Seagate SeaTools for Windows. utter Rubish

I

impossible

Arno said:
Typically they will just replace the drive, testing drives that
come in is far too expensive.

No, it's not. They plug the drive in and run a 20-second pass-fail test,
like SeaTools.
No. And I have sucessfully RMAed drives that started to look like
they had a problem, but were still far from reaching the SMART
thresholds.

Point is, you have no idea what the SMART thresholds for a particular drive
are. You don't even know whether the raw number that tools like HD Sentinel
blindly read from SMART are actual event colunts or just some normalized
reference value.
You just need to find out how to coax a RMA
number from the webpage. On the last drive I just stated that
it had become inaccessible (which it had not).

Being clever gets you a bar-coded label to print and instructions on how to
pack your drive. To "coax" a replacement drive from the manufacturer
requires that the drive actually fail the manufacturer's test.
Finally one good pice of information from you. The only one so far.

Wasted your money on HD Sentinel, didn't you, chump?
 
I

impossible

Arno said:
Not necessarily. First, there are the manufacturer thresholds. Then
there are experience values that can be better than the thresholds,
for example for reallocated sectors and poending sectors. Also a
third party tool can have a database of disk pecularities.

You're reading this promo directly off the HD Sentinel website, aren't you?
Interpretation of SMART data has been done in this group for years.
Badly.

There is not reason at all to put this into a tool.

Those tools belong to the manufacturers.
 
S

Stephen Worthington

No, it's not. They plug the drive in and run a 20-second pass-fail test,
like SeaTools.


Point is, you have no idea what the SMART thresholds for a particular drive
are. You don't even know whether the raw number that tools like HD Sentinel
blindly read from SMART are actual event colunts or just some normalized
reference value.


Being clever gets you a bar-coded label to print and instructions on how to
pack your drive. To "coax" a replacement drive from the manufacturer
requires that the drive actually fail the manufacturer's test.

Actually, if you are dealing with a reputable retailer, you will get a
forward replacement for your drive so that you can copy all the data
onto the new one.

I would guess that you buy from the wrong shops since you do not seem
to have ever experienced this.
Wasted your money on HD Sentinel, didn't you, chump?

You can use the trial version.
 
J

Justin Goldberg

In practice, you can RMA any drive, even one that is perfectly fine.

Also certain numbers of reallocated sectod do signal a failing drive,
and a steady increase over a certain rate does to. Not with maximum
reliability, but SMART also is about early warning, so a bit of
paranoia is a good idea.



Not at all. Seem to me you have limited experience with SMART.

Arno

Google's paper, Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population:
http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf states:

Our results conï¬rm the ï¬ndings of previous smaller population studies
that suggest that some of the SMART parameters are well-correlated
with higher failure probabilities. We ï¬nd, for example, that after
their ï¬rst scan error, drives are 39 times more likely to fail within
60 days than drives with no such errors. First errors in
reallocations, offline reallocations, and probational counts are also
strongly correlated to higher failure probabilities. Despite those
strong correlations, we ï¬nd that failure prediction models based on
SMART parameters alone are likely to be severely limited in their
prediction accuracy, given that a large fraction of our failed drives
have shown no SMART error signals whatsoever. This result suggests
that SMART models are more useful in predicting trends for large
aggregate populations than for individual components. It also suggests
that powerful predictive models need to make use of signals beyond
those provided by SMART.

So S.M.A.R.T. is really not proven technology, like IBM's glass
platter drives. [1] Anyone else concur?


[1] http://www.datacent.com/datarecovery/hdd/ibm
 
A

Arno

No, it's not. They plug the drive in and run a 20-second pass-fail test,
like SeaTools.

I have evidence to the contrary for Maxtor and Seagate. However
they may do spot tests or test all drives from some countries or
the like. Mine were obviopusly not tested.
Point is, you have no idea what the SMART thresholds for a particular drive
are. You don't even know whether the raw number that tools like HD Sentinel
blindly read from SMART are actual event colunts or just some normalized
reference value.

