"tricking" Vista ultimate upgrade to install on clean HDD?

[Conor]

Not only is the repsonse rude, but it shows some ignorance with respect to
prior "upgrade" versions of Windows. In each prior OS, you could typically
just insert a CD or floppy to prove ownership of the prior version - you did
not need to install the OS.

Blame the pirates. It's because of them that we're stuck with WPA and
the new way of installing an upgrade version. When 20% or 144,000,000
Windows installs are bogus, you can't blame a company for tightening
things up.

 

[Paul-B]

When 20% or 144,000,000
Windows installs are bogus, you can't blame a company for tightening
things up.

Do you have a source for this figure of 20% or did you just pluck the
figure from the air?

 

[Conor]

Do you have a source for this figure of 20% or did you just pluck the
figure from the air?

Was in all the IT news a last week. Microsoft released figures from
it's WGA program. The figures take account of "false positives".

Google "one in five windows installs pirate" and you'll get a load of
hits from the IT news sites.

"Since WGA launched in July 2005, over 512 million users have attempted
to validate their copy of Windows, Microsoft said. Of those, the non-
genuine rate was 22.3 percent.

While high, that number is less than the average software piracy rate
around the world, according to the Business Software Alliance. The BSA
reports that 35 percent of the world's software is pirated (22 percent
in North America specifically), and a Yankee Group study noted that 55
percent of organizations report instances of counterfeit or pirated
software."

 

[Henry Jones]

Twista, I didn't know you posed for the picture. Good going. Nice job!

Thank you

 

[JC HARRIS]

Actually, you can do a clean install option in the upgrade version as well.

The upgrade path doesn't always work, so I tried it the other way and it
worked fine (booting from the CD). PITA to have to reload programs, but at
least it worked and didn't wait until 2 hours had been spent on the upgrade
path before it failed.

 

[Guest]

I noted this comment:
will not install on any PC unless Windows XP or Windows 2000 is already on
the machine in question. In years previous, upgrade versions of Windows
could be installed on any PC. If a PC did not have an older version of
Windows installed, users could provide an older installation CD of Windows
for verification. After dropping a qualifying CD in the CD-ROM drive, the
installation routine would verify the disc and you'd be on your way. With
this approach, one could use an "upgrade" copy of Windows to lay a new
Windows install on a computer. <<<

Does this mean that if you have WinXP Pro and buy the Ultimate Upgrade
version you can do a clean install or in all cases do you need a full version
to do a clean install?

Thank you...

Yes it sure has.

You will not have access to the major tools that Vista provides to repair it
and I'm detailing this below for you.

Let me give you a compelling reason to get a full DVD:

If you do not have a full DVD, or you have an upgrade DVD you are *NOT
going to have the major tools you'll need to fix Vista. You of course will
have System Restore via its new Volume Shadow Copy format adapted from the
Windows Server environment.

Anytime I ever spend $1000-$4000 for a new PC, (I order from an online site
because I like to choose my features and many stores don't have that choice)
I insist on them giving me the Windows OS DVD of the moment, and I have
heard that one is Vista. So either insist on it or buy the full DVD is my
advice.

You of course may have Backup depending on your edition. I applaud them for
doing this, but like a lot of users here, I prefer using an imaging system
like GHOST or ACRONIS or another type that works best for the user.

I am going to include some recent information and questions that are
additional posed on upgrade DVDs this morning and one of the guys who posed
the question writes one of the most comprehensive books on Vista that is
hitting stores this week (Ed Bott author of Windows Vista Inside Out MSFT
Press). I also point out below the major repair modalities in Vista that
you will not access unless you have a full Vista version DVD. You won't be
accessing them via that upgrade DVD.

The Upgrade scenario that MSFT has posed failed to take into consideration
what happens if the person has to format and cannot repair and also failed
to take into consideration that those customers should have full access to
the full panoply of Vista repair tools.

