Real-world ink longevity test

[NotMe]

| NotMe wrote:
| > "Michael Johnson"
| >
| > | I have our resident troll (and his alter egos) $hit canned in my kill
| > | file. What he doesn't know is that I continually backup data to the
| > | latest medium and continually keep backing it up to current
technology.
| > | I have multiple backups on all kinds of media from tape to hard
| > | drives. I really don't care about what I have on tape now because
| > | EVERYTHING that I have on tape is now on CD, DVD and hard drive
backups.
| > | EVERYTHING I currently have on hard drives will be transferred to the
| > | next great medium that comes along. If our resident troll doesn't
| > | transfer his data to newer media as it comes to market then it is he
who
| > | is misinformed and doesn't really know the facts. But then he has
shown
| > | this to be the case time and time again.
| >
| > All the back ups in the world won't help in all cases (think Katrina).
We
| > have a policy of backing up each studio at all the other locations.
Paid
| > off as we have yet to find as much as the foundation of the studio
outside
| > of New Orleans.
|
| When I had a consulting business up and running I kept backups off-site
| as well as on-site. It was easy to do with removable hard drives.
| There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need to do
| is have water tight containers. There are also fire resistant
| containers. Additionally, there are on-line storage solutions that are
| worth consideration. The key is to backup and do it regularly and store
| the data in a secure place. It is also wise to move your data to a
| medium that uses current technology and do this as required. The stuff
| I have on tape is really something I can throw away but the pack rat in
| me won't allow it.

With due respect we found more than a few full sized bath tubs that were in
a ball less than a foot in diameter.

The only thing that saved our studio bacon was off site, way out of the
area, regular back ups.

Even if the water proof back up survived there is the problem of the
government showing up and bulldozing everything. In more than a few
instance the owners were not allowed into the area for weeks, regardless.

FWIW we now have legal copies of all important documents (marriage license,
birth certificates, immunization and critical medical records, legal copies
of wills etc.) stored off site and out of the area.

As example of how broad the damage was my niece made it from NOLA to Houston
and ran out of gas. She had credit and ATM cards, a cell phone and a
calling card. Nothing worked because the computer systems with the data had
no power and many were under water.

The extended family had enough money to burn wet mules but a lot of good
that did as no one could access.

 

[rudi]

Re: "some CD-R media began failures in as little as 6 months from use.
Many of these were made in countries with poor quality controls in
their factories"

Hey, I don't think anyone disagrees that there is junk media out there
and that it may not last. I don't think that you are saying anything
here that even supports your own case.

But quality media by quality manufacturers

Now some of these quality mfg make varying quality media. They used
different dyes that are of different qualty. So you need to read CD-Media

(Verbatim, Imation, and several reputable asian manufacturers) will
last a LONG time if properly burned on properly working burners.
Without saying how long a "long time" is (by SOME estimates 150 to 300
years), I am confident that it at least a few decades.

[And yes, some of the studies by the manufacturers do suggest that the
media will be stable for centuries, IF PROPERLY STORED AND HANDLED,
but they won't make any warranties to that effect at this time.
However, this is a matter that I have studied in some depth.]

And I have seen no studies, ever, that indicated that RW media was in
ANY way more stable than one-time media (please don't say "-R" media,
because that gets back to the +R vs. -R issue as well). But I have
seen hundreds of cases of people losing data on RW media that just
"disappeared" as the media (apparently) returned, on it's own, to a
blank state over time (months to a few years). It may well have been
"underburned" by a cheap burner with a too-low-power laser, but that
doesn't help the media owner get their data back.

measekite- WHY DO YOU CARE? The entire population of the planet earth
except for a few crazies like myself buy OEM cartridges.

The crazies like myself will most likely end up burning in hell along
with our third party ink clogged printers and our fading prints- why
do you continue to argue with people that are sick of paying the
outrageous cost of OEM? Why not sit back and laugh knowing you warned
us- and shut the **** up?

I own 2 Epson 1280's at $500 a pop and am negotiating the purchase of
an R1800. I use a CIS on one and spongeless refillable cartridges with
PIGMENT INK on the other for over a year now with no problems.(the
printer is a dye ink printer)
Please let me and my fading prints and clogged printers die in peace.

I also own 2 R200's, one with CIS, the other with refillable
cartridges and pigment ink again, and a CX7800 which I am looking for
Canadian supplied refillable cartridges and ink for, and an Epson
R320, refillable cartridges again.