You have no clue, it seems. The thresholds are reported
with the values by the drive. Have you even once looked at a full
SMART status report? Eithe you have not or you did not understand
what you were seeing.
Being clever gets you a bar-coded label to print and instructions on how to
pack your drive. To "coax" a replacement drive from the manufacturer
requires that the drive actually fail the manufacturer's test.

So? I got two replacement drives that way. One were my own diagnistic
was wring and the drive was perfectly fine (found that out later) and
one were the drive was far from failing according to SMART, but I
had seen the pattern before.

Wasted your money on HD Sentinel, didn't you, chump?

No. It is good value. I use it only to get data from USB drives,
since I git tired of removing them manually every few months in
order to use the smartmontools on them.

Arno
 
A

Arno

Google's paper, Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population:
http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf states:
Our results con?rm the ?ndings of previous smaller population studies
that suggest that some of the SMART parameters are well-correlated
with higher failure probabilities. We ?nd, for example, that after
their ?rst scan error, drives are 39 times more likely to fail within
60 days than drives with no such errors. First errors in
reallocations, of?ine reallocations, and probational counts are also
strongly correlated to higher failure probabilities. Despite those
strong correlations, we ?nd that failure prediction models based on
SMART parameters alone are likely to be severely limited in their
prediction accuracy, given that a large fraction of our failed drives
have shown no SMART error signals whatsoever. This result suggests
that SMART models are more useful in predicting trends for large
aggregate populations than for individual components. It also suggests
that powerful predictive models need to make use of signals beyond
those provided by SMART.
So S.M.A.R.T. is really not proven technology, like IBM's glass
platter drives. [1] Anyone else concur?

I disagree. SMART has limits. It will only predict problems in
some cases. Still better than no SMART. It also is a good tool
to diagnose a drive that already shows signs of failure. And
it gives you a generic way to test disks.

Why do people assume SMART is 100% reliable? It is not
and was never meant or claimed to be.

There is one more thing: The Google study has some good data,
but also has methodical flaws and flaws in the interpretation.
Personally I am surprised at the low quality of the analysis.

Arno
 
A

Arno

You're reading this promo directly off the HD Sentinel website, aren't you?
Those tools belong to the manufacturers.

You are trying the usual dominance game. Pathetic. As you are
obvioulsy not interested in facts, I will stop answering you.
Not many overestimates their own competence as badly as
you do, but you are not the first in this group.

Arno
 
A

Arno

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Franc Zabkar said:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:32:25 -0400, Mike Ruskai
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard and
composed:
I'll bet the latter had a shorted TVS diode across either the +12V or
+5V rail. If your PSU is OK, then you can desolder this diode and the
drive should work OK without it. This type of fault is discussed quite
frequently in the HD forums.

Incidentially every halfway well designed PSU will not be killed by
this fault, but will just switch off.

Arno
 
O

Oscar

impossible said:
No, it's not. They plug the drive in and run a 20-second pass-fail
test, like SeaTools.


Point is, you have no idea what the SMART thresholds for a particular
drive are. You don't even know whether the raw number that tools like
HD Sentinel blindly read from SMART are actual event colunts or just
some normalized reference value.


Being clever gets you a bar-coded label to print and instructions on
how to pack your drive. To "coax" a replacement drive from the
manufacturer requires that the drive actually fail the manufacturer's
test.

Wrong, as always, most obviously when the test cant even see the drive.
 
F

Franc Zabkar

You're reading this promo directly off the HD Sentinel website, aren't you?

Here's one example where experience is important. What does a cooked
value of 60 for Seagate's Seek_Error_Rate attribute mean? The answer
is that SMART is reporting 0 seek errors in 1 million seeks. A new
drive begins life with this number and either improves or degrades as
more data are accumulated. One would usually expect that a normalised
value of 60 was relatively bad, especially when the raw value could be
as much as 1,000,000, and the threshold is 30. However, in this
particular case 60 represents a perfect score.
Those tools belong to the manufacturers.

The open source smartmontools project is doing a good job of
interpreting out-of-the-ordinary SMART data. HD Sentinel is somewhat
different in that the author's database, and interpretation thereof,
are not made public.

