turbulent flow not bad for cooling

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" does the Wriggle and Squirm:

I'm not the one who made the claim Tim, I only wrote
"millions" (and the rest) after you had already made a claim
you couldn't back up.

Always trying to change the subject. This thread is about the
efficacy of turbulence in heat transfer between a solid and
a liquid. Stick to the subject, which is:

http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" charged:

Without the testing, you are just another loon with a
half-baked idea.

"Half-baked idea"?


http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" gets ridiculous:

Yes, before or after the hot part, never did I claim ON the
part.

And HOW do you propose to reduce turbulence "after the hot part"?
And wouldn't turbulenced induced "ON the hot part" reduce your
revered bulk flow rate?

C'mon, kornball, you keep pointing out that the generation of
turbulence would cut down the flow rate, but you keep promoting
turbulence "ON the hot part". What are you, schizoid or cross-eyed
or dyslexic? You should look into that: https://www.amidyslexic.com/ .

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Did it not occur to you that an applicable demonstration is
of what you are proposing, not of some other thing that
merely has turbulence as a variable?

"Turbulence as a variable" is exactly what is called for,
and that is what the experiment in BenchTest.com
provided. That the experimenter didn't plan it that way
is immaterial - that's what discoveries frequently are:
unplanned results.

*TimDaniels*

 

[kony]

"kornball" charged:


"Half-baked idea"?

yes

Test it, provide a reproducible model.

 

[kony]

"kornball" gets ridiculous:


And HOW do you propose to reduce turbulence "after the hot part"?
And wouldn't turbulenced induced "ON the hot part" reduce your
revered bulk flow rate?

Minimization of obstructions. Surely this was obvious? If
not, it's starting to become clear why you feel ATX is a
problem.

C'mon, kornball, you keep pointing out that the generation of
turbulence would cut down the flow rate, but you keep promoting
turbulence "ON the hot part". What are you, schizoid or cross-eyed
or dyslexic? You should look into that: https://www.amidyslexic.com/ .

It's too bad you are stuck.

 

[kony]

"Turbulence as a variable" is exactly what is called for,
and that is what the experiment in BenchTest.com
provided. That the experimenter didn't plan it that way
is immaterial - that's what discoveries frequently are:
unplanned results.

We already know lowering intake rate reduces turbulence on
the hot parts inside. A thermal sensor isn't a hot part,
it's not cooled more by a higher rate of the same temp air,
rather change in airflow patterns is what effects it.

Try again, and be refuted again, or test like everybody
else.

 

[kony]

"kornball" does the Wriggle and Squirm:


Always trying to change the subject. This thread is about ...

.... you not accepting that you jumped to a conclusion
prematurely without testing.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" repeated:

Test it, provide a reproducible model.

Why is it that you've never produced test results,
reproducible or otherwise, that show that laminar
flow cools best - in contradiction to proven fluid
mechanics and aerodynamics? Could it be that it
would be embarrassing to you to find that the world's
scientists have been correct all along? Just look
at this to see how utterly wrong you are:

http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" dodged a question:

"Timothy Daniels" asked:

Minimization of obstructions. Surely this was obvious? If
not, it's starting to become clear why you feel ATX is a
problem.

So you would simply WAIT for the turbulence to die down.
How admirably PATIENT of you! Meanwhile, the hot air
coming off the CPU heatsink is about a half-second away
from other parts downstream. If you believe that turbulence
will die out due to viscosity in half a second, you haven't
spoken with any aircraft pilots.



[kornball doesn't anwer the question above because he can't.]

C'mon, kornball, you've been repeatedly talking about how
turbulence saps the bulk flow rate. How're you going to get
it going "on the hot part" without reducing the bulk flow rate?

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" double-talks:

A thermal sensor isn't a hot part,
it's not cooled more by a higher rate of the same temp air,
rather change in airflow patterns is what effects it.

How do you know it wasn't in contact with a hot part?

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" gets lamer and lamer:

... you not accepting that you jumped to a conclusion
prematurely without testing.

I accept what generations of scientists have found
about fluid dynamics and aerodynamics in the last
one or two hundred years. I don't have to test for
gravity to know it exists and what it does. You, on
the other hand, still deny these:

http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"Timothy Daniels" asked:

It's too bad you are stuck.

C'mon, kornball, which is it? Are schizoid, cross-eyed, or are
you dyslexic? When are you going to read these webpages:

http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."

*TimDaniels*