in August, I was checking into something for a friend and noticed a
S.M.A.R.T. warning in Event Viewer about imminent failure predicted for my
primary disk. Ran the manufacturer's diagnostic tools and it was confirmed.
In under an 90 minutes, I went to the store, bought a new drive, installed
it and then used my image to get Windows up and running again. I probably
could have done it in less time but I got sidetracked looking at all the PC
goodies at the store.

I've restored Windows using many different methods through the years. I
never bothered with imaging until XP. Now I wish I had looked into it a
long time ago.

 

[Jeff W]

Hi Sharon - what you describe below is exactly what I want to do (It's
wonderful to find someone who thinks like I do, ummm, other than my wife
of course 8-}), except that I want to keep the images on a hard disk on
another machine (prmarily so they can be generated unattended).

I'm sorry, but I still don't get your point about WPA because,
although I'm -restoring- the disk using a different PC, I'm -booting-
off it only on the original PC. If XP doesn't like being moved to
another hard disk and then being re-booted in an otherwise identical
computer, then I'm hosed no matter what I do because the original disk
is dead. Otherwise, let me try to describe it again...

On PC #1 - I perform full (image), and incremental (NTBACKUP) backups,
I -store- them on PC #2

when the disk on PC #1 crashes... I
1) add and format a new disk to PC #2
2) On PC #2, do an image restore to the new disk
3) move the new disk from PC #2 to PC #1
4) boot.
5) Do the NTBACKUP incremental restores to the new disk

Where does WPA come into play here?

Also - are you happy with IFW? Did you have to provide them with
information from your PC to get a paid copy? (I try to avoid
over-enthusiastic copy-protection schemes - WPA is the main reason I
waited so long to upgrade - I do things honestly and the schemes are
just so often a burden - as I'm finding out in this thread 8-})
thanks!
/j

 

[Sharon F]

On PC #1 - I perform full (image), and incremental (NTBACKUP) backups,
I -store- them on PC #2

when the disk on PC #1 crashes... I
1) add and format a new disk to PC #2
2) On PC #2, do an image restore to the new disk
3) move the new disk from PC #2 to PC #1
4) boot.
5) Do the NTBACKUP incremental restores to the new disk

Change the plan to
1) add and format a new disk on PC #1: use the disk prep tools on the XP
setup CD. Once the drive is prepared, cancel setup.
2) Restore image over the network from PC #2 (most imaging programs support
restoring over the network)
3) N/A
4) boot
5) Handle your data backups using your preferred method/program

Where does WPA come into play here?

While the hard drive is in PC#2 it will be hard drive 1 (second hard drive)
and this will be recorded during the disk prep. Move it to PC#1, it now
becomes hard drive 0. XP's hardware check will see that change and you
could run into trouble because of it.

Also - are you happy with IFW? Did you have to provide them with
information from your PC to get a paid copy? (I try to avoid
over-enthusiastic copy-protection schemes - WPA is the main reason I
waited so long to upgrade - I do things honestly and the schemes are
just so often a burden - as I'm finding out in this thread 8-})
thanks!

I'm very happy with IFW. It's reasonably priced compared to other imaging
programs and is well supported. The only info I had to provide was an email
address for the license for the software to be emailed. Purchasing IFW
includes a copy of IFD. There is a cdboot.f35 file in the paid IFD program.
This file is your "key" to the paid versions. It is used by IFD and IFW.
Keep a spare copy of that file around. Drop it into your IFW directory.

There is a supplemental download of a free tool, PhyLock, that allows
images to be created while you're working in Windows. The tool grabs an
image of files that are in use so that the complete image can be created.
This is very similar to and serves the same purpose of "shadow volume" that
is used by ntbackup. To utilize, simply drop a copy of PhyLock into the
working IFW directory.

There is a link on the TeraByte site to a step by step tutorial that walks
you through creating and restoring an image by step. And of course the
program has a help file and there are user support forums available.

 

[Jeff W]

awesome Sharon - just want I need - this is great stuff.

thanks!
/j

Change the plan to
1) add and format a new disk on PC #1: use the disk prep tools on the XP
setup CD. Once the drive is prepared, cancel setup.
2) Restore image over the network from PC #2 (most imaging programs support
restoring over the network)
3) N/A
4) boot
5) Handle your data backups using your preferred method/program


While the hard drive is in PC#2 it will be hard drive 1 (second hard drive)
and this will be recorded during the disk prep. Move it to PC#1, it now
becomes hard drive 0. XP's hardware check will see that change and you
could run into trouble because of it.


I'm very happy with IFW. It's reasonably priced compared to other imaging
programs and is well supported. The only info I had to provide was an email
address for the license for the software to be emailed. Purchasing IFW
includes a copy of IFD. There is a cdboot.f35 file in the paid IFD program.
This file is your "key" to the paid versions. It is used by IFD and IFW.
Keep a spare copy of that file around. Drop it into your IFW directory.

