Same old Windows... some things broken in XP and earlier STILL broke.

[Adam Albright]

With each new version of Windows you hope old problems get fixed. No
such luck for many things. Consider the following case study regarding
one of Microsoft so-called "partners"; Roxio.

On Februrary 21st, Microsoft released a list of 800 "certified"
applications that were "throughly tested". Roxio didn't make the list
for certified or even the lessor list of applications that have
"earned" the Microsoft "works with Vista" logo. Neither has Adobe, but
that's another story. In fact there is a virtual who's who of big
software developers that haven't made the "approved" Vista list.

The box Roxio's Easy Media Creator 9 Suite comes in does proudly
display a "compatiable with Vista" sticker. I guess causing a
inescapable application hang is considered "compatiable", after all
Windows frequently did this in older versions for just about every
application that hangs. This really isn't about stickers or marketing
hype, rather things Microsoft seems unable to fix; applications
hanging and refusing to shut them down for example.

I've used Easy Suite 9 for a couple days now, so far I like it and it
seemed stable until today when it decided to hang for no reason. You
know the drill, go to Task Manager and hope Windows with force a shut
down of whatever application is hanging. That's suppose to be a
"feature". I try. Windows brings up the dialog box telling you what
you already know... "The application is not responding. The program
may respond again if you wait. Do you want to end this process?" Well
duh, yes, I want to end the process and so I click the end process
button. Nothing happens. I shouldn't say nothing, because as before in
earlier versions of Windows the Task Manager window show more and more
CPU useage. It climbs and climbs and now it is in 70% range where
before while the appliction was hung and I left it hang, the CPU
useage was just 5%. So obviously Windows, not the hung application is
eating up CPU cycles like crazy. It always does when you ask it do to
something it doesn't seem to know how to do. Five minutes later,
application is still hung. Can't shut it down and Windows keeps
pouring more resources into trying.

Here we go again. I'm rendering a video. That takes time. LOTS of
time. I'm ALWAYS rendering a video, that's what I do! Already invested
5 hours into this project. I can't see because the Roxio window is
hogging most of my desktop. Oh look, something happened. Windows
cleared the Roxio window. I don't mean it closed it or shut the
application down like I asked five minutes ago, no, it literally
painted the Roxio window a solid white. That's better, thanks Vista,
now I cant' even try to drag that window out of the way since brain
dead Vista removed the window's title bar and everything else.

So in five years development time Microsoft figured out how to prevent
you from running you applications with it's UAC permissions madness,
but still hasn't figured out how a OS can really SHUT DOWN a
application that's hung. Too funny for words. Really it is.

Remember, a OS controls or is suppose to... what applications get
access to; your CPU, hard drive, memory, etc.. So any OS, even Windows
should, with no trouble, any time, when you tell it to, be able to
shut down any appliation. Right?

Wrong. Not Vista. Not XP, Windows could never manage this simple task
with any degree of confidence. It always has been a crap shoot.
Sometimes it works, other times not.

MVP's wonder why customers get pissed at Windows. Duh! So again, for
the fourth time since installing Vista a week ago I had a video
rendering for hours, then run into a problem with another application
and the only way I can proceed is force a hard reboot by hitting the
power button on the PC and again lose the work I was doing and also
risk corupting more files or the hard drive itself. Five years in
development, hundreds of millions invested in "research" and Windows
is still too damn dumb to know how to really "shut down" a hung
application when it ask if it can and you tell it to proceed. Too
funny, really it is. I'm waiting for Apple to make a funny commerical
about this Vista "feature". Tell Windows to shut down a hung
application and just watch at it tries and tries and just can't.

 

[Conor]

On Februrary 21st, Microsoft released a list of 800 "certified"
applications that were "throughly tested". Roxio didn't make the list
for certified or even the lessor list of applications that have
"earned" the Microsoft "works with Vista" logo.

Good. It's a stinking pile of shite that infests every part of your OS.

 

[Robert Moir]

Remember, a OS controls or is suppose to... what applications get
access to; your CPU, hard drive, memory, etc.. So any OS, even Windows
should, with no trouble, any time, when you tell it to, be able to
shut down any appliation. Right?