Check out my personal website for proof- www.geocities.com/rudedude121


***IN THE MEANTIME***, does anyone know of a Canadian pigment and B&W
ink supplier?

 

[Michael Johnson]

| NotMe wrote:
| > "Michael Johnson"
| >
| > | I have our resident troll (and his alter egos) $hit canned in my kill
| > | file. What he doesn't know is that I continually backup data to the
| > | latest medium and continually keep backing it up to current
technology.
| > | I have multiple backups on all kinds of media from tape to hard
| > | drives. I really don't care about what I have on tape now because
| > | EVERYTHING that I have on tape is now on CD, DVD and hard drive
backups.
| > | EVERYTHING I currently have on hard drives will be transferred to the
| > | next great medium that comes along. If our resident troll doesn't
| > | transfer his data to newer media as it comes to market then it is he
who
| > | is misinformed and doesn't really know the facts. But then he has
shown
| > | this to be the case time and time again.
| >
| > All the back ups in the world won't help in all cases (think Katrina).
We
| > have a policy of backing up each studio at all the other locations.
Paid
| > off as we have yet to find as much as the foundation of the studio
outside
| > of New Orleans.
|
| When I had a consulting business up and running I kept backups off-site
| as well as on-site. It was easy to do with removable hard drives.
| There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need to do
| is have water tight containers. There are also fire resistant
| containers. Additionally, there are on-line storage solutions that are
| worth consideration. The key is to backup and do it regularly and store
| the data in a secure place. It is also wise to move your data to a
| medium that uses current technology and do this as required. The stuff
| I have on tape is really something I can throw away but the pack rat in
| me won't allow it.

With due respect we found more than a few full sized bath tubs that were in
a ball less than a foot in diameter.

How on Earth would that happen? Especially with a cast iron tub. It
would crack before bending that severely.

The only thing that saved our studio bacon was off site, way out of the
area, regular back ups.

You work, or worked, in an area that is not the norm for the rest of the
country which is below sea level. Proper storage is just as important
as proper backup routines. For me the risk of theft followed by fire is
the most important to mitigate against when backing up data. Flooding
isn't an issue unless Noah is building another arch.

Even if the water proof back up survived there is the problem of the
government showing up and bulldozing everything. In more than a few
instance the owners were not allowed into the area for weeks, regardless.

Another good reason to store data off-site.... and above sea level.

FWIW we now have legal copies of all important documents (marriage license,
birth certificates, immunization and critical medical records, legal copies
of wills etc.) stored off site and out of the area.

A good idea if you live in New Orleans, Holland, Vienna etc.

As example of how broad the damage was my niece made it from NOLA to Houston
and ran out of gas. She had credit and ATM cards, a cell phone and a
calling card. Nothing worked because the computer systems with the data had
no power and many were under water.

If you want to extend things out further then most everything that is
backed up digitally assumes whatever catastrophe occurs is localized and
that the technology required to access the stored data will be available
after a disaster has passed. If it isn't then the data doesn't have
much use and I will likely have larger problems like feeding/protecting
my family to worry about. Another reason why every survival kit needs
to include cash, gold or other items to barter for goods.

The extended family had enough money to burn wet mules but a lot of good
that did as no one could access.

What is meant by the term "burn wet mules"? Just curious.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

What is meant by the term "burn wet mules"? Just curious.

What is meant by the phrase "full sized bath tubs that were in a ball
less than a foot in diameter."

Richard

 

[Michael Johnson]

What is meant by the phrase "full sized bath tubs that were in a ball
less than a foot in diameter."

Unless it was a fiberglass tub that was melted in a fire I don't see how
that could happen.

