The *Question* remains

[Colin Barnhorst]

Since we are talking about an Upgrade Edition I don't think so. I think you can only do that on an original, Custom installation.
Can you install without a PK and then provide the key after the install?

It doesn't. If you boot with the dvd and click Install Now you will be
asked for the product key. If it is a full edition pk you are off and
running. If it is an Upgrade pk, you will instructed to run setup from the
desktop of your present Windows and Setup will exit.

When you are up in XP and insert the dvd you choose Install Now from the
splash screen, enter the Upgrade pk and off you go.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

It doesn't. The question actually came down to how to run the Upgrade Edition Setup, which cannot run by booting the dvd, as opposed to the accessing system tools that do require booting with the dvd. The PK tells Setup what edition you are installing and whether or not your PK only allows an upgrade or whether you can do a fresh installation.
How does a DVD become unbootable?

Now we're cooking, Darrell. This is great.

Colin:

You think so? I think it sucks. The upgrade DVD is bootable (perhaps it
is the same as the full DVD), but as soon as you enter the (upgrade)
Product ID, it becomes effectively unbootable.

In that case, this is every bit as bad as everyone has been saying.

David Wilkinson

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I think at this stage that they have been so focused on shipping product for
enterprises and OEM's and publicising the Upgrade coupons and Anytime
Upgrade website that the information about boxed upgrade editions just
hasn't been as widely disseminated within MS yet.

Colin, I'm with Dr. Heywood here. It is hard to believe that the upgrade
scenarios weren't studied in excruciating detail within Microsoft. The
inability to answer these specific questions is most worrying, not to
mention
the confusing incorrect info that takes us down the wrong path for a
while.
The answers to these questions should be readily available in Redmond.

Microsoft isn't making this up as they go along. (Although rumors of late
decisions such as no 64-bit in the package make me wonder about that
too!).

It's sometimes easy to forget that the whole purpose of an upgrade
offering
is to reward the loyal former user. And the upgrade package and its
mechanism
is an automated way to avoid the hassle of rebate coupons and fulfillment
house processing delays.

In the case of Vista it's sounding more like a punitive measure than a
reward!

That hasn't been my experience in the past. Folks may be getting
clarification themselves before answering us. That can take a little
time,
but it will come.

There have been many more than enough threads on this subject, and
orders
of magnitude more posts, and we still have no definitive answer.

Those from MSFT, and those that have contacts at MSFT, have, long ago,
had
the time to give us such an answer. The fact that we are getting only
partial answers and that those answers only lead to more questions is
.
. . troubling, to say the least.

My bet is they either don't know themselves and/or they don't want to
say.



cvp wrote:
Darrell, As silly as that sounds, I'll accept your statement.

So, the question STILL remains: How do I install Vista 64-bit using
the
upgrade product from a qualifying OS such as XP-32? Or is this a hole
in
the "Technology Guarrantee".

:

Hello Colin,
That is correct. When you boot to the dvd and start setup, after
entering the product key, you will be told to start setup from within
the OS.
You should see the following message displayed:
"To use the product key you entered, start the installation from your
existing version of Windows."
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

 

[Dr. Heywood Floyd]

It really doesn't become unbootable - per se. What it does is become
uninstallable, after booting, part way through the install process.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I suspect that the shiny media doesn't matter. If you happened to have the
pk for a full edition and used it in an upgrade edition dvd I'll bet it
would behave just like a full edition and, conversely, if you had a full
edition but used an upgrade edition pk it would behave like an upgrade
edition. Same dvd. I doubt there is any difference whatsoever in the dvd's
themlelves. Just speculating.

 

[Dr. Heywood Floyd]

You may be right. I think you are.

I, personally, don't care it the upgrade install requires a qualifying
OS to be installed and that said install begin from within the existing
OS. But, I'd sure like to know the answer for planning purposes.

During the next 1 to 1½ years I expect to install/upgrade Vista a few
dozen times. Knowing the answer to just a couple of questions sure
would aid in the planning. However, I imagine after just a couple of
installs/upgrades the answer will be self-evident.

 

[David Wilkinson]

Since we are talking about an Upgrade Edition I don't think so. I think you can only
do that on an original, Custom installation.

