The death of non-x86 is now at hand?

R

Robert Myers

Probably because the display is efficiently converting most of its
electricity into light, whereas the CPU is inefficiently radiating some of
its energy off into space.

All of the processor's energy, usefully expended or not, has to be
eventually gotten rid of as heat. The display gets to get rid of some
of it's energy as useful visible radiation, it's true, but all of that
radiation will be converted to heat, too.

You don't feel the effects of the display energy radiated in the
visible for the same reason you don't feel the effects of the display
energy radiated in the infrared: it's spread over a much larger area
than the heat being dissipated by the processor, and it has such a
large area over which to be cooled both by radiation and conduction
that it never gets very warm.

I was trying to make the point that power consumption by the processor
is not just a battery problem. It's a cooling problem, too.

RM
 
A

Alex Johnson

Robert said:
All of the processor's energy, usefully expended or not, has to be
eventually gotten rid of as heat.

That's not correct, AFAIK. True, all the energy must go somewhere, but
heat is just one form of radiative energy. There are a lot of options.
It just so happens that heat is the prime mechanism of escape for this
energy in this situation. Photons are another common escape route. The
photons can then strike atoms elsewhere, getting converted into heat,
but that's not required. I'm sure given time and someone who knew lots
of physics we could give you a list of non-heat energy-loss situations.

Alex
 
R

Robert Myers

That's not correct, AFAIK. True, all the energy must go somewhere, but
heat is just one form of radiative energy. There are a lot of options.
It just so happens that heat is the prime mechanism of escape for this
energy in this situation. Photons are another common escape route. The
photons can then strike atoms elsewhere, getting converted into heat,
but that's not required. I'm sure given time and someone who knew lots
of physics we could give you a list of non-heat energy-loss situations.

Well, yes. A CPU radiates photons just the way an antenna would. The
CPU itself is a terrible antenna and it is effectively trapped inside
a Faraday cage, which will very quickly convert those photons to joule
heating in the very near vicinity of the CPU.

Some tiny amount of energy has to be able to make it out of the CPU in
some form other than heat in order to allow it to communicate with the
outside world. *Some* of that energy will be radiated succesfully as
photons without first being thermalized, but thanks to the
machinations of the FCC, which imagines that people still watch TV by
some means other than cable, most of those photons are trapped by a
larger effective Faraday cage which quickly converts those photons to
heat.

The energy in this particular category is not necessarily dissipated
in the direct vicinity of the CPU. They *are* converted to heat, but
they do not create a cooling problem unless you keep your laptop
running in a confined space. In any case, the amount of energy in
question is tiny.

Some photons will actually make it into the wild without being
converted to heat. The amount of energy involved is so tiny as to be
irrelevant to the discussion.

My statement as you quoted it is still literally true, but it is also
true that not all of the energy dissipated by the processor has to
contribute to the warm leg effect. Nit-picking aside, the statement
is also practically true in terms of the warm leg effect, with one
important exception.

The important exception, and one that does confuse me, is that I don't
know how to account for the energy dissipated in voltage regulation
circuitry in the immediate vicinity of the CPU. I'm sure that Intel
does not include that power dissipation in its quoted numbers, I
suspect that it is a non-negligible amount of heat, it does contribute
to the warm leg effect, and I wonder what category people would put it
into if they had to make all the means of power dissipation equal the
actual power being drawn at the DC connection of the laptop.

RM
 
G

George Macdonald

Slide 19 of

http://nesl.ee.ucla.edu/courses/ee202a/2002f/lectures/L07_4pp.pdf

shows the display consuming 36% of the power and CPU/memory only 21%
(fall 2002). Funny thing is, I've had my legs made overly warm even
by my Centrino laptop, with which I am very happy, but I can't ever
remember being made uncomfortable by the heat of the display. :p.