 

[NotMe]

| NotMe wrote:
| > | > | NotMe wrote:
| > | > "Michael Johnson"
| > | >
| > | > | I have our resident troll (and his alter egos) $hit canned in my
kill
| > | > | file. What he doesn't know is that I continually backup data to
the
| > | > | latest medium and continually keep backing it up to current
| > technology.
| > | > | I have multiple backups on all kinds of media from tape to hard
| > | > | drives. I really don't care about what I have on tape now because
| > | > | EVERYTHING that I have on tape is now on CD, DVD and hard drive
| > backups.
| > | > | EVERYTHING I currently have on hard drives will be transferred to
the
| > | > | next great medium that comes along. If our resident troll doesn't
| > | > | transfer his data to newer media as it comes to market then it is
he
| > who
| > | > | is misinformed and doesn't really know the facts. But then he has
| > shown
| > | > | this to be the case time and time again.
| > | >
| > | > All the back ups in the world won't help in all cases (think
Katrina).
| > We
| > | > have a policy of backing up each studio at all the other locations.
| > Paid
| > | > off as we have yet to find as much as the foundation of the studio
| > outside
| > | > of New Orleans.
| > |
| > | When I had a consulting business up and running I kept backups
off-site
| > | as well as on-site. It was easy to do with removable hard drives.
| > | There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need to
do
| > | is have water tight containers. There are also fire resistant
| > | containers. Additionally, there are on-line storage solutions that
are
| > | worth consideration. The key is to backup and do it regularly and
store
| > | the data in a secure place. It is also wise to move your data to a
| > | medium that uses current technology and do this as required. The
stuff
| > | I have on tape is really something I can throw away but the pack rat
in
| > | me won't allow it.
| >
| > With due respect we found more than a few full sized bath tubs that were
in
| > a ball less than a foot in diameter.
|
| How on Earth would that happen? Especially with a cast iron tub. It
| would crack before bending that severely.
|
| > The only thing that saved our studio bacon was off site, way out of the
| > area, regular back ups.
|
| You work, or worked, in an area that is not the norm for the rest of the
| country which is below sea level. Proper storage is just as important
| as proper backup routines. For me the risk of theft followed by fire is
| the most important to mitigate against when backing up data. Flooding
| isn't an issue unless Noah is building another arch.
|
| > Even if the water proof back up survived there is the problem of the
| > government showing up and bulldozing everything. In more than a few
| > instance the owners were not allowed into the area for weeks,
regardless.
|
| Another good reason to store data off-site.... and above sea level.
|
| > FWIW we now have legal copies of all important documents (marriage
license,
| > birth certificates, immunization and critical medical records, legal
copies
| > of wills etc.) stored off site and out of the area.
|
| A good idea if you live in New Orleans, Holland, Vienna etc.
|
| > As example of how broad the damage was my niece made it from NOLA to
Houston
| > and ran out of gas. She had credit and ATM cards, a cell phone and a
| > calling card. Nothing worked because the computer systems with the data
had
| > no power and many were under water.
|
| If you want to extend things out further then most everything that is
| backed up digitally assumes whatever catastrophe occurs is localized and
| that the technology required to access the stored data will be available
| after a disaster has passed. If it isn't then the data doesn't have
| much use and I will likely have larger problems like feeding/protecting
| my family to worry about. Another reason why every survival kit needs
| to include cash, gold or other items to barter for goods.
|
| > The extended family had enough money to burn wet mules but a lot of good
| > that did as no one could access.
|
| What is meant by the term "burn wet mules"? Just curious.

 

[NotMe]

"Michael Johnson"
| > |
| > | When I had a consulting business up and running I kept backups
off-site
| > | as well as on-site. It was easy to do with removable hard drives.
| > | There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need to
do
| > | is have water tight containers. There are also fire resistant
| > | containers. Additionally, there are on-line storage solutions that
are
| > | worth consideration. The key is to backup and do it regularly and
store
| > | the data in a secure place. It is also wise to move your data to a
| > | medium that uses current technology and do this as required. The
stuff
| > | I have on tape is really something I can throw away but the pack rat
in
| > | me won't allow it.
| >
| > With due respect we found more than a few full sized bath tubs that were
in
| > a ball less than a foot in diameter.
|
| How on Earth would that happen? Especially with a cast iron tub. It
| would crack before bending that severely.

Don't know the physics involved but I've also observed telephone poles
(think creosote permeated pine trees) with straw straight through the
middle. Storms do odd things that defy explanation. FWIW in/on the ground
concrete slab foundations were likewise 'gone'. Not just ripped up, broken
up but GONE as in no trace.

Interestingly enough a public park not 3 air miles away the trash bins were
still in place.

| > The only thing that saved our studio bacon was off site, way out of the
| > area, regular back ups.
|
| You work, or worked, in an area that is not the norm for the rest of the
| country which is below sea level. Proper storage is just as important
| as proper backup routines. For me the risk of theft followed by fire is
| the most important to mitigate against when backing up data. Flooding
| isn't an issue unless Noah is building another arch.

