Stumped

A

Andy/Bandi

To All Cognoscenti, Greetings!

I've started using a 500 GB external HD for backups under Vista Ultimate.
All the visible folders on it contain a total of about 300 GB. "Computer"
shows about 59 GB free space. Where has the rest disappeared to? I have
"Show hidden files" ticked. I've done a "Disk cleanup." What gives?

With thanks,

Andy
 
Q

Qu0ll

To All Cognoscenti, Greetings!

I've started using a 500 GB external HD for backups under Vista Ultimate.
All the visible folders on it contain a total of about 300 GB. "Computer"
shows about 59 GB free space. Where has the rest disappeared to? I have
"Show hidden files" ticked. I've done a "Disk cleanup." What gives?

What is the "real" capacity of the drive? It may be known as a 500GB but it
probably actually only has capacity for a lot less than that. One of my
drives is known as a 150GB drive but in reality it's only a 136GB drive.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

What is the "real" capacity of the drive? It may be known as a 500GB but it
probably actually only has capacity for a lot less than that. One of my
drives is known as a 150GB drive but in reality it's only a 136GB drive.


All hard drive manufacturers do this. They define 1GB as 1,000,000,000
bytes, while the rest of the computer world, including Windows,
defines it as 2 to the 30th power (1,073,741,824) bytes.

Some people point out that the official international standard defines
the "G" of GB as one billion, not 1,073,741,824. Correct though they
are, using the binary value of GB is so well established in the
computer world that I consider using the decimal value of a billion to
be deceptive marketing.
 
A

Andy/Bandi

465 GB.

Qu0ll said:
What is the "real" capacity of the drive? It may be known as a 500GB but
it probably actually only has capacity for a lot less than that. One of
my drives is known as a 150GB drive but in reality it's only a 136GB
drive.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
G

Guest

Thanks for clearing up the mystery of why my so-called 250 GB drive (Vista
Business) is actually only 236 GB. I thought they just liked to round things
off to the nearest fifty. Wayne.
 
A

Adam Albright

Thanks for clearing up the mystery of why my so-called 250 GB drive (Vista
Business) is actually only 236 GB. I thought they just liked to round things
off to the nearest fifty. Wayne.

You can always tell how big a hard drive really is and what it will
hold by first going to the folder called computer in Windows Explorer,
click a hard drive shown there then right clicking on properties. That
will show you the capacity of the drive in BYTES, plus what is used
and free.

For example my G drive was sold as a 750 GB drive. Windows shows it's
capacity as 698 GB, so on the surface it looks like I was cheated out
of 52 GB. Not really. Because it can hold 750,153,728,000 bytes...
according to Windows.
 
Q

Qu0ll

You can always tell how big a hard drive really is and what it will
hold by first going to the folder called computer in Windows Explorer,
click a hard drive shown there then right clicking on properties. That
will show you the capacity of the drive in BYTES, plus what is used
and free.

For example my G drive was sold as a 750 GB drive. Windows shows it's
capacity as 698 GB, so on the surface it looks like I was cheated out
of 52 GB. Not really. Because it can hold 750,153,728,000 bytes...
according to Windows.

You were cheated. That's 750 _billion_ bytes not 750 _giga_ bytes as
advertised.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
G

Guest

Thank you Adam, you are correct. I have 249,997,291,520 bytes shown (which
is pretty darn close to the advertised 250 GB, but right beside it reads 232
GB.
-- I could swear it used to read 236 GB but that's a mystery for another day.
Why would Microsoft understate something?
Wayne L
 
Q

Qu0ll

Thank you Adam, you are correct. I have 249,997,291,520 bytes shown (which
is pretty darn close to the advertised 250 GB, but right beside it reads
232
GB.
-- I could swear it used to read 236 GB but that's a mystery for another
day.
Why would Microsoft understate something?