That is one of the recent warning notices added in the safety booklets -
alas a "laptop" is no longer a laptop. There was apparently some guy who
got seriously burned - not so much surface burn but deep flesh-cooking
burn.<ugh>

Take a 1.6GHz Pentium-M with 512MB added memory, which is usually close to
the bottom under the memory slot cover, run it intensively and it really
heats up - on a T40 we have, they have the fan vent on the side just where
you'd rest a hand off the keyboard. You can't leave your hand there long
before it gets uncomfortable.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
R

Robert Myers

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:00:48 -0500, George Macdonald

That is one of the recent warning notices added in the safety booklets -
alas a "laptop" is no longer a laptop. There was apparently some guy who
got seriously burned - not so much surface burn but deep flesh-cooking
burn.<ugh>

Take a 1.6GHz Pentium-M with 512MB added memory, which is usually close to
the bottom under the memory slot cover, run it intensively and it really
heats up - on a T40 we have, they have the fan vent on the side just where
you'd rest a hand off the keyboard. You can't leave your hand there long
before it gets uncomfortable.

Fortunately, I can never get sufficiently comfortable with a laptop in
any one position other than leaving it sitting on a hard surface just
as if it were a desktop to leave it in such a position for very long.

Even leaving aside the prospect of flesh burns, there are multiple
vents on the back of my laptop, with a small clearance for those vents
created by stubby feet, so the computer is clearly not designed to
operate in any position other than having it rest solidly on those
four feet leaving clearance elsewhere for the vents. A laptop plainly
it is only in name.

As you have pointed out, even the lower-power Pentium M can get very
hot in normal use, making the Pentium 4M seem like one of the most
brain-damaged products I've ever encountered.

RM
 
T

Tony Hill

That is one of the recent warning notices added in the safety booklets -
alas a "laptop" is no longer a laptop. There was apparently some guy who
got seriously burned - not so much surface burn but deep flesh-cooking
burn.<ugh>

Err.. am I the only one who is currently wondering why this guy didn't
move the laptop off his lap when he first started getting burned? The
thing would have to be several hundred C before it would give him a
deep flesh-cooking burn in a very short period of time!
 
T

Tony Hill

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:00:48 -0500, George Macdonald
Even leaving aside the prospect of flesh burns, there are multiple
vents on the back of my laptop, with a small clearance for those vents
created by stubby feet, so the computer is clearly not designed to
operate in any position other than having it rest solidly on those
four feet leaving clearance elsewhere for the vents. A laptop plainly
it is only in name.

Some of these days I really do start to think that the Mac zealots
aren't entirely wrong when they say that Apple is doing things the
right way (of course, said Mac zealots usually follow this up with
some foaming at the mouth, but that's another story). Surely the PC
vendors seem to be losing touch with things here.
As you have pointed out, even the lower-power Pentium M can get very
hot in normal use, making the Pentium 4M seem like one of the most
brain-damaged products I've ever encountered.

The "Mobile Pentium4-M" isn't so bad, it's the "Mobile Pentium4" that
is the really space heater! The P4-M has a TDP of only 35W at it's
maximum, still hot but not entirely out of line. The Mobile Pentium4
(no -M) is the one that you can use to cook your breakfast on while
you work. Those chips have a TDP of up to 70W!

AMD is currently taking the title with their "Desktop Replace"
Athlon64 chips, with a TDP of 82W, though the actual power use of
those chips seems to be a fair bit lower (though still 50-60W).
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Tony Hill said:
Err.. am I the only one who is currently wondering why this guy didn't
move the laptop off his lap when he first started getting burned? The
thing would have to be several hundred C before it would give him a
deep flesh-cooking burn in a very short period of time!

I think I recall this incident too. It seemed like his flesh was getting
slowly burned from the inside out over several months of usage ontop of his
lap. Almost like as if it were like a type of microwave that zeroed in on
certain molecule in his body that only existed in his deep flesh but not his
skin and began heating that.

OTOH it could've been one of those urban legends too. :)

Yousuf Khan
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.sys.intel Grumble said:
Both ULV Celerons in the ?FC-BGA package (400 MHz and 650 MHz) were
designed with a 130 nm process.

http://intel.com/design/intarch/datashts/27380402.pdf

Thanks, didn't find that before. So there's not much room for a process
shrink there -- I can't imagine those will go to 90nm all that soon, they're
not likely to be high-profit parts.
In a laptop, what fraction of the battery consumption is the CPU
responsible for?

Depends on the workload, but I don't know the exact details.
How much energy can a battery store?

If I recall right, typical lithium-ion batteries range from 45 watt-hours to
90 watt hours.
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.sys.intel Robert Myers said:
shows the display consuming 36% of the power and CPU/memory only 21%
(fall 2002). Funny thing is, I've had my legs made overly warm even
by my Centrino laptop, with which I am very happy, but I can't ever
remember being made uncomfortable by the heat of the display. :p.