Last I checked the news Ohio and surrounds were neck deep in water as was
much of the mid west. ditto west Texas (you know the part that is in
constant drought. Parts of North Texas are 900 ft ASL ... last I talked to
my kids (phones are out) they are still waiting for the water to go down.
One lives on a hill but cant' get in or out except by boat as the roads are
flooded.

| > Even if the water proof back up survived there is the problem of the
| > government showing up and bulldozing everything. In more than a few
| > instance the owners were not allowed into the area for weeks,
regardless.
|
| Another good reason to store data off-site.... and above sea level.
|
| > FWIW we now have legal copies of all important documents (marriage
license,
| > birth certificates, immunization and critical medical records, legal
copies
| > of wills etc.) stored off site and out of the area.
|
| A good idea if you live in New Orleans, Holland, Vienna etc.

Ohio, parts of Texas, Oklahoma etc.

| > As example of how broad the damage was my niece made it from NOLA to
Houston
| > and ran out of gas. She had credit and ATM cards, a cell phone and a
| > calling card. Nothing worked because the computer systems with the data
had
| > no power and many were under water.
|
| If you want to extend things out further then most everything that is
| backed up digitally assumes whatever catastrophe occurs is localized and
| that the technology required to access the stored data will be available
| after a disaster has passed. If it isn't then the data doesn't have
| much use and I will likely have larger problems like feeding/protecting
| my family to worry about. Another reason why every survival kit needs
| to include cash, gold or other items to barter for goods.
|
| > The extended family had enough money to burn wet mules but a lot of good
| > that did as no one could access.
|
| What is meant by the term "burn wet mules"? Just curious.

Mules take a lot of BTUs to burn, wet mules take more. Substitute money for
fuel and that's a LOT of cash.

 

[NotMe]

message | Michael Johnson wrote:
| > What is meant by the term "burn wet mules"? Just curious.
|
| What is meant by the phrase "full sized bath tubs that were in a ball
| less than a foot in diameter."

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

message | Michael Johnson wrote:
| > What is meant by the term "burn wet mules"? Just curious.
|
| What is meant by the phrase "full sized bath tubs that were in a ball
| less than a foot in diameter."

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg

What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this supposed to be?

Jesus X, another one for the kill file.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Re: "some CD-R media began failures in as little as 6 months from use.
Many of these were made in countries with poor quality controls in their
factories"

Hey, I don't think anyone disagrees that there is junk media out there
and that it may not last. I don't think that you are saying anything
here that even supports your own case.

and

It may well have been

It all supports my "own case" in that many types of CD media are not
labeled as to manufacturer at all, and much of it is labeled with a
false manufacturer, as even the major manufacturers were buying surplus
product wherever it could be located and branding it, so very few people
actually know who made the product they bought, unless they used
software which reads this information. Therefore, you cannot make
assumptions just based upon the label of the package you bought.
Further, almost every CD-R manufacturer made numerous changes in the
dyes they used over the years, so once again, such assumptions are
questionable, regardless of the "brand" one has purchased. Since we are
speaking of archiving, we are speaking about disks purchased and burned
numerous years ago now, not just the ones people will find today. As you
state, the fact that you aren't addressing the older stuff "doesn't get
their data back".

In one personal example, I bought two packages of Sony CD-R disks some
years ago. One was manufactured in Japan, the other China. Packaging
was otherwise identical, and they were even bought at the same time for
the same price. With one exception, all the Chinese origin disks either
failed on burning or soon after, all the Japanese origin disks have
continued to work just fine.

So, maybe most "once writable" CDs will indeed last for centuries, but
many won't come close, so as I originally stated, your vastly overly
broad comments provide inaccurate and, in this case, potentially
dangerous information, and I wished to challenge and correct that. THAT
was "my case".

But quality media by quality manufacturers (Verbatim, Imation, and
several reputable asian manufacturers) will last a LONG time if properly
burned on properly working burners. Without saying how long a "long
time" is (by SOME estimates 150 to 300 years), I am confident that it at
least a few decades.

See above. By the way, does your "confidence" translate into a
guarantee for anyone reading your message? If so, please provide your
snailmail address so we know where to send the lawsuits when our CD
media fails and we lose our data during our lifetimes.