There is a supplemental download of a free tool, PhyLock, that allows
images to be created while you're working in Windows. The tool grabs an
image of files that are in use so that the complete image can be created.
This is very similar to and serves the same purpose of "shadow volume" that
is used by ntbackup. To utilize, simply drop a copy of PhyLock into the
working IFW directory.

There is a link on the TeraByte site to a step by step tutorial that walks
you through creating and restoring an image by step. And of course the
program has a help file and there are user support forums available.

awesome

 

[Jeff W]

Ok folks – sorry this post has gone on so long, but for those of you who
are still with me – I’ve gotten enough information that I think I can
explain how it all works:

In the partition that contains XP, there is special information in the
boot sector which is specific to your XP installation and needs to be
captured in a backup if you want to be able to restore (as opposed to
rebuild) a disk. Only an image backup of the partition captures this
information.

There is also some information outside ALL the partitions (the master
boot loader) that has to be restored to the boot sector of a disk that
holds XP, for XP to boot. This information is not specific to your system.

So – for backups, use an image backup for the partition that contains
XP. Backup the other partitions however you want to.

For restore, (thanks Sharon!)
1) add and format a new disk on the PC that had the failed disk: use the
disk prep tools on the XP setup CD to prep the drive, including
installing the Master Boot Loader .Once the drive is prepared, cancel setup.
2) Restore the image for the XP partition over the network (most imaging
programs support restoring over the network)
3) boot.
4) restore your other backups.

What gets hairy is if you lose the information in the boot sector of the
XP partition. This is when you get into repair-installs and such.

Does this make sense? Did I miss anything?
Thanks!
/j

 

[Jeff W]

Hey Sharon - I started a new thread called "Upgrade from 98SE by
installing XP to it's own partition, the best way to upgrade?????" and
I'd really love your input on it if you can spare the time (since we
appear to be approaching thing similarly). Basically, rather than
start clean (too time consuming), or upgrade (too much risk of 'dirty'
windows directory and other problems), I'm thinking the best compromise
is to install XP to a different partition than 98SE (perhaps to a new,
additional partition created solely for the XP O/S), and then re-install
the apps that need it. I'd use the migration wizard to move registry
settings and app-specific files stored in the windows directory. All the
APPs and data files stay where they are. Small Apps, shareware, etc,
mostly probably run Ok without re-install. For everything else I'd just
have to do a re-install in place, which isn't too painful. WIll it
work? Is it worth the effort over a simple upgrade? Is XP happy in
like the E: or F: partition? Some advantages are that for apps that
aren't xp-compatible I get dual boot, and the partition i have to image
is small.

thanks!!!!!!
/j

 

[Jeff W]

Sharon - could I comment on your writing below? When you say "recorded
during disk prep" isn't it recorded in the boot record of the partition
containing XP - so when you overwrite that partition with the disk-image
restore, the correct information should be restored, yes?

/j

 

[Jeff W]

Sharon - could I comment on your writing below? (see ********* in your
reply below)?

You made a point that if one preps a hard drive in a different PC than the
one that it will be used in, it's (incorrect) location will be "recorded
during disk prep". I agree, but isn't this information recorded only
in the boot record of the partition containing XP? So when that partition
is later overwritten with the disk-image restore, the incorrect information
is overwritten with the (old) correct information, right?

thanks


/j

 

[Sharon F]

Sharon - could I comment on your writing below? (see ********* in your
reply below)?

You made a point that if one preps a hard drive in a different PC than the
one that it will be used in, it's (incorrect) location will be "recorded
during disk prep". I agree, but isn't this information recorded only
in the boot record of the partition containing XP? So when that partition
is later overwritten with the disk-image restore, the incorrect information
is overwritten with the (old) correct information, right?

thanks

Getting ready to leave on a business trip so only have a few moments for a
quick response. I understand what you're saying and why it looks like it
will work. It's even possible that it would work BUT XP is different from
Win9x in how it manages disks.

It doesn't care what the drive letters are and internally refers to drives
and partitions with a series of numbers: "0,0,0,1" is the first partition
of the master drive located on the primary IDE of a system that has a
single operating system. There is some housekeeping done when XP shuts down
- a lot of it is disk related. And this would happen on PC #1. I am not
positive but it is very possible that this housekeeping will "undo" what
was restored by the imaging software. That in turn could cause an
unexpected surprise when you go to boot the drive on PC #2. While your
scenario might work, there's a chance that it won't. Could always try it
out to be sure one way or the other. However, I haven't bothered since I
know that restoring to a drive while it's in the intended position works
well. It's also less physical work - no swapping drives around.
Install/restore the drive where it's going to operate and you're done.

 

[Jeff W]

fair enough - thanks - enjoy your trip!!!!!!!

I raised the issue because i -thought- I understood where all the
information was stored, and your comment raised the spectre of
information trhat was machine-specific but stored outside a partition.
Now I see your point, the machine for the drive I'm fixing my be OK, but
the other machine might get hosed.

THANKS!
travel safe
/j