Colin:

Are we sure that an upgrade DVD is different from a full one? Darrell's
quote "To use the product key you entered, start the installation from
your existing version of Windows." might imply that the DVD's are the
same, and that only the product ID identifies the upgrade version.

I think MS missed a big opportunity here: to use activation to check for
upgrade eligibility, rather than complicating the install process.
Surely the "borrowing of disks" problem could have been solved without
subjecting the user to the inconvenience of having the qualifying OS
actually running (both on initial and on subsequent installs).

David Wilkinson

 

[Brian W]

I don't know that the concern is piracy as much as casual copying. That is
the reuse of the XP license (or continued use) after using it to qualify
for upgrade pricing.

But according to MS, Windows 2000 is a qualifiying Upgrade product (albeit
requiring a Clean install). 2000 did not require acitvation so why go to all
this trouble checking for an activated XP install?

 

[Barry Watzman]

So are you saying that the physical media in upgrade and full product
packages is identical? And only the product key determines the type of
installation permitted?

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

-Will the 64-bit setup program run from 32-bit Windows XP?

-If an upgrade install will only run from within Windows XP, is it
absolutely mandatory that that the copy of XP that the upgrade is run
from first be activated and validated (validated = Windows Genuine
Advantage) (that would be kind of a problem for a blank hard drive in a
machine that's not online)

-Which of the following are possible:

A. Upgrade install of Vista to a partition containing an installed
Windows XP (retaining applications, drivers and settings to the maximum
extent possible and given the specific XP and Vista editions involved)

B. Upgrade install of Vista to a boot / system partition previously
containing Windows XP, totally blowing away XP and leaving only a "clean
install" of Vista

C. "Upgrade" install of Vista to a different or newly created
partition, leaving a "dual boot" configuration of XP and Vista (yes, I
understand the potential EULA issues)

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I think the dvd's are the same and that Setup.exe's behavior is driven by
the product keys. I'll go so far to say that if you booted with a full
edition dvd but entered an upgrade edition product key, Setup would instruct
you that the product key you entered requires you to run Setup from the
desktop of the OS to be upgraded.

Where do you have the impression that Setup.exe would not do an activation
check? I'm sure it does. If you just install a basic XP without activating
and then run the upgrade edition Setup from the XP desktop I'll bet you a
virtual steak dinner that Setup will inform you that Windows must be
activated before proceeding and instruct you to exit Setup, activate, and
rerun Setup. If you are running Win 2000 I suspect that Windows Validation
will simply give silent assent.

It's pretty clear that shiny media doesn't count any more. CD's mean
nothing. It doesn't matter if you lost your Windows cd. The Upgrade
Edition won't ask for it.

Running an Upgrade Edition is all about updating a valid Windows license.
You don't even have to be upgrading the bits on the machine. Looking at the
activation matrix for Win 2000 and XP x64. you can't upgrade the bits.
Therefore you must be able to launch a Custom (clean) installation from the
desktop using an Upgrade Edition Setup and I believe that is how it works
and that you can opt to do it that way even if you could upgrade the bits
(XP). The installation runs in WinPE anyway, and not Vista, so it should
all just work.

At least we know how to answer the question, "what about my Win95 cd?":
Beer anyone? Set it down right here.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

A. Yes.

B. Yes. There are times when you could only launch a Custom (clean)
installation using the Upgrade Edition Setup. How else can you upgrade from
Win 2000 or XP x64 to Vista? In such cases the Upgrade Option will be
greyed out in the Setup selection screen and you would only be able to
choose Custom.

C. I think you will be able to launch any upgrade scenario using an Upgrade
Edition product key with Setup running on the desktop with the possible
exception of installing to a partition other than where the currently
running OS is installed. You might not be able to install to a different
partition. That is a question I hope Darrell will drop by and answer.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Windows Genuine Advantage will validate Win 2000. MS does not disclose what
that involves. I suspect WGA simply gives silent assent at the point where
it would do the activation check for XP and then proceeds. I believe that
is how it works now on Windows Downloads when Windows Validation is
required. How WGA actually does all of these things is proprietary info
that MS is reluctant to disclose for pretty obvious reasons.

 

[David Wilkinson]

I think the dvd's are the same and that Setup.exe's behavior is driven by
the product keys. I'll go so far to say that if you booted with a full
edition dvd but entered an upgrade edition product key, Setup would instruct
you that the product key you entered requires you to run Setup from the
desktop of the OS to be upgraded.

