Sarbanes-Oxley Section 404

D

Denise

I am posting this in the hopes that someone at Microsoft
will see it and add a new Excel newsgroup for those of us
involved with Sarbanes-Oxley compliance.

How many of you are affected by SOX Section 404? What have
been your experiences? Have your auditors required
anything you think is strange or off the wall?

In larger companies, is the attestation of spreadsheet
data integrity handled by someone in IT, or Finance &
Accounting? Has anyone tried any of the SOX solutions on
the market? Which ones do you like, despise, or tolerate?

I have more questions (and very specific ones), but this
should be enough to get things jump-started.

Best,

Denise.
 
D

Denise

-----Original Message-----
what is sarbanes-oxley compliance?!?!?! SOX Section 404?!?


Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 was passed largely in reaction
to the Enron scandals. It governs all financial reporting
for publicly traded companies, and goes into effect for
most companies this year.

Section 404 is the "IT" element of SOX that requires CEOs
and CFOs to attest that all information flowing into
financial statements and affecting a company's financial
position is accurate. It primarily hits companies that do
any financial calculations (e.g. allowance for bad debt,
fixed asset depreciation, etc) on off-book Excel
spreadsheets and then book those calculations via journal
entry into their accounting software.

The main example given for the necessity of Section 404 is
the software company Baan that had an Excel spreadsheet
error that eventually forced them into bankruptcy.

But it has wide implications for any publicly traded
company -- everything from spreadsheet security, to
concepts such as "only one version of the truth" (ie, not
having multiple spreadsheets generating the same financial
data), to the requirement to having formulas independently
verified for accuracy.

It SHOULD end up being a good thing for anyone who is
very, very proficient at Excel.

For more information about it, see Computerworld's special
online section at:
www.computerworld.com/news/special/pages/0,10911,2025,00.ht
ml.

To read it straight from the horse's mouth, see the SEC's
final ruling re SOX Section 404 at:
www.sec.gov/rules/final/33-8238.htm.

PS: While SOX only applies to publicly traded companies
for now, I would not be surprised to see some of its
elements -- including Section 404 -- applied to privately
held corporations that are subject to annual audits. So
much of SOX is plain old common sense, procedures that
should be in place anyway.
 
E

eluehmann

Sarbanes is a big accounting mess... If you don't know what it is yo
probably don't have to... I have seen a sarbanes module of Microsoft
website but it was really not the quality I expect out of microsoft.
assume they are working on one though.
what is sarbanes-oxley compliance?!?!?! SOX Sectio
404?!?[color=blue[/QUOTE]
 
D

Dave Peterson

You may want to post a specific question or two right here.

If you get good answers, maybe post more????
 
D

Denise

First question: Does your company's IT department get
involved with verifying spreadsheet data integrity, or
someone in accounting? Who is responsible for checking
formulas and tracking precedents and dependents?

Second question: Since one of the big issues is attesting
to the validity of financial data, do you separate out
essential and non-essential data into separate workbooks,
or do your managers merely sign off on the worksheets that
affect financials and ignore informational worksheets?

Third question: How do you handle data certification when
a worksheet is too big to print? Here the CFO wants these
printouts signed by the division manager. But we cannot
print out some of the most critical reports.
 
D

Dave Peterson

#1. IT doesn't know about most of the spreadsheets that my department uses. I
know that they develop workbooks for other departments, but I don't know how
much of a review even those workbooks go through.

The developer is responsible, but there's help from anyone who uses them. If
one of the users finds an error, they'll go back to the developer.

I've never had anyone point at a formula and even use the word precedent or
dependent. Most users don't look at the formulas. I'm kind of happy when they
actually look at the results!


#2. I don't have that many workbooks that do much with financials. But I do
have some that are used for building pricing quotations. The prices are
reviewed by my manager (mostly) along with another manager.

I know that my manager is much more concerned with the three pricing worksheets
in one workbook than the interface worksheet on which the users enter data.


#3. I try to stay away from printing worksheets. Many of the values that
appear are subject to change depending on values entered in the workbook.

If I have to print, I'll use 11x17 and print as many sheets as it takes.


As an aside, I was snooping at some of the development efforts of our IT
department. There were lots of words describing department workbooks. None of
them were flattering.