They do not: Read Below please and you'll become a more informed buyer:

MSFT has blocked your ability to repair Vista in two major ways it turns
out:

1) If you do not get a Vista DVD (Dell says you will from them) when you pay
$1000-2000 for your new Vista preloaded computer today, tonight or in the
future you cannot access the repair modalities I describe below from Win RE
on the Vista DVD or the Windows Repair Environment.

2) If you buy an Upgrade DVD.

See below:

And with all the excellent upgrade posts here, including Colin Barnhorst's I
haven't seen this little issue raised. Suppose that you cannot use Win RE's
major components to repair Vista which would be Startup Repair, System
Restore *from Win RE which I find superior to SR using the Volume Shadow
system adapted from the Windows Server environment, restoring the boot
sector using the bootsect /nt52 SYS from the Windows Recovery Environment
discussed in the MSKB directly below

How to troubleshoot scenarios in which the rollback phase was unsuccessful
after you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927523/en-us

and something that has not been mentioned that I can tell to date on this
group or much in the TBT groups:

How to use the Bootrec.exe tool in the Windows Recovery Environment to
troubleshoot and repair startup issues in Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392/en-us

Startup Repair can also be used when there is not a problem booting into
Windows Vista and when it works which is not all the time (you should repeat
2-3 times if it does not) fix major broken Vista components:

A Stop error occurs, or the computer stops responding when you try to start
Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925810/en-us

So suppose all these repair modalities used correctly and I emphasize there
are a minority of times when Startup Repair may need to be tried, i.e.
repeated 2-3 times until it works, and you have this scnario mentioned by
George Ou on his ZDNET blog this morning (January 29, 2007) in my time zone:

(I would think you could avoid a lot of "Geek Squad" money by the way by
simply searching this group, the setup group and the other MSFT Vista public
groups using View>Find):

From George Ou and a point that has not been raised that I can tell on this
group or the setup group and certainly has not been touched by Jill Zoeller
or Darrel Gorter who occasionally particpate here from MSFT:

From:
January 29th, 2007
Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

by George Ou

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589


"These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped
out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000
was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any reason
will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?"


MSFT's current MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/upgradepaths.mspx

Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:

Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2082979,00.asp

What's the real story with Vista upgrades?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189

Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589

__________________________________________

MSFT's curreng MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/upgradepaths.mspx

Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:

Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2082979,00.asp

What's the real story with Vista upgrades?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189

Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589

What's the Real Story With Vista Upgrades?
Ed Bott
January 29th, 2007

"A story by Ken Fisher on Ars Technica this morning is raising alarm flags.
Fisher points to Microsoft Knowledge Base article 930985, which documents a
change in the setup process for upgrade versions of Windows Vista. The
article's title reads: "You cannot use an upgrade key to perform a clean
installation of Windows Vista."

Fisher concludes, "[Once] again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing
decisions without considering how people actually use their products."

George Ou calls it "another one of those 'what were you thinking' moments
for Microsoft management."

I'm not certain what's actually going on here. The KB article itself is
ambiguous. In Microsoft's world, a clean install requires booting from
optical media (CD or DVD). Here's Microsoft's definition of a clean
installation, as contained in an earlier KB article:

A clean installation refers to removing all data from your hard disk by
repartitioning and reformatting your hard disk and reinstalling the
operating system and programs to an empty (clean) hard disk.

So how is the upgrade media going to work? It sounds like it won't be
bootable, which means that you won't be able to start your PC using the
upgrade DVD. Will it include the disk management tools included on a retail
Vista DVD? Will you be able to install Vista without a product key, as you
can with a retail DVD? Will you be able to install Vista to its own
directory or to an existing disk partition without migrating current
settings - what most people outside Redmond consider a "clean install"?

The answer to all those questions, at this point, is "Nobody knows." At
least, nobody outside of Redmond. So far, the only copies of Windows Vista
that have been distributed to the public and the press have been full retail
copies. I have yet to hear from a single source that has actually seen one
of these upgrade disks and documented the experience. Everything written so
far is just speculation until those disks are in customers' hands tomorrow.
This may turn out to be a headache, as predicted. Or it may turn out to be
much ado about nothing.