Where do you have the impression that Setup.exe would not do an activation
check? I'm sure it does. If you just install a basic XP without activating
and then run the upgrade edition Setup from the XP desktop I'll bet you a
virtual steak dinner that Setup will inform you that Windows must be
activated before proceeding and instruct you to exit Setup, activate, and
rerun Setup. If you are running Win 2000 I suspect that Windows Validation
will simply give silent assent.

Colin:

My thought is that the validation/confirmation of the original OS (XP,
2000) be postponed until the activation of Vista is attempted. The
activation process would transmit both Product ID's to Microsoft.

In this picture the old OS would not have to be installed previously (or
again to reinstall Vista). In fact you wouldn't even need the original
disk. It's the product ID that matters; disks can be copied/borrowed.
But nobody is going to lend his product ID so his friend can install an
upgrade version of Vista.

I just don't see the point in insisting that the old OS be installed.
All that proves is that the person knows how to install XP or 2000.

David Wilkinson
Visual C++ MVP

 

[Dr. Heywood Floyd]

I think if one tried to enter an upgrade pk when installing from a full
install disk the key would be rejected. If not, what keeps us from
swaping keys between computers or even from just making one up?

I think the dvd's are the same and that Setup.exe's behavior is driven by
the product keys. I'll go so far to say that if you booted with a full
edition dvd but entered an upgrade edition product key, Setup would instruct
you that the product key you entered requires you to run Setup from the
desktop of the OS to be upgraded.

<SNIP>

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I doubt it. I don't think the retail media is any different whatever
edition you buy with the exception of the distinction between x86 vs x64.

I think you can buy a Business Upgrade sku and use the BU pk with an
Ultimate or Basic Premium full sku dvd you already own for the media and
upgrade XP to Vista Business. Some of us have done the equivalent of
exactly that during beta (where we were given a Business key). Someone
commented in here a few days ago that they had participated in a mini-beta
involving Upgrade Edition pk's to check them out. They didn't report any
result, but that kind of testing did apparently happen.

I don't think MS would bother "blocking" anything. I think they just write
it "branch on product key".

 

[Darrell Gorter[MSFT]]

Hello,
I agree, nice post Colin.
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Thanks for the kind words, Darrell.

 

[MICHAEL]

I totally agree, Colin.

On two different machines through numerous beta builds,
I have only had *one* upgrade fail. Granted, the two
times I upgraded XP to Vista, I upgraded lean machines
and removed programs I felt would cause problems, in
addition to what the comp. advisor said.
Ironically, the upgrade that failed was Beta2 to build
5536. I am 99% sure it was because of Trend's beta Vista
AV. I strongly suggest that anyone doing an upgrade, first
remove *any* AV or other security software first- regardless
of what the compatibility advisor may say or not say.

There are lots of XP users that have a ton of software installed,
the advisor will catch some incompatibilities and will miss some.
Of course, lots of users will just ignore the advisor... that's foolish.
The leaner and cleaner the machine the better *and* shorter the
upgrade. Of course, one could argue, if you are going to do all
that, why even bother with the upgrade route- just do a "clean" install,
and then import or reinstall all your other stuff.
That's a valid point. If the upgrade goes well, it does a wonderful
job of keeping settings and most of your stuff is in place and ready
to go. I also found a couple of programs that worked after an upgrade,
that I had many problems trying to install on another Vista machine
that I had removed them from prior to upgrading.

Colin's main point, which is hard for many of us to accept based on
past experiences- the actual installation of the Vista OS will *always*
be a clean install, regardless of the type of install that you do. There
is no mish mash of code or left over bits- it is a brand new image, a
clean OS that is installed every time, and then stuff put back- vastly
different than prior OS installs. The major problems arise from
software incompatibilities.


-Michael

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I wish I knew more about the differences between file copying and block
copying so I could explain why laying down an image does not leave old
snipets behind the way the XP installer did. I think that is the key
reason.

 

[MICHAEL]

Me, too.

I wish I knew more about the differences between file copying and block copying so I could
explain why laying down an image does not leave old snipets behind the way the XP installer
did. I think that is the key reason.