Microsoft haven't understated anything: the disk manufacturers _overstate_
the capacity. Just remember that there are 1024 bytes in a kilobyte and not
1000. To say that your disk is 250 _giga_ bytes (GB) is to say that it is
250 x 1024 x 1024 x 1024 = 268,435,456,000 bytes so you (and everyone else)
have been ripped off by 18,438,164,480 bytes. When disk manufacturers say
"giga" they mean "billion" but the two are actually quite different in
reality.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
G

Guest

To add to my previous post - I am certain now that when I bought my computer
it was 238 GB, then it was 236 GB and now it says 232 GB. The bytes remain
constant however. What does this mean? Thanks, Wayne
 
Q

Qu0ll

To add to my previous post - I am certain now that when I bought my
computer
it was 238 GB, then it was 236 GB and now it says 232 GB. The bytes remain
constant however. What does this mean? Thanks, Wayne

Can you read my posts? 250 billion bytes is 232.8 GB. It can't be anything
else.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
A

Adam Albright

You were cheated. That's 750 _billion_ bytes not 750 _giga_ bytes as
advertised.

You don't understand how the number is calculated. Heck, even after I
explained it to you. What does that suggest about you?
 
A

Adam Albright

Thank you Adam, you are correct. I have 249,997,291,520 bytes shown (which
is pretty darn close to the advertised 250 GB, but right beside it reads 232
GB.
-- I could swear it used to read 236 GB but that's a mystery for another day.
Why would Microsoft understate something?

It for sure can be a little confusing. You'll typically see slight
differences between different brands of hard drives and even between
identical models of the same drive. Aside from the marketing slight of
hand the formula is 1,024 bytes in every kilobyte. This has been the
standard since 1970. To keep the math simpler it is often rounded down
to 1,000, so if you have a 50K file you know that's roughly 50,000
bytes while in fact it actually is 51,200 bytes. As long as we're
playing number games, a lot of people may not know that a byte is
further divided into 8 bits.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/bytes.htm

Go to at least the second page of above article to get to the meat of
what's explained and how computers use the binary system to do ALL
they do.

Also keep in mind the size of the hard drive and how many platters it
has determines it's capacity. But wait... that's is it's raw
potential. To use the hard drive it needs to be formatted. Part of the
pre formatting process is to detect and prevent any bad sectors on the
hard drive from getting written to in order to protect the data that
will ultimately get written to it. This is the HARD formatting the
drive has already undergone before you touch the drive.

All drives regardless of brand right out of the box have some bad
sectors. They use to list how many bad sectors on the drive's label.
They don't typically do that anymore. That's just the nature of the
beast. That of course reduces the disc's capacity by a small degree
depending on how many bad sectors there are to begin with. If the
operating system or the drive's own logic detects some sectors have
gone bad once you start using it these sectors also become
unavailable. So over time, yes, how much your drive can hold can
shrink and this can be a warning sign the drive is starting to fail.

Finally installing the file handling system like NTFS eats up some
space as overhead. So if I remember correctly what Windows is
reporting when you look at it's total capacity in Explorer is how much
it can hold after bad sectors are factored in and after the file
system has been installed so it's a net, not gross figure that can
vary slightly drive to drive even if they are the same capacity.

That isn't the end of the story.

The way Windows is designed it can't write data to a hard drive that
only fills up part of a sector. It MUST fill out the sector. The
difference between a file's actual size (it's byte count or what's
really data) and what is left as free unfilled space in the sector is
called file slack. Click on any file's properties in Explorer and
you'll see two numbers. Size and size on disk.

For example I just clicked on a jpeg file. Windows reports it is
91,914 bytes, but is taking up 94,208 bytes on the disk. The
difference of 2,294 is file slack and can be bits of any file or
memory page that Windows just grabs at random to fill the sector out
every time you write data to the disk.

When you first format (soft format) a hard drive you can change the
size of sectors to reduce waste caused by file slack. You can make
sectors larger or smaller depending on the size of your typical files.
With today's large capacity drives generally not worth messing with
just bringing it up to illustrate a lot of the space taken up on your
hard drive is wasted and is just file slack. Just how it is. A typical
hard drive has up to 20% file slack. Another reason to defrag once in
awhile which will often recover some of the wasted space in addition
to resolving files being scattered in pieces all over your drive.
 