[And yes, some of the studies by the manufacturers do suggest that the
media will be stable for centuries, IF PROPERLY STORED AND HANDLED, but
they won't make any warranties to that effect at this time. However,
this is a matter that I have studied in some depth.]

Not only will they not make such claims, but many have gone from
offering "lifetime" warranties (and that's just of the blank media, not
the data) to that of a year or two. When a whole industry gets "shy"
about warranty claims it doesn't bode well for their finding the
products are "more" durable than they originally thought. I suggest
people consider that in making such determinations for their own data
storage.

And I have seen no studies, ever, that indicated that RW media was in
ANY way more stable than one-time media (please don't say "-R" media,
because that gets back to the +R vs. -R issue as well). But I have seen
hundreds of cases of people losing data on RW media that just
"disappeared" as the media (apparently) returned, on it's own, to a
blank state over time (months to a few years). It may well have been
"underburned" by a cheap burner with a too-low-power laser, but that
doesn't help the media owner get their data back.

I have (don't ask me to find it for you, I can't be bothered) but that's
not even the point. The RW technology is completely different than that
used in the "once write" technology. It actually causes a change in the
structure of the data surface which is high heat, rather than light
activated. ALL dyes, especially organic ones, fade with exposure to
light (and lasers are a form of concentrated light energy) while a
properly converted phase change material should not alter until the same
thermal intensity changes the phase again. Light should have no direct
effect, nor should lower heat levels.

My approach, however, is to burn both types for each disk I archive.
That provides two different environmental profiles. However, both
benefit from being kept physically protected, and cool. The "once
writable" stuff also is best kept in the dark.

I'm unwilling (just like the manufacturers) to make any warranty that CD
(or DVD) media will last decades let alone centuries, and as such, I
still suggest people regularly randomly test their archives on a yearly
or bi-yearly basis for loses.

Art

 

[Michael Johnson]

What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this supposed to be?

Jesus X, another one for the kill file.

I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.

 

[NotMe]

"Michael Johnson"

| >> http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg
| > What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this supposed to be?
| >
| > Jesus X, another one for the kill file.
|
| I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.

You must work for FEMA as you clearly miss the obvious.

 

[Michael Johnson]

"Michael Johnson"
| > |
| > | When I had a consulting business up and running I kept backups
off-site
| > | as well as on-site. It was easy to do with removable hard drives.
| > | There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need to
do
| > | is have water tight containers. There are also fire resistant
| > | containers. Additionally, there are on-line storage solutions that
are
| > | worth consideration. The key is to backup and do it regularly and
store
| > | the data in a secure place. It is also wise to move your data to a
| > | medium that uses current technology and do this as required. The
stuff
| > | I have on tape is really something I can throw away but the pack rat
in
| > | me won't allow it.
| >
| > With due respect we found more than a few full sized bath tubs that were
in
| > a ball less than a foot in diameter.
|
| How on Earth would that happen? Especially with a cast iron tub. It
| would crack before bending that severely.

Don't know the physics involved but I've also observed telephone poles
(think creosote permeated pine trees) with straw straight through the
middle. Storms do odd things that defy explanation. FWIW in/on the ground
concrete slab foundations were likewise 'gone'. Not just ripped up, broken
up but GONE as in no trace.

Interestingly enough a public park not 3 air miles away the trash bins were
still in place.

I grew up in the midwest right in the middle of "Tornado Alley" and have
seen many strange things from high wind events. I never saw a bathtub
twisted up into a one foot diameter ball. I've seen where a tornado
plucked a garage and all its contents from between a house and a bard
that were 50'-75' apart. The house and barn were untouched.

| > The only thing that saved our studio bacon was off site, way out of the
| > area, regular back ups.
|
| You work, or worked, in an area that is not the norm for the rest of the
| country which is below sea level. Proper storage is just as important
| as proper backup routines. For me the risk of theft followed by fire is
| the most important to mitigate against when backing up data. Flooding
| isn't an issue unless Noah is building another arch.

Last I checked the news Ohio and surrounds were neck deep in water as was
much of the mid west. ditto west Texas (you know the part that is in
constant drought. Parts of North Texas are 900 ft ASL ... last I talked to
my kids (phones are out) they are still waiting for the water to go down.
One lives on a hill but cant' get in or out except by boat as the roads are
flooded.