The processor is spread over a much smaller area than the display, and is a
good deal more contained. For that matter, since I can't get the PDF you
listed to come up, I wonder what workload that's under. LCD/TFT
and weren't so expensive, making it kind of strange to look for a
sub-$100 processor to pair up with one. :p.

They're not that expensive anymore. 14" external flat panel displays are
under $200 at retail, including the case and power supply, so the actual
manufacturer cost of the TFT panel itself is very likely under $100.
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.sys.intel Tony Hill said:
The "Mobile Pentium4-M" isn't so bad, it's the "Mobile Pentium4" that
is the really space heater! The P4-M has a TDP of only 35W at it's
maximum, still hot but not entirely out of line. The Mobile Pentium4
(no -M) is the one that you can use to cook your breakfast on while
you work. Those chips have a TDP of up to 70W!

How big is the point source for the heating though? My impression was that
the surface temperature of the P4-M actually got hotter than a typical
desktop-use P4 (even when embedded in a laptop).
 
G

George Macdonald

Err.. am I the only one who is currently wondering why this guy didn't
move the laptop off his lap when he first started getting burned? The
thing would have to be several hundred C before it would give him a
deep flesh-cooking burn in a very short period of time!

Not really - ever heard of "coddled eggs"? You can cook flesh with much
less than 100°C. I can imagine where it starts as feeling comfortably
warm, then as it gets warmer, an anaesthetizing effect as the nerve ends
get cooked from the slow umm, simmer.:)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
R

RusH

George Macdonald said:
with much less than 100°C. I can imagine where it starts as
feeling comfortably warm, then as it gets warmer, an

[cut damn CUT]

not STOP mister before I get sick !
yuck ! I will never use my Laptop again :(

Pozdrawiam.
 
T

The little lost angel

(e-mail address removed) (Nate Edel) wrote :


more like 15-40 (typical)

Both my old IBM and current one were above 40Wh for an average of 2.5
to 3hrs useful life doing office type work.


--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
T

The little lost angel

I would throw out a guess of 10-15W for a 14" or 15" TFT screen
running off batteries, maybe even less. Certainly the processor and
the screen are well within the same ballpark. Compare that to the
Mobile Celeron with a TDP of 35W and very few power saving features
and the VIA's ~10W CPU starts to look fairly reasonable, especially
when it only costs $25.

I'm not sure how valid this is but I did a short experiment on my 1.7
P4M (not the hot Mobile P4) with speedstep set for maximum
performance.

With LCD, full brightness, running BurnP7 normal priority, 37~38W
LCD off, video out to CRT, running BurnP7 normal priority, 33~34W.

So the LCD uses only 4~5W? Seems a bit on the low side.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
T

Tony Hill

Not really - ever heard of "coddled eggs"? You can cook flesh with much
less than 100°C. I can imagine where it starts as feeling comfortably
warm, then as it gets warmer, an anaesthetizing effect as the nerve ends
get cooked from the slow umm, simmer.:)

Yumm... "coddled legs" :>
 
R

RusH

[email protected] (The little lost angel) wrote :
Both my old IBM and current one were above 40Wh for an average of 2.5
to 3hrs useful life doing office type work.

hmm, my toshiba has a 10V 3000mA battery pack and thats a typical
capacity. New cheap laptops sometimes come with funny 1500mA batteries
:) (One hour on a Centrino).



Pozdrawiam.
 
N

Nate Edel

In comp.sys.intel RusH said:
more like 15-40 (typical)

At least in terms of rated capacities, that means that Dell uses bigger
batteries than most. The batteries used in my Inspiron (and in earlier
4000-series models, and most of the Lattitude CP and C serieses) is a 66 Whr
battery. They advertise a 90 Whr battery for several of their heavier
models.
 
K

Keith R. Williams

a?n?g?e? said:
Both my old IBM and current one were above 40Wh for an average of 2.5
to 3hrs useful life doing office type work.

Another data point: I have my spare ThinkPad A21p battery here in front
of me. It's a 58Wh (5.4Ah, 10.8V) battery and lasts about 2hrs doing
real work. The screen on this things eats the power (the reason I have
a spare).
 

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