Q

Qu0ll

You don't understand how the number is calculated. Heck, even after I
explained it to you. What does that suggest about you?

Adam, who cares what it suggests about me? Please try to stick to a
professional discussion of the topic and avoid personal innuendo if you can
manage that.

Why don't you explain to me again how 750,153,728,000 bytes is really 750 GB
when 750 gigabytes actually calculates as 805,306,368,000 bytes?

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Thanks for clearing up the mystery of why my so-called 250 GB drive (Vista
Business) is actually only 236 GB. I thought they just liked to round things
off to the nearest fifty. Wayne.


You're welcome. Glad to help.
 
N

Neil

Qu0ll said:
To say that your disk is 250 _giga_ bytes (GB) is to say that it is 250 x
1024 x 1024 x 1024 = 268,435,456,000 bytes so you (and everyone else) have
been ripped off by 18,438,164,480 bytes. When disk manufacturers say
"giga" they mean "billion" but the two are actually quite different in
reality.

To me and the whole of the rest of the technical world (apart from that
section obsessed with binary) the prefices giga or G and 10^9 are completely
synonymous. Even those parts of the technical world which are obsessed with
binary cannot decide quite how obsessed they are. The k, M, G etc prefices
that they have borrowed are not always used to mean the same thing, hence
the difference between the way memory and hard disc manufacturers use GB.
Even the prefix k is not used consistently, e.g. it means 2^10 when used in
kB for memory, but 10^3 when used as kb for data transfer rates; and in the
same contexts M generally means 2^20 and 10^6.

I have to give the binary-philes their due though, they have started to
recognise that as higher powers of 10^3 or 2^10 are used the discrepancy
gets larger and larger and to avoid people feeling "ripped off" (as above)
they have invented some newer and moderately widespread notation to
distinguish between the two. Using the example above 250GB would indeed be
250e9B; to denote the quantity 250*2^30B they would write 250GiB. As I
understand it they voice that as, "Two hundred and fifty gibi-bytes."

Neil
 
G

Guest

-- Adam, thank you very much. I admit to being a novice but your explanation
was better than found in some books, which are over my head. I did notice all
those discrepancies you pointed out and wondered what they meant. Now I'm
beginning to see the light.
If Windows has one plus, it's making whizzes out of people by neccessity.
Also, I do keep checkng the box "Was this post helpful to you?" when such is
the case, as in this case, but it doesn't show. Thanks, Wayne
Wayne L
 
F

Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM

Qu0ll said:
Adam, who cares what it suggests about me? Please try to stick to a
professional discussion of the topic and avoid personal innuendo if you
can manage that.

Why don't you explain to me again how 750,153,728,000 bytes is really 750
GB when 750 gigabytes actually calculates as 805,306,368,000 bytes?


It depends on how you calculate capacity (really, how you define GB.

To the hard drive manufacturers, 1 GB = 10^9 bytes (1000^3)
To Windows 1 GB = 1024^3
This is well known by computer gurus and power users.
 
Q

Qu0ll

To the hard drive manufacturers, 1 GB = 10^9 bytes (1000^3)

This is probably just a marketing ploy to make their drives appear to have a
larger capacity than they really do. You know, "size matters" and all that.
To Windows 1 GB = 1024^3

As it should be everywhere.
This is well known by computer gurus and power users.

Indeed.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)
 
F

Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM

Qu0ll said:
Microsoft haven't understated anything: the disk manufacturers _overstate_
the capacity. Just remember that there are 1024 bytes in a kilobyte and
not 1000. To say that your disk is 250 _giga_ bytes (GB) is to say that
it is 250 x 1024 x 1024 x 1024 = 268,435,456,000 bytes so you (and
everyone else) have been ripped off by 18,438,164,480 bytes. When disk
manufacturers say "giga" they mean "billion" but the two are actually
quite different in reality.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
(e-mail address removed)
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)

Giga is defined by international standard to be 10^9. AFAIK only sections
of the computer industry violate this.
 

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