I think that many in the IT department would like to see 1979 again--where all
the data was housed somewhere in a mainframe and users had to write
specifications and submit them to the IT staff to extract any report they
wanted. Then the user had to develop a business case and wait until IT could
schedule that project.

I understand the thinking, but it sure looks like excel is the language of
business--no matter how weak the controls are.
 
D

DaveH

Denise

I would like to respond to this message from the perspective of the
pharmaceutical industry, a heavily regulated industry where the
requirements that SOX seems to be demanding have been in place for
many years - I'm sure that the are processes that can be transferred
from pharma to the financial industry in order to meet the latest
requirements.

#1 In Pharma the MD is ultimately responsible for ensuring all
computerised systems that collect/calculate data are fully validated
and controlled. (If he/she doesnt then the ultimate sanction is a
prison sentence!). This requirement is typically passed down to the
QA / IT and Operational departments. Spreadsheet "control" may be the
responsibility of IT - this would involve maintaining an inventory of
sytems, users, access rights etc and ensuring that only validated
systems are available to users. Spreadsheet Validation would be down
to the owner, and would typically be approved by the QA department.
Validation must produce documented evidence that the spreadsheet
operates as expected and that all users are trained in its use
(Specifications, Test Protocols, formal release notices and standard
operating procedures). Procedures must also be in place to remedy any
errors via a formal change control procedure.

#2 Essential data (GxP in Pharma terms!) is often separated from
non-essential data but this is not a mandatory requirement. What is
mandatory (and difficult to implement in Excel) is that all data entry
should be audited - ie you must have a record of who entered the data
and when. An additional requirement is that ALL changes to data must
be audited and a record maintained of who, why, when together with old
+ new data values. The validation effort would be expected to
demonstrate the security of the system and to ensure that the audit
trail cannot be altered.
As far as approving data goes, using the example quoted, its probably
only necessary to approve the three pricing worksheets - the rational
being that the interface workbook would be fully audited (ie
traceable) and the Validation has proved that the financials are all
correctly transferred/calculated.

#3 If you see some of the print-outs from Pharma, there is no such
thing as "too big to print". What you must ensure though is that the
print-out will pass the 'drop' test - every page must have a unique
document number, be labeled 'Page x of y' and preferably include the
time of print-out.
An acceptable alternative (from a legal point of view!) is to
electronically sign the spreadsheet, in Pharma this is governed by 21
CFR Part 11, which specifies an array of technical and procedural
controls on the application of the ES.

More information can be found at http://www.spreadsheetvalidation.com/
, this site also details a commercial add-in to put all the necessary
security and audit trails around Excel. I'm sure you will also be able
to find external help to implement the necessary procedural controls
to meet the regulatory demands (these will probably require much more
effort than the technical side!)

Regards
Dave
 
D

Denise

<<>#1. IT doesn't know about most of the spreadsheets
that my department uses. I know that they develop
workbooks for other departments, but I don't know how much
of a review even those workbooks go through.

The developer is responsible, but there's help from anyone
who uses them. If one of the users finds an error,
they'll go back to the developer.

I've never had anyone point at a formula and even use the
word precedent or dependent. Most users don't look at the
formulas. I'm kind of happy when they actually look at
the results!>>

Dave, I completely understand the "happy" when people look
at the results, because I believe that too often
management wants "dashboard" reports that are meaningless
and don't really assist in decision-making. So when I get
real questions off the reports I generate, I'm happy too.

But I think SOX is going to require some sort of
independent audit of worksheets (you can't audit
yourself). IMO, it makes more sense for IT people to audit
worksheets, looking for technical accuracy and worrying
less about presentation or content. But that (to me)
logical move meets with a great deal of resistance, both
from Finance & Accounting and from IT staffs.

Basically, SOX is telling management (CEOs and CFOs) that
they HAVE to ask questions of report generators and not
accept financial data as gospel.

<< #2. I don't have that many workbooks that do much with
financials. But I do have some that are used for building
pricing quotations. The prices are reviewed by my manager
(mostly) along with another manager.

I know that my manager is much more concerned with the
three pricing worksheets in one workbook than the
interface worksheet on which the users enter data. >>

It would be interesting to know whether SOX auditors
consider pricing quotes as "generation of financial
information." Since the quotes drive future profits, I
could see a strong argument for these reports' being
subject to SOX Section 404. Keep us posted!