Wrong. Not Vista. Not XP, Windows could never manage this simple task
with any degree of confidence. It always has been a crap shoot.
Sometimes it works, other times not.

Trouble is with your example problem app here. It's not a traditional
application - to do what it does it has to install drivers and change the
way the operating system works in order to integrate itself into the way
stuff is routed around the system with regard to burning disks.

Same sort of thing as AV software - you can call it an application, but
parts of it alter and extend how the operating system work.

Please note I'm not defending this behaviour. It's a right pain in the hoop
and annoys me too. I'm just offering an explanation as to why some apps seem
to always take the OS with them when they fly south for the winter.

I'm waiting for Apple to make a funny commerical
about this Vista "feature". Tell Windows to shut down a hung
application and just watch at it tries and tries and just can't.

It would be somewhat hypocritical of them to do so as this is a problem on
Apple computers too at times. Having said that, a little bit of hypocracy
hasn't stopped Apple beforehand, so they probably won't let it worry them
now either!

 

[Mossie]

Trouble is with your example problem app here. It's not a traditional
application - to do what it does it has to install drivers and change the
way the operating system works in order to integrate itself into the way
stuff is routed around the system with regard to burning disks.

I've had this happen with Firefox, Thunderbird and even Outlook, all
pretty traditional apps. The App hangs, I open the task manager (If I
can, sometimes it's not possible) select the offending app, click end
task and wait, and wait, and wait and......

 

[Robert Moir]

I've had this happen with Firefox, Thunderbird and even Outlook, all
pretty traditional apps. The App hangs, I open the task manager (If I
can, sometimes it's not possible) select the offending app, click end
task and wait, and wait, and wait and......

I've had it happen on XP with Outlook a lot but then I use ActiveSync
(drivers again!) and this is about as stable as a drunk juggler on a
unicycle with a flat tyre.

Firefox has been quite well behaved for me. Not that it hasn't shot itself a
few times in use, it wouldn't be software if it was perfect but it hasn't
taken anything else out with it.

For me the biggest problem with Vista has been basic stability and
performance issues in things like Explorer. I wonder if issues here could
undermine apps?

 

[Richard Urban]

Right click on the process in task manager and choose "end process tree". I
have never had this fail to end a process - when pressing the "end process"
button doesn't work.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[johnm]

Right click on the process in task manager and choose "end process tree".
I have never had this fail to end a process - when pressing the "end
process" button doesn't work.

I have... especially if the process had anything to do with a little
company named Symantec.
Roxio, IMHO is a close 2nd to them, if for no other reason, than the shear
amount of crapola that gets added to your system.
Last time I tried a Roxio app, I ended up restoring from a backup, it hosed
my system that bad.

Sometime when you have an afternoon to kill, search your registry for
"Roxio".
bring a lunch.

 

[Richard Urban]

Ever hear of "custom install". Put on only that which YOU choose to be
installed.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[johnm]

Ever hear of "custom install". Put on only that which YOU choose to be
installed.

lol, you're so precious...

 

[Richard Urban]

I install about 1/3rd of what a standard install would entail. If you have
no intention of ever using the complete package - why install the complete
package.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Adam Albright]

I have... especially if the process had anything to do with a little
company named Symantec.
Roxio, IMHO is a close 2nd to them, if for no other reason, than the shear
amount of crapola that gets added to your system.
Last time I tried a Roxio app, I ended up restoring from a backup, it hosed
my system that bad.

Sometime when you have an afternoon to kill, search your registry for
"Roxio".
bring a lunch.

I sure have too. Of course I tried to stop by also clicking on the end
process tree option. Vista just stuck its tongue out at me and did
nothing.

Having read a couple dozen posts from Urban he seems very
inexpereinced, but none the less has the typical MVP arrogance.

 

[Adam Albright]

lol, you're so precious...

Clowns like Urban that keep making useless suggestions are why people
get pissed-off at MVP's. The irony... Microsoft should have applied
the choose to install only what you wish to use option when it came to
User Account Control. LOL!