- Franc Zabkar
 
F

Franc Zabkar

There is one more thing: The Google study has some good data,
but also has methodical flaws and flaws in the interpretation.
Personally I am surprised at the low quality of the analysis.

It's a pity that Google don't make their HD database available for
peer review. It would be a very valuable resource. Maybe the drive
manufacturers could benefit from it.

- Franc Zabkar
 
I

impossible

Stephen Worthington said:
Actually, if you are dealing with a reputable retailer, you will get a
forward replacement for your drive so that you can copy all the data
onto the new one.

I would guess that you buy from the wrong shops since you do not seem
to have ever experienced this.

I've never has a problem with drive manufacturers. This being the 21st
century, they make it a breeze to process legitimate warranty claims
online.
You can use the trial version.

Wasted time is wasted money.
 
I

impossible

Arno said:
I have evidence to the contrary for Maxtor and Seagate. However
they may do spot tests or test all drives from some countries or
the like. Mine were obviopusly not tested.

What evidence do you have exactly?
You have no clue, it seems. The thresholds are reported
with the values by the drive. Have you even once looked at a full
SMART status report? Eithe you have not or you did not understand
what you were seeing.



So? I got two replacement drives that way. One were my own diagnistic
was wring and the drive was perfectly fine (found that out later) and
one were the drive was far from failing according to SMART, but I
had seen the pattern before.

If you used HD Sentinel to read the SMART data, you have no clue what
condition the drives were in.
No. It is good value. I use it only to get data from USB drives,
since I git tired of removing them manually every few months in
order to use the smartmontools on them.

How can it possibly be "good value" when it just spits out boilerplate
"analysis" based on a wild guess about what the SMART data is saying.
 
R

Rod Speed

DevilsPGD wrote
Look at RAID, or some other system that replicates
in real time if your concern is drive failure.

I prefer to get rid of drives with lots of reallocated sectors instead.
 
M

~misfit~

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Arno wrote:

I have "impossible" killfiled and it's home group, nz.comp is a much better
place without it.
No. It is good value. I use it only to get data from USB drives,
since I git tired of removing them manually every few months in
order to use the smartmontools on them.

What version of HD Sentinel are you running Arno? My (oldish now) version
doesn't do well with USB drives. However, I notice how badly a lot of 2.5"
(USB powered) drives do when I plug them into an ATA controller and look at
them with HDS. Semms a lot of USB powered drives simply don't get enough
power, causing all sorts of problems. At least IME.

Cheers,
 
M

~misfit~

Somewhere said:
Somewhere on teh intarwebs Arno wrote:

I have "impossible" killfiled and it's home group, nz.comp is a much
better place without it.

What version of HD Sentinel are you running Arno? My (oldish now)
version doesn't do well with USB drives.

D'oh! I have version 2.81 now, having hit the "check for new version"
button. <g>

It still doesn't pick up data for the HDD I just plugged into the USB port.
However, I will try others as time goes by....

Cheers,
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Somewhere on teh intarwebs ~misfit~ wrote:

D'oh! I have version 2.81 now, having hit the "check for new version"
button. <g>

It still doesn't pick up data for the HDD I just plugged into the USB port.

What Vendor ID and Product ID do you see when you interrogate it with
Microsoft's UVCView:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/USB_IDs/UVCView.x86.exe

Here are Windows versions of smartmontools:
http://smartmontools-win32.dyndns.org/smartmontools/

Smartmontools now supports several USB-SATA/PATA bridges including
JMicron, Cypress, Sunplus, Oxford, Initio:
http://smartmontools.wiki.sourceforge.net/page/diff/overview_USB-Support?v=240471

- Franc Zabkar
 
M

~misfit~

Somewhere said:
What Vendor ID and Product ID do you see when you interrogate it with
Microsoft's UVCView:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/USB_IDs/UVCView.x86.exe

Here are Windows versions of smartmontools:
http://smartmontools-win32.dyndns.org/smartmontools/

Smartmontools now supports several USB-SATA/PATA bridges including
JMicron, Cypress, Sunplus, Oxford, Initio:
http://smartmontools.wiki.sourceforge.net/page/diff/overview_USB-Support?v=240471

Thanks Franc, handy stuff.
 

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