Stay tuned."


Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
George Ou
January 29, 2007

Arstechnica is reporting that Windows Vista Upgrade edition will not permit
"clean" installs like all previous versions of Windows Upgrade editions.
Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad?This is another
one of those "what were you thinking" moments for Microsoft management
similar to their bone headed decision to lock the retail version of Vista to
one hardware migration. Microsoft backed out of their ridiculous license
change after Ed Bott sounded the alarm and others picked up on the story.
So Vista Upgrade Edition should really be called Vista "Not Clean" "time
waster" Edition. [Update 4:10AM - A reader clarifies that you can
technically do a clean install by telling Vista to wipe the hard drive
before installing after it confirms a full copy of Windows XP is installed.
This however is still lame because you can't just install Vista on a freshly
formatted hard drive and it will still be a huge time waster.]

In the past, Microsoft has always respected their customer's time and
allowed upgrade versions of Windows to install on a fresh machine so long as
the customer could provide proof of possession of the old software. These
new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped out will
lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000 was
present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any reason
will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?

Some might just say tough; you don't have to buy Windows Vista Upgrade
Edition if you don't like the terms of the agreement. But the problem is
that there are probably already millions of people who bought in to the
promise of Vista upgrade coupons during this last holiday shopping season
with their new computers or their copy of Windows XP and they weren't told
that the upgrade terms have been changed. The Vista Upgrade coupons were
used to lure people in to buying brand new computers for the holiday 2006
shopping season when many people would have probably opted to wait until
after Vista launches at the end of January had they known about these new
restrictions. Now these people are going to be in for a big shock after
they wipe their computers and find out that their copy of Vista won't
install without XP on the computer.

So why is Microsoft making a bone headed decision like this? One
possibility is that Microsoft is afraid that people might try to keep
running XP or Media Center on their existing machines and use Vista on a new
computer. This would mean that Microsoft would be giving away two copies of
Windows for the price of one. While I realize that a company has to make
money off of a commercial Operating System, surely Microsoft could have
worked out a better arrangement. Why not ask people to turn in their old
Windows XP serial number when they get their Full Vista DVD and then
blacklist that serial number from Windows Genuine Advantage. This would be
a fair free trade-up from Windows XP to Windows Vista and no one should
expect to get two versions of Windows for the price of one.

But it could be too late for Microsoft to avoid a backlash because Vista is
launching at the end of today and all those copies of Vista Upgrade with no
way to do clean installs have probably already been manufactured. If
Microsoft wants to set things right for people who want to do clean installs
of Windows Vista especially those who bought in to the promise of Vista
coupons during this last holiday season, Microsoft should allow these people
to opt for a trade-up to the full version of Vista where the old XP serial
number is blacklisted on WGA 30 days after the Vista is shipped to them.
That would seem to be the least they can do.



Sould Microsoft allow a full trade-up to Vista?"

From Ken Fischer (Ars Technica)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070128-8717.html

Vista "upgrade" drops compliance checking, requires old OS to install
1/28/2007 3:11:14 PM, by Ken Fisher

"Microsoft's quest to closely control the way Windows Vista can be used on
PCs has taken a turn for the worse as new information indicates that the
company is breaking tradition when it comes to Windows Vista upgrades. With
Windows Vista, users will not be able to use upgrade keys to initiate
completely new installations. It is a change that will affect few users, but
enthusiasts will certainly be amongst those pinched.

Upgrade versions of Windows Vista Home Basic, Premium, and Starter Edition
will not install on any PC unless Windows XP or Windows 2000 is already on
the machine in question. In years previous, upgrade versions of Windows
could be installed on any PC. If a PC did not have an older version of
Windows installed, users could provide an older installation CD of Windows
for verification. After dropping a qualifying CD in the CD-ROM drive, the
installation routine would verify the disc and you'd be on your way. With
this approach, one could use an "upgrade" copy of Windows to lay a new
Windows install on a computer.