This is why FEMA has 100 year flood plain maps. Trouble is they don't
stop people from buying houses located in the flood plain. Just like
New Orleans existing below sea level didn't stop people from living
there or from rebuilding in the same place to have it happen all over
again, and we know it will eventually. The amount of area that floods
is a small percentage of all habitable land area. Look at the FEMA
maps. They are online.

| > Even if the water proof back up survived there is the problem of the
| > government showing up and bulldozing everything. In more than a few
| > instance the owners were not allowed into the area for weeks,
regardless.
|
| Another good reason to store data off-site.... and above sea level.
|
| > FWIW we now have legal copies of all important documents (marriage
license,
| > birth certificates, immunization and critical medical records, legal
copies
| > of wills etc.) stored off site and out of the area.
|
| A good idea if you live in New Orleans, Holland, Vienna etc.

Ohio, parts of Texas, Oklahoma etc.

How many office buildings flood? I can tell you it is VERY FEW. It's
bad for business.

 

[Michael Johnson]

"Michael Johnson"

| >> http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg
| > What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this supposed to be?
| >
| > Jesus X, another one for the kill file.
|
| I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.

You must work for FEMA as you clearly miss the obvious.

I think the obvious thing here is that you tend to exaggerate.

 

[NotMe]

"Michael Johnson"
| >
| > | >> http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg
| > | > What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this supposed to
be?
| > | >
| > | > Jesus X, another one for the kill file.
| > |
| > | I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.
| >
| > You must work for FEMA as you clearly miss the obvious.
|
| I think the obvious thing here is that you tend to exaggerate.

Ok then compelty ignore what I have said about back ups. You'll learn early
or late but learn you will.

 

[NotMe]

"Michael Johnson" .
|
| How many office buildings flood? I can tell you it is VERY FEW. It's
| bad for business.

Above the second floor you would be right ....

http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/photos/flood87_484.jpg

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/figurethumbnails/business_145_p_943352.jpg

http://standeyo.com/NEWS/06_Earth_Changes/06_Earth_Change_pics/060625.OH.flood2.jpg

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/5521/SulDellFlood1937.jpg

http://www.contingencyplans.com/images/flood.jpg

http://ms.water.usgs.gov/water_fs/flood.jpg

http://www.anxnews.com/images/flooding1-final306w.jpg

http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/pa/articles/images/BrushCreek-Historical_1977_Plaza_Flood.jpg

that from a quick google search.

Next you'll be claming air planes never crash into big buildings.

 

[Michael Johnson]

"Michael Johnson"
| >
| > | >> http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg
| > | > What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this supposed to
be?
| > | >
| > | > Jesus X, another one for the kill file.
| > |
| > | I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.
| >
| > You must work for FEMA as you clearly miss the obvious.
|
| I think the obvious thing here is that you tend to exaggerate.

Ok then compelty ignore what I have said about back ups. You'll learn early
or late but learn you will.

Have you even read my posts in this thread? Stay focused.

 

[Michael Johnson]

"Michael Johnson" .
|
| How many office buildings flood? I can tell you it is VERY FEW. It's
| bad for business.

Above the second floor you would be right ....

http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/photos/flood87_484.jpg

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/figurethumbnails/business_145_p_943352.jpg

http://standeyo.com/NEWS/06_Earth_Changes/06_Earth_Change_pics/060625.OH.flood2.jpg

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/5521/SulDellFlood1937.jpg

http://www.contingencyplans.com/images/flood.jpg

http://ms.water.usgs.gov/water_fs/flood.jpg

http://www.anxnews.com/images/flooding1-final306w.jpg

http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/pa/articles/images/BrushCreek-Historical_1977_Plaza_Flood.jpg

that from a quick google search.

These pictures prove what? Buildings Flood? Of course they do. Does
anywhere near a large percentage of them flood? Of course they don't.
Am I supposed to fire back with pictures of building that don't flood?
I wonder how many of those I can find?

Next you'll be claming air planes never crash into big buildings.

Not before you claim airplanes can be crumpled into a one foot diameter
balls of wreckage from hurricane force winds.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Are modern bathtubs made of cast iron, or are they rolled and fabricated
sheet metal now? I think cast tubs went out with burnt wet mules ;-)

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Ever seen one of those car crushers?

Art

What is meant by the phrase "full sized bath tubs that were in a ball
less than a foot in diameter."

Richard