Tables - Cells - Preview Mode

[David]

Hello All,

I have a annoying little problem understanding table
behavior in FP, (2000 or 2002).

I have a table with cells and some tables inside those
cells. I can't seem to get the orginization I want unless
I used these nested tables, but I am open to ideas.

Often, what I see in page mode is what I get in preview
mode, (preview or preview in browser).

But every once and awhile I get one that just looks fine
in page mode, but goes nuts when previewed.

I can't seem to find the culprit. It seems like it is a
problem with either not specifing pixels or using
percentage or something. But I have tried various
combinations and can't fathom it.

Here are some examples -----

This page looks like I want:
http://www.virginiamountaineer.com/testsite/page2.html

This page looks like I want in page mode, but not when
viewed in preview or in a browser:
http://www.virginiamountaineer.com/testsite/page4.html

What's up?

I have a few buttons and graphics that need retouched, so
over look those ugly buggers.

Also, any ideas on how to improve this little page I
wouldn't mind.. I am trying to come up with the
following:

1) Easy format that lends itself to weekly changes of text
and photos. To this end I'me puting the header in a
header.htm file and using include page option so that I
can change it in one place, once I'ts all together. I'm
searching for a way to place news articles in plain text
in a location and have the page build around the text
automaticaly. Suggestions would be great. Same with
photos. AUTOMATION>>>I crave it.

2) Suggestions on tastefull yet effect placement of
advertisment, as we will be selling it hopefully.

3) Some easy method of auto archiving old content and
maintaining links.


The page
http://www.virginiamountaineer.com/testsite/index.html
will be replacing this page shortly, I hope:
http://www.virginiamountaineer.com/index.html

Many thanks,

David B.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

1. Avoid using the Preview tab, always use Preview in Browser, as you are
looking at the page as will be seen on the internet, plus you are using the
full browser.

2. If you are going to work with tables, then in many cases you will have to
also use nested tables to get the structure you want.

3. Personally, I always use a base table with a fixed width of 750 pixels
(with the exception on my site below). Then in most cases the inside cells
of the base table are set a fixed width, then any nested table are inserted
using a %.

4. If you have the option and willingness to learn a server-side scripting
language such as ASP, PHP, etc. then you could use a database help manage
content.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Guest]

I understand that it the only way you can know what you
have is to look at it, (that is look at it in the manner
it will be used...in the browswer).

That's how I discovered the problem and came here.

What I don't understand is when I use the tool to make it
look like I want, it dosen't come out the other end
looking like it showed me it would.

It makes the tool a bit useless. And qualifies as a
major flaw.

What I was hoping was for was some insight into why the
tool I am using is sweetly telling me "oh yeah, it looks
fine to me," when in reality it's lauging devilishly
behind the facade of it's lie.

If I had a wrench and it turned my television off when I
applied it to a bolt, It wouldnt be worth much as a tool
for loosening and tightenting bolts.

I have this tool, that lets me see what I am making in a
GUI, so it will match the output (htlm file for the
browser)...only it don't match the output because it's
screwed up.

Any specific ideas on what is going on here or how I can
get around this products screw up? Vauge ain't cutting
the mustard.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

The problem is that different browsers, versions, monitor will all display
sites, slightly different. This is just how the web works, not matter what
tool you use.

It does take a lot of time and effort to have a site look basically the same
across various browsers, etc that users may be using to visitor your site.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[David B.]

So the preview tab is flawed? This feature is not
ready? After FP97, 98, 2000, and now 2002 Microsoft
still can't get it going? This is sad.

Having said this, I do use the Preview in Browser. I
Preview it in Netscape, Safari (for Mac) and MS for
Windows and Mac. This is what enabled me to discover the
problem. My tables don't work all the time.

I'm just trying now to find out why they don't work. As
the GUI in the page mode is the main feature of Front
Page, allowing a user to create their page, visualy,
while having an idea of the output expected in the
browser, it is very reasonable to expect it to work.

So when it doesn't work, I come to this great resource to
try to get a concreate answer.

Anyone got an idea excatly where the cookie is crubling
in my tables?

It is especialy frustrating that I can don't seem to get
predictable results as 3 out of 4 of the pages I make
seem fine, but that forth one ends up swallowing several
hours of moving cells around, trying diffrent
percentages, distributing cells around and ect.
Understanding of the problem is what I am hoping to
discover from this newsgroup. With this understanding, I
will them be able to create the web content on a periodic
basis in a timely fashion.

If I can't find the answers then I am going to have to
come to the conclusion front page the wrong product to be
using and switch to a competing prodcut.

I want to use Microsoft products, but I need a bit of
back up here.

And yes, I did agree with you, I must use nested tables
to get the stucture I want. The problem is there is
buggy behavior from Front Page using Nested Tables. I
just want a knowledge base article or something I can
read to help me fathom the phenomonon.

I've been trying to use 720 pixel based tables, but 750
is a nice number too.

I have done server sided ASP pages using access
databases, but the server I have to work with doens't
support ASP or have ODBC avaiable, and I would have to
learn pearl or something, which is a possiblity. I was
going more for some simple batch file or something to run
to suck in text from diffrent reports network drives or a
folder on one machine so that the page can remain the
same while the content changes....I guess that is one
that is gonna take some time. Thank you for the datbase
suggestion.

I'm still stuck and confused on why some of my tables go
beserk and would love some solid ideas.

Best regareds,

David B.

 

[David]

Sorry for the double post. I thought the my second reply
got sent to the bit bucket.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

The Preview is not flawed, it is just not a full browser. It function is to
just to give you a quick view of what your page look like.

Dave, here is a site I create 100% with FP2000 using tables:
http://www.ourcondo.com

It just takes time (trial and error), to get the look you are after, and I
mainly concentrated on trying to make it look great in NS4 and fairly good
in NS3.04.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Guest]

Nice....clean

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Thank you!

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Guest]

As a customer of Microsoft, I want products that remove
or limit as much as possible this "trial and error" your
talking about.

Trial and error equals time and time equals money, and my
time is being wasted on trial and error.

I don't mind a reasonable amount of trial and error.
However, some of this stuff is getting to be just too
esoteric.

As I will be using this product to output a web page with
weekly changing content, (or maybe not front page if it
doens't loose some of it's mystic qualities soon), I
don't relish the idea of trial and error till 3 am every
Tuesday night for the rest of my carrer at my
establishment.

So again, I send out a general SOS to any and all....why
do my tables look fine in design mode...but go all to
peices when previewed anywhere....in the browser or in
the preview tab.

Some concrete examples like...."a nested table with cell
padding greater than 5 causes problems" or "fixed
percentages are not to be used in in nested tables, " or
whatever the causes may be.

Surely there must be a list someplace of why some things
fail.

Anyone?

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

That is where a database driven web site comes into play, you spend the
initial time (trial and error) to get the pages to look the best you can in
the various browsers and versions, then you use ASP or another server-side
script language to then populate the page content from a database.

If you are using FP2003, then look into using the Dynamic Web Template with
editable regions being defined for the content that will be updated on a
regular basis.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================