One again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing decisions without
considering how people actually use their products. Last fall the company
trotted out changes to its retail licensing that would have punished users
who frequently upgrade their PC hardware had the company not relented. Now
Microsoft seeks to complicate our ability to start a crisp, new install with

 

[Guest]

I noted this comment:
will not install on any PC unless Windows XP or Windows 2000 is already on
the machine in question. In years previous, upgrade versions of Windows
could be installed on any PC. If a PC did not have an older version of
Windows installed, users could provide an older installation CD of Windows
for verification. After dropping a qualifying CD in the CD-ROM drive, the
installation routine would verify the disc and you'd be on your way. With
this approach, one could use an "upgrade" copy of Windows to lay a new
Windows install on a computer. <<<

Does this mean that if you have WinXP Pro and buy the Ultimate Upgrade
version you can do a clean install or in all cases do you need a full version
to do a clean install?

Thank you...

 

[Adam Leinss]

Are you this rude to everyone or just people asking for help with what
is a recent change to the way Windows upgrades work?

One has to wonder how he stays in the MVP program. The only thing I can
think of is he has evangelized the use of product activation long before
Windows Vista. After reading his postings, you would think product
activation was the solution for world peace.

Adam

 

[Daze N. Knights]

I've been using Complete PC Backup to image my system partition to
DVD(s) on a regular basis and have had to restore about five times now
after doing something dumb (usually involving applications or drivers
not yet ready for Vista), and it has worked flawlessly (and very fast)
for me every time. AFAIC, Vista Premium users are gonna be missing a
good thing in Complete PC Backup, unless they're already using, and
pretty handy with, a third-party app like Acronis.

 

[Robert Moir]

One has to wonder how he stays in the MVP program. The only thing I
can think of is he has evangelized the use of product activation long
before Windows Vista. After reading his postings, you would think
product activation was the solution for world peace.

You mean it isn't?

 

[Twista]

I know immitation is rude, but Carey need not be a grumpy old man for
explaining a painful upgrade process, as his award speaks.

- Twista

: Twista, I didn't know you posed for the picture. Good going. Nice job!
:
: Thank you
:
:
: : >
: > http://www.microscum.com/carey/
: >
: > - Twista
: >
: > : > : The "trick" is to purchase a "Full License" version of Windows Vista.
: > : Do you not understand the meaning of the word "upgrade"?
: > : If you wish to use an upgrade version of Vista to completely
: > : reinstall Vista, then you'll have to install and activate Windows XP
and
: > : then use the Windows Vista "upgrade" DVD to "upgrade" to Vista.
: > :
: > : --
: > : Carey Frisch
: > : Microsoft MVP
: > : Windows Shell/User
: > :
: >
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: > :
: > : "Ninjak on FW" wrote:
: > :
: > : Like a billion other people, I own Windows XP but I'd like to do a
: > : clean install of Vista Ultimate using only the upgrade version. Is it
: > : possible to trick the installer into thinking you have XP installed,
: > : perhaps by copying the entire XP disc to your hard drive? I reinstall
: > : my OS frequently and it will suck if I have to install XP AND Vista
: > : every time.
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> "Colin

This is becoming a real misunderstanding.

THERE ARE NO RETAIL UPGRADE DVD'S! (sorry for the caps)

There are only x86 and x64 dvd's. They are all the same. There are retail
upgrade product keys and retail standard (full edition) product keys. It is
the pk's that effect the change in behavior of Setup, not any characteristic
of the dvd's.

All retail dvd's are bootable and since they are all the same they must all
of necessity have the tools.

Golly, I'm glad I got that out of my system!

Okay, that helps (as long as you can get far enough along to start a
recovery install with an upgrade key)

 

[Bill]

"Since WGA launched in July 2005, over 512 million users have
attempted
to validate their copy of Windows, Microsoft said. Of those, the non-
genuine rate was 22.3 percent.

I'll bet 20% of those were from China.