<< #3. I try to stay away from printing worksheets. Many
of the values that appear are subject to change depending
on values entered in the workbook.

If I have to print, I'll use 11x17 and print as many
sheets as it takes.>>

We never printed before SOX either, but our CFOs now want
the division managers to sign off on hard copies of Excel
reports to minimize their exposure. That's added a whole
new dimension to report generation.

And frankly, one I welcome. Till now, management has
tended to add more and more onto a report, until the
report becomes totally unwieldy with no overview possible.
If you cannot easily trace precedents and dependents, you
cannot guarantee a report's validity. Making a report
printable is one way to ensure that you can prevent it
from becoming 125 columns wide and 5000 rows long.

<< As an aside, I was snooping at some of the development
efforts of our IT department. There were lots of words
describing department workbooks. None of them were
flattering.

I think that many in the IT department would like to see
1979 again--where all the data was housed somewhere in a
mainframe and users had to write specifications and submit
them to the IT staff to extract any report they wanted.
Then the user had to develop a business case and wait
until IT could schedule that project.

I understand the thinking, but it sure looks like excel is
the language of business--no matter how weak the controls
are. >>

What I hope will come out of this: Generation of critical
data -- defined as data that hits balance sheet and income
statement -- from primary accounting software, coupled
with mandatory (mandatory if only by user demand, and not
by law) interface to Excel for financial ANALYSIS... the
what-ifs, and such.

Basically, the model that QuickBooks by Intuit employs
should become industry standard for accounting software.
You can export any financial report directly from QB to
Excel (it even preserves subtotals and filters, so you can
unsubtotal and unfilter if you wish) and manipulate it to
your heart's content.

I sometimes think that the ERP software people can be a
bit too arrogant at times and not provide that ready
interface between Excel and their software, to keep people
tied to their product. But it ends up backfiring, because
when you can't do something you need to do in their
software, you wind up generating it offbook. Which brings
us right back to Sarbanes-Oxley.
 
D

Denise

<< Denise

I would like to respond to this message from the
perspective of the pharmaceutical industry, a heavily
regulated industry where the requirements that SOX seems
to be demanding have been in place for many years - I'm
sure that the are processes that can be transferred from
pharma to the financial industry in order to meet the
latest requirements. >>

Dave, I printed out your entire response for my SOX
folder. Really good stuff.

<< #1 In Pharma the MD is ultimately responsible for
ensuring all computerised systems that collect/calculate
data are fully validated and controlled. (If he/she doesnt
then the ultimate sanction is a prison sentence!). This
requirement is typically passed down to the QA / IT and
Operational departments. Spreadsheet "control" may be the
responsibility of IT - this would involve maintaining an
inventory of sytems, users, access rights etc and ensuring
that only validated systems are available to users.

Spreadsheet Validation would be down to the owner, and
would typically be approved by the QA department.
Validation must produce documented evidence that the
spreadsheet operates as expected and that all users are
trained in its use (Specifications, Test Protocols, formal
release notices and standard operating procedures).
Procedures must also be in place to remedy any errors via
a formal change control procedure. >>

I would be willing to wager good money that these exact
standards are imposed in financial areas. I think that the
standards are in flux, despite the SEC's "Final Ruling".
But I also believe that the standards will become more
rigid, not less.

Incidentally, the penalty for noncompliance for CEOs and
CFOs is similarly jail time. Why else would there be such
a panic to comply? ;-)

So, question for you: If IT is ultimately responsible for
spreadsheet control, does that mean that your IT
department has an Excel expert on staff? And how does IT
ensure the security of the spreadsheets, when Excel is
notoriously easy to burglarize?

And what kind of indemnification is offered to people who
sign off on the various levels of report generation? I ask
because one topic of conversation has been whether some
type of D&O liability insurance is required for non-D&O,
ie, extending D&O liability coverage to mid-level managers.

Also, who is responsible for maintaining the formal change
control procedures? And (more importantly for me), how do
you enforce the no-change rule once a report has been
validated? (I have grown extraordinarily weary of managers
who don't understand that when you change a "little" thing
about a massive report, it has massive consequences on
procedures and makes the report itself unreliable, because
you aren't comparing similar data from period to period.)