Talk about a misnamed featurel USER control. Priceless!

 

[Adam Albright]

I've had this happen with Firefox, Thunderbird and even Outlook, all
pretty traditional apps. The App hangs, I open the task manager (If I
can, sometimes it's not possible) select the offending app, click end
task and wait, and wait, and wait and......

Sadly Windows has never known how to properly shut down a hung
application. It isn't just bloated and convoluted applications like
Nero or Easy Writer either like you pointed out. Often Windows hangs
on one of its own applets, Windows Explorer being infamous for this
bad behavior.

To continue my story, when I shut down last night or I should restate
that to say when I TRIED to shutdown, Vista hung again. It let me
click on the Start Button then click shut down, but it just kept
displaying the spinning circle icon which replaces the old hour glass
showing this on a desktop it already cleared. So for 30 minutes I was
treated to a blank desktop decorated only with the spinning circle
icon mindlessly spinning on and on in the middle of the desktop with
the keyboard now locked and useless.

I waited long enough so again tired of waiting for Vista to shut down,
so forced to hit the power button on the PC to actually shut down.

Windows did restart normally this morning, never mentioned there was a
hang last night, didn't go to safe mode, didn't write anything to the
Event log, didn't tell me it had a nervous breakdown and recovered
like it has many times under XP. Vista just hung and I guess wanted to
forget it did last night. <wink>

I got to remember this is the most "improved" and most "tested"
version of Windows ever. So I guess when Vista hangs, can't recover on
its own, and you got to force a shut down by hitting the power switch
Vista now just plays dumb and pretends the malfunction never happened.

 

[Adam Albright]

More lame garbage from a lame poster. Roxio is a complete piece of garbage
and the fact that you use it explains a lot about your "level" of
competence. That's not to say "innocence" Roxio victims are also wrapped up
into this. This only applies to you because of your self proclaimed SUPER
USER status.

Sorry, serious software isn't for kids like you. I will admit that
Roxio has some issues with drivers in the past, still may, but then
again so does Nero. Understand yet? No, of course you don't.

The reason is burning CD's and DVD's isn't just a routine task. I
would explain why, but pointless trying to explain anything to you
because you never listen.

MS needs to STOP certifying Roxio.

Microsoft certified Roxio claiming it works well with Vista. Get it
kid? No, you never do.

 

[Justin]

More lame garbage from a lame poster. Roxio is a complete piece of garbage
and the fact that you use it explains a lot about your "level" of
competence. That's not to say "innocence" Roxio victims are also wrapped up
into this. This only applies to you because of your self proclaimed SUPER
USER status.

Anyway, regardless of any of that, instead of offering lame remarks how
about you actually address the comment made.

Please explain to us all how this comment is null and void of any respect:

"If you have no intention of ever using the complete package - why install
the complete package."

Please keep in mind you have to actually address the comment and not branch
off about your opinion of the poster or how great of a SUPER USER you are.

Also keep in mind the fact that Roxio being an absolute CRAP piece of
software has nothing to do with Vista's level competence.

MS needs to STOP certifying Roxio.

 

[Adam Albright]

Roxio = serious?

HAHAHAHAHA, that is a joke!

Does your mommy know you're still playing on her computer?

Actually, it is. Being the owner of several "Disc Makers" products I can
testify to that.

I can testfy based on some of your wild off the wall dumb comments the
odds that you're just a wet behind the ears punk with a shit stain in
his pants is about a 99% probability.

 

[Justin]

Sorry, serious software isn't for kids like you. I will admit that
Roxio has some issues with drivers in the past, still may, but then
again so does Nero. Understand yet? No, of course you don't.

Roxio = serious?

HAHAHAHAHA, that is a joke!

The reason is burning CD's and DVD's isn't just a routine task.

Actually, it is. Being the owner of several "Disc Makers" products I can
testify to that.

But you wouldn't know anything about that. Have fun with your little
burner.

Microsoft certified Roxio claiming it works well with Vista. Get it
kid? No, you never do.

Um....what part of THEY NEED TO STOP did you not understand?

Best Regards,
Kid