And when it comes to WGA, the legit copies of XP Pro on our work
computers were deemed to be non-genuine. The IT department had to jump
through hoops to get everything 100% since we're not a large corporation
with volume licensing. We had a 99% non-genuine rate with our computers
(only one laptop passed and IT guys think it was due to our IP range at
the company which was somehow black listed by MS - the laptop was used
for remote admin by the IT department).

But oddly enough you don't hear much about those situations because
Microsoft downplays the error rate claiming it's not an issue.

While high, that number is less than the average software piracy rate
around the world, according to the Business Software Alliance. The BSA
reports that 35 percent of the world's software is pirated (22 percent

Trusting the BSA for accurate stats on piracy is like asking for stats
from oil companies about the benefits of electric cars - neither will
offer the truth.

 

[Guest]

Like a billion other people, I own Windows XP but I'd like to do a
clean install of Vista Ultimate using only the upgrade version. Is it
possible to trick the installer into thinking you have XP installed,
perhaps by copying the entire XP disc to your hard drive? I reinstall
my OS frequently and it will suck if I have to install XP AND Vista
every time.

There is a work around on how to do a clean install using the upgrade
version. Search the web, you will find it, it's quite easy and quite legit
using the genuine upgrade key and geneuine upgraded cd they give you with no
additional software.

 

[Guest]

Yes it sure has.

You will not have access to the major tools that Vista provides to repair it
and I'm detailing this below for you.

Let me give you a compelling reason to get a full DVD:

If you do not have a full DVD, or you have an upgrade DVD you are *NOT
going to have the major tools you'll need to fix Vista. You of course will
have System Restore via its new Volume Shadow Copy format adapted from the
Windows Server environment.

Anytime I ever spend $1000-$4000 for a new PC, (I order from an online site
because I like to choose my features and many stores don't have that choice)
I insist on them giving me the Windows OS DVD of the moment, and I have
heard that one is Vista. So either insist on it or buy the full DVD is my
advice.

You of course may have Backup depending on your edition. I applaud them for
doing this, but like a lot of users here, I prefer using an imaging system
like GHOST or ACRONIS or another type that works best for the user.

I am going to include some recent information and questions that are
additional posed on upgrade DVDs this morning and one of the guys who posed
the question writes one of the most comprehensive books on Vista that is
hitting stores this week (Ed Bott author of Windows Vista Inside Out MSFT
Press). I also point out below the major repair modalities in Vista that
you will not access unless you have a full Vista version DVD. You won't be
accessing them via that upgrade DVD.

The Upgrade scenario that MSFT has posed failed to take into consideration
what happens if the person has to format and cannot repair and also failed
to take into consideration that those customers should have full access to
the full panoply of Vista repair tools.

They do not: Read Below please and you'll become a more informed buyer:

MSFT has blocked your ability to repair Vista in two major ways it turns
out:

1) If you do not get a Vista DVD (Dell says you will from them) when you pay
$1000-2000 for your new Vista preloaded computer today, tonight or in the
future you cannot access the repair modalities I describe below from Win RE
on the Vista DVD or the Windows Repair Environment.

2) If you buy an Upgrade DVD.

See below:

And with all the excellent upgrade posts here, including Colin Barnhorst's I
haven't seen this little issue raised. Suppose that you cannot use Win RE's
major components to repair Vista which would be Startup Repair, System
Restore *from Win RE which I find superior to SR using the Volume Shadow
system adapted from the Windows Server environment, restoring the boot
sector using the bootsect /nt52 SYS from the Windows Recovery Environment
discussed in the MSKB directly below

How to troubleshoot scenarios in which the rollback phase was unsuccessful
after you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927523/en-us

and something that has not been mentioned that I can tell to date on this
group or much in the TBT groups:

How to use the Bootrec.exe tool in the Windows Recovery Environment to
troubleshoot and repair startup issues in Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392/en-us

Startup Repair can also be used when there is not a problem booting into
Windows Vista and when it works which is not all the time (you should repeat
2-3 times if it does not) fix major broken Vista components:

A Stop error occurs, or the computer stops responding when you try to start
Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925810/en-us

So suppose all these repair modalities used correctly and I emphasize there
are a minority of times when Startup Repair may need to be tried, i.e.
repeated 2-3 times until it works, and you have this scnario mentioned by
George Ou on his ZDNET blog this morning (January 29, 2007) in my time zone:

(I would think you could avoid a lot of "Geek Squad" money by the way by
simply searching this group, the setup group and the other MSFT Vista public
groups using View>Find):

From George Ou and a point that has not been raised that I can tell on this
group or the setup group and certainly has not been touched by Jill Zoeller
or Darrel Gorter who occasionally particpate here from MSFT:

From:
January 29th, 2007
Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

by George Ou

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589


"These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped
out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000
was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any reason
will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?"


MSFT's current MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/upgradepaths.mspx

Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:

Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2082979,00.asp

What's the real story with Vista upgrades?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189

Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589



__________________________________________

MSFT's curreng MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/upgradepaths.mspx

Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:

Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2082979,00.asp

What's the real story with Vista upgrades?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189

Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589

What's the Real Story With Vista Upgrades?
Ed Bott
January 29th, 2007

"A story by Ken Fisher on Ars Technica this morning is raising alarm flags.
Fisher points to Microsoft Knowledge Base article 930985, which documents a
change in the setup process for upgrade versions of Windows Vista. The
article's title reads: "You cannot use an upgrade key to perform a clean
installation of Windows Vista."

Fisher concludes, "[Once] again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing
decisions without considering how people actually use their products."

George Ou calls it "another one of those 'what were you thinking' moments
for Microsoft management."

I'm not certain what's actually going on here. The KB article itself is
ambiguous. In Microsoft's world, a clean install requires booting from
optical media (CD or DVD). Here's Microsoft's definition of a clean
installation, as contained in an earlier KB article:

A clean installation refers to removing all data from your hard disk by
repartitioning and reformatting your hard disk and reinstalling the
operating system and programs to an empty (clean) hard disk.

So how is the upgrade media going to work? It sounds like it won't be
bootable, which means that you won't be able to start your PC using the
upgrade DVD. Will it include the disk management tools included on a retail
Vista DVD? Will you be able to install Vista without a product key, as you
can with a retail DVD? Will you be able to install Vista to its own
directory or to an existing disk partition without migrating current
settings - what most people outside Redmond consider a "clean install"?

The answer to all those questions, at this point, is "Nobody knows." At
least, nobody outside of Redmond. So far, the only copies of Windows Vista
that have been distributed to the public and the press have been full retail
copies. I have yet to hear from a single source that has actually seen one
of these upgrade disks and documented the experience. Everything written so
far is just speculation until those disks are in customers' hands tomorrow.
This may turn out to be a headache, as predicted. Or it may turn out to be
much ado about nothing.

Stay tuned."


Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
George Ou
January 29, 2007

Arstechnica is reporting that Windows Vista Upgrade edition will not permit
"clean" installs like all previous versions of Windows Upgrade editions.
Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad?This is another
one of those "what were you thinking" moments for Microsoft management
similar to their bone headed decision to lock the retail version of Vista to
one hardware migration. Microsoft backed out of their ridiculous license
change after Ed Bott sounded the alarm and others picked up on the story.
So Vista Upgrade Edition should really be called Vista "Not Clean" "time
waster" Edition. [Update 4:10AM - A reader clarifies that you can
technically do a clean install by telling Vista to wipe the hard drive
before installing after it confirms a full copy of Windows XP is installed.
This however is still lame because you can't just install Vista on a freshly
formatted hard drive and it will still be a huge time waster.]

In the past, Microsoft has always respected their customer's time and
allowed upgrade versions of Windows to install on a fresh machine so long as
the customer could provide proof of possession of the old software. These
new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped out will
lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000 was
present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any reason
will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?