<< #2 Essential data (GxP in Pharma terms!) is often
separated from non-essential data but this is not a
mandatory requirement. What is mandatory (and difficult
to implement in Excel) is that all data entry should be
audited - ie you must have a record of who entered the
data and when. An additional requirement is that ALL
changes to data must be audited and a record maintained of
who, why, when together with old + new data values. The
validation effort would be expected to demonstrate the
security of the system and to ensure that the audit trail
cannot be altered. >>

This is exactly one point that sticks out like a sore
thumb in my SOX analysis. How CAN we "force" people who
change reports to document their changes? For me, this is
a huge Excel weakness that's got to be addressed, and if
SOX forces the change, bless SOX.

I have to generate an enormous monthly report -- 22 MB,
can't be emailed even zipped. The manager I generate the
report for changes it every month, and "forgets" to save
the changed report to the central file. It's a report that
is built on top of the prior month's report, so it's
critical that any changes made be identified as to who
made them and why, and that the changes be carried forward
into the next month. I have tried all kinds of nice
wheedling and cannot get her to understand why it's
critical to preserve data integrity. SOX was created
precisely for managers like her. Now it's a matter of
getting Excel to help me make "her" SOX compliant.

<< As far as approving data goes, using the example
quoted, its probably only necessary to approve the three
pricing worksheets - the rational being that the interface
workbook would be fully audited (ie traceable) and the
Validation has proved that the financials are all
correctly transferred/calculated. >>

But isn't that a dangerous assumption? Just asking.

<< #3 If you see some of the print-outs from Pharma, there
is no such thing as "too big to print". What you must
ensure though is that the print-out will pass the 'drop'
test - every page must have a unique document number, be
labeled 'Page x of y' and preferably include the time of
print-out.

An acceptable alternative (from a legal point of view!) is
to electronically sign the spreadsheet, in Pharma this is
governed by 21 CFR Part 11, which specifies an array of
technical and procedural controls on the application of
the ES.

More information can be found at
http://www.spreadsheetvalidation.com/, this site also
details a commercial add-in to put all the necessary
security and audit trails around Excel. I'm sure you will
also be able to find external help to implement the
necessary procedural controls to meet the regulatory
demands (these will probably require much more effort than
the technical side!) >>

Dave, EXTREMELY helpful. Thanks!

For the record, I am one person who fully believes that
SOX was long overdue. I don't think it's a negative thing
at all. I see it as imposing standards that should have
been put into place voluntarily. I see it as a speed limit
law. If every driver drove responsibly, we would not need
speed limits. But since we don't live in a perfect world,
we do need speed limits.

Best regards,
Denise.
 
A

Arie Vet

Hello Denise,
How many of you are affected by SOX Section 404? What have
been your experiences? Have your auditors required
anything you think is strange or off the wall?

As for 4 weeks ago I had not any clue about SOx. But even in the
Netherlands it's required for US companies. And therefore we I've been
asked to assist with the implementation of SOx section 404. And yes,
it's a perfect world - on paper. It's a company which makes software
for costumers in relation to a complete print/product environment. The
greatest problem over here is the 'request for change' part (cobit 16
& 18) which forces programmers to work 'by the book'. But SOx leaves a
'crash route' to make a fast change in software possible

At this moment an audit at our plant has a good result, I'm
implementing the procedures now, and managing the system with getting
lots of evidence.

The programming department have been started now working by the SOx
rules, and it will take some time before they have adopted the ideas.
In larger companies, is the attestation of spreadsheet
data integrity handled by someone in IT, or Finance &
Accounting? Has anyone tried any of the SOX solutions on
the market? Which ones do you like, despise, or tolerate?

This is a serious problem I've been facing right now. We have a lot of
excel sheets as a spin-off from the SAP applications, like
cost-calculations, fee-calculations and so forth. This leaves a
possibility for fraud, when you follow SOx. Problem is that for each
new costumer and calculation the sheet is copied. And nobody controls
if the used formula's are still function the right way..

So yes - we are looking for a kind of repositiry for excel sheets.
Development by a programmer - used by the departments, without the
possibility to change them, and a digital sign-off...

And yes again - I've not found anything, yet.. so I would like to know
if you've found anything.

Best regards,

Arie Vey
 

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