Some might just say tough; you don't have to buy Windows Vista Upgrade
Edition if you don't like the terms of the agreement. But the problem is
that there are probably already millions of people who bought in to the
promise of Vista upgrade coupons during this last holiday shopping season
with their new computers or their copy of Windows XP and they weren't told
that the upgrade terms have been changed. The Vista Upgrade coupons were
used to lure people in to buying brand new computers for the holiday 2006
shopping season when many people would have probably opted to wait until
after Vista launches at the end of January had they known about these new
restrictions. Now these people are going to be in for a big shock after
they wipe their computers and find out that their copy of Vista won't
install without XP on the computer.

So why is Microsoft making a bone headed decision like this? One
possibility is that Microsoft is afraid that people might try to keep
running XP or Media Center on their existing machines and use Vista on a new
computer. This would mean that Microsoft would be giving away two copies of
Windows for the price of one. While I realize that a company has to make
money off of a commercial Operating System, surely Microsoft could have
worked out a better arrangement. Why not ask people to turn in their old
Windows XP serial number when they get their Full Vista DVD and then
blacklist that serial number from Windows Genuine Advantage. This would be
a fair free trade-up from Windows XP to Windows Vista and no one should
expect to get two versions of Windows for the price of one.

But it could be too late for Microsoft to avoid a backlash because Vista is
launching at the end of today and all those copies of Vista Upgrade with no
way to do clean installs have probably already been manufactured. If
Microsoft wants to set things right for people who want to do clean installs
of Windows Vista especially those who bought in to the promise of Vista
coupons during this last holiday season, Microsoft should allow these people
to opt for a trade-up to the full version of Vista where the old XP serial
number is blacklisted on WGA 30 days after the Vista is shipped to them.
That would seem to be the least they can do.



Sould Microsoft allow a full trade-up to Vista?"

From Ken Fischer (Ars Technica)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070128-8717.html

Vista "upgrade" drops compliance checking, requires old OS to install
1/28/2007 3:11:14 PM, by Ken Fisher

"Microsoft's quest to closely control the way Windows Vista can be used on
PCs has taken a turn for the worse as new information indicates that the
company is breaking tradition when it comes to Windows Vista upgrades. With
Windows Vista, users will not be able to use upgrade keys to initiate
completely new installations. It is a change that will affect few users, but
enthusiasts will certainly be amongst those pinched.

Upgrade versions of Windows Vista Home Basic, Premium, and Starter Edition
will not install on any PC unless Windows XP or Windows 2000 is already on
the machine in question. In years previous, upgrade versions of Windows
could be installed on any PC. If a PC did not have an older version of
Windows installed, users could provide an older installation CD of Windows
for verification. After dropping a qualifying CD in the CD-ROM drive, the
installation routine would verify the disc and you'd be on your way. With
this approach, one could use an "upgrade" copy of Windows to lay a new
Windows install on a computer.

One again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing decisions without
considering how people actually use their products. Last fall the company
trotted out changes to its retail licensing that would have punished users
who frequently upgrade their PC hardware had the company not relented. Now
Microsoft seeks to complicate our ability to start a crisp, new install with

I thought that you could do the following:
I have XPsp2 on my single hard drive.
I resized my single partition to half of the hard drive size, using
Partition Magic.
I recreated another new Primary partition using the new unallocated space.
I restarted my computer with the Vista Ultimate Upgrade CD.
It started and requested the Product Key.
If I put in the Product Key it gave me an error saying I needed a valid copy
of a previous Windows version before I could continue.
I skipped the entry of the Product Key, and continued installing Vista
Ulitimate, as a 'new install', not upgrade.
It had no Product Key and no Activation.
I checked out the install, played with it a bit, added some minor programs,
ran the Windows updates, etc.
I also ran VistaBootPro to edit the BDC (boot manager screen and put in my
custom names).
I shutdown, and restarted the computer.
'Dual Boot' asked me to restart in either 'old XP' or 'Vista' - I chose
Vista.
Vista Ultimate started as a nonProduct Key unActivated version.
I then inserted the CD and Vista Install started again, from within Windows,
asking for my Product Key.
I input my valid Product Key for Vista Ultimate, but did not Activate at
this time.
I also chose 'upgrade' not 'new full install, this time.
The install continued this time - remember, it would not continue the first
time if I tried to put in my Product Key.
At the end of the second install, and after several automatic reboots, I
checked the status.
The Boot Manager still had my previously created entries for both paritions
still.
It repeated the process of asking me for the Windows Update config I wanted
to use, the date and time again, checked my 'performance' again, etc.
However, when done, my 'upgrade' gave me exactly what I wanted, with all my
previously installed programs, desktop background, etc, my Hauppage WinTV,
etc.
All the Windows updates were still there.
Activation still showed 3 days had gone by already, and I had 27 days to
activate.
I then proceeded to activate - it was successful.
I restarted and all was ok; I can dual boot into either XPpro or Vista
Ultimate.
(I think I can even see the Vista drive from within XPPro - looks like it
anyway).
SUMMARY:
Install the Vista Ultimate Upgrade TWICE, once without the Product Key as a
clean install on a new partition, and then start up Vista and install again
from within Vista, with the Product key as an upgrade.
I presume this would be the case with a single-boot install also.
And I presume that had I first used Ghost and installed a Ghosted copy of
almost any copy of Windows on the new partition, I could have just started up
in that copy of Windows and then run a Vista upgrade with Product Key; this
would allow me to use a 'faster first install'.
Ok - off to my next project: installing Parallels for PC into my Vista
partition so that I can install either XPHome or XPPro or WinServer2003 into
a 'window' in Vista, so that I can cut'n'paste from one OS to the other OS.

 

[Guest]

I guess I don't understand the meaning of the word "upgrade" either. In
earlier versions of Windows you could do an upgrade to a clean install if you
had a legal Windows CD to point to from the upgrade CD instead of having to
have the OS installed. I always thought an "Upgrade" could be purchased at a
discount for those that already spent a lot of money on an earlier full
version of Windows. I didn't realize you had to have the earlier OS installed
on the PC before you could do the upgrade. The Vista installation
documentation was written so poorly that one would think you could do a clean
install by booting off of the upgrade DVD. You don't find out you can't until
you enter the code and get the message telling you the upgrade disc has to be
install while running the prior OS.

 

[Kue2]

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_upgrade_clean.asp

 

[Andre Da Costa[ActiveWin]]

1. Boot with the Windows Vista Upgrade DVD.
2. Click "Install Now".
3. Do not enter a Product Key when prompted.
4. When prompted, select the Vista product edition that you do have.
5. Install Vista normally.
6. Once the install is complete, restart the DVD-based Setup from
within Windows Vista. Perform an in-place upgrade.
7. Enter your Product Key when prompted.

 

[Carey Frisch [MVP]]

I suppose Microsoft support received many technical support
calls from users who performed a clean install of previous
Windows upgrade versions and those users had "borrowed"
a qualifying Windows CD. No longer having the CD to
perform a subsequent clean install, those users were asking
"what do I do now" and the only answer was to purchase
a "full version" of Windows. The change was made to
Windows Vista so now a user must have the qualifying
Windows operating system actually installed if they wish
to use an upgrade version of Vista.

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

---------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I don't understand the meaning of the word "upgrade" either. In
earlier versions of Windows you could do an upgrade to a clean install if you
had a legal Windows CD to point to from the upgrade CD instead of having to
have the OS installed. I always thought an "Upgrade" could be purchased at a
discount for those that already spent a lot of money on an earlier full
version of Windows. I didn't realize you had to have the earlier OS installed
on the PC before you could do the upgrade. The Vista installation
documentation was written so poorly that one would think you could do a clean
install by booting off of the upgrade DVD. You don't find out you can't until
you enter the code and get the message telling you the upgrade disc has to be
install while running the prior OS.

 

[bravo.lux]

It seems to be a growing problem among MVPs.

I will also point out, that on several occasions, Carey Frisch
has posted the flat-out wrong information.

-Michael