R800 Clogged up!

[puss]

Arthur Entlich


I don't know if you have this web site so here it is

http://www.alotofthings.com/supportforrefillers/beyondthebluelabel.htm



Very similar Tanks to my R210..

Epson NZ told me by E-mail, the reason for the different Tanks and Model
number (R200/210) was that the Ink & Tanks were made for NZ/OZZ Climatic
conditions..


What a Big load of Bull.

Its to shop people importing Epson tanks from the US etc..

As most stuff here is way dearer..

Funny though that my R210 Tanks are made in Mexico..

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Well, first of all, one never quite knows how "higher quality" the inks
are that you used, or how compatible they were. The R800 uses a
uniquely designed ink that Epson owns the rights to. Canon printers do
not currently come with pigment colorant inks, only dye, and as a
result, they fade rather badly. And yes, Canon 3rd party inks can
causes clogging, but dye inks are less clog prone than pigment colorant
types.

Most people buy the R800 because it uses these specialized pigment
colorant inks which have very good light resistance. Are the 3rd party
inks you put in pigment types? Do they use Epson's patented pigments or
equivalent, which are every finely ground? Do they use polymer
encapsulation? I am not just tossing these terms around because Epson
uses them in their advertising. The Durabrite and Ultrachrome inks were
designed by/for Epson and are a patented formulations. Getting pigment
colorant inks through an inkjet is no simple matter. The formulations
need to be designed very carefully, their solvents and carriers are
critical, as are the sizes of the ground pigments. Their drying time
and ionic charges are important also.

It's a bit like the difference between diesel and jet fuel. You can run
a diesel engine of oil furnace fuel without a problem, but I wouldn't
try mixing up jet fuel in my backyard.

If you want a Canon printer, and be saddled with fading inks, go ahead
and buy one, and use 3rd party inks with it, and chances are it won't
clog too badly. Buying a C , CX or the R800 or 2200 printers and then
running them of 3rd party inks is perhaps pushing the current limit of
the 3rd party ink distributors. Tests have show even some of the 3rd
party dye inks have problems in the Epson dye ink printers.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Yes, I am are of that, and I comment them for doing so. I think it goes
into effect next year. It will be very interesting to see how the
inkjet companies decide to meet the legislation.

Art

 

[BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn]

Arthur Entlich


I don't know if you have this web site so here it is

http://www.alotofthings.com/supportforrefillers/beyondthebluelabel.htm



Very similar Tanks to my R210..

Epson NZ told me by E-mail, the reason for the different Tanks and Model
number (R200/210) was that the Ink & Tanks were made for NZ/OZZ Climatic
conditions..


What a Big load of Bull.

Its to shop people importing Epson tanks from the US etc..

As most stuff here is way dearer..

Funny though that my R210 Tanks are made in Mexico..

 

[Rob]

Arthur Entlich


I don't know if you have this web site so here it is

http://www.alotofthings.com/supportforrefillers/beyondthebluelabel.htm



Very similar Tanks to my R210..

Epson NZ told me by E-mail, the reason for the different Tanks and Model
number (R200/210) was that the Ink & Tanks were made for NZ/OZZ Climatic
conditions..


What a Big load of Bull.

Its to shop people importing Epson tanks from the US etc..

As most stuff here is way dearer..

Funny though that my R210 Tanks are made in Mexico..

I have had 3 different packaging for the ink cartridges of my R210 all
work the same - the current ones are "for the asia pacific" and are made
in mexico.

have one left from an old set "for use in Taiwan" - this box has
different markings and not specified where its made.

Inspecting the actual cartridge, the internal sealed package, they are
both identical. Both have the Japanese address. But the Taiwan use has
Made in China on the cartridge. And the Asia/Pacific has Mexico on it.

Go figure?

 

[ThomasH]

I find this posting suspect.

You admit the R800 clogged right after you replaced the Epson ink
cartridges with a third party product. You then blame Epson for not
taking responsibility for this clog which occurred right after you
changed the ink. Somehow your case is coincidental, in spite that you

I agree, I have seen so many of such postings in correlation
with use of 3rd party inks. Of course the genuine inks are
expensive, but until a specific 3rd party ink will be tested
by one of the known labs and maybe even endorsed by the
manufacturer (...keep dreaming...), I would rather stay with the
genuine article, *especially while printer warranty is valid*!!!

This is my recommendation to everyone. Stay away from 3rd
party inks as long the printer has a valid warranty!

We all know that this policy of not endorsing any 3rd
party ink by printer manufacturers does not base on merits
of these products. They want to sell you their overpriced
ink. Consider it what it is: A rest payment for the printer
in small rates. Investigate the market and *maybe* go for a
3rd party ink after your printer warranty becomes void.

Thomas

 

[Hecate]

I agree, I have seen so many of such postings in correlation
with use of 3rd party inks. Of course the genuine inks are
expensive, but until a specific 3rd party ink will be tested
by one of the known labs and maybe even endorsed by the
manufacturer (...keep dreaming...), I would rather stay with the
genuine article, *especially while printer warranty is valid*!!!

This is my recommendation to everyone. Stay away from 3rd
party inks as long the printer has a valid warranty!

We all know that this policy of not endorsing any 3rd
party ink by printer manufacturers does not base on merits
of these products. They want to sell you their overpriced
ink. Consider it what it is: A rest payment for the printer
in small rates. Investigate the market and *maybe* go for a
3rd party ink after your printer warranty becomes void.

It really does depend on the ink. The inks that cause problems are
the ones which people buy as a cost saving. Inks such as Permajet and
Lyson (And their CIS systems) are not at all cheap and work well.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I don't know New Zealand enough in terms of how much variation in
climate there is there within the country, although as I recall Northern
and Southern N.Z. differ markedly in terms of heat and humidity.

If the whole country was truly similar, an ink formulation could be
varied for things like drying time.

What I found very interesting was while dissecting the R800 cartridges
just recently. As far as I was able to determine, much of the complexity
is designed around making the cartridge difficult to refill. It is a
bit of injection plastic marvel and innovation. I particularly like the
fact that one wall of the cartridge can be removed without the fear of
leaking ink (the wall opposite the labeled wall). Once open, there is a
black opaque plastic covering on the cartridge, which makes it
impossible to see where the ink would be going in trying to refill it.
I was able to peel back this black plastic, leaving behind a coating of
clear plastic, so I could see the interior of the cartridge. I wouldn't
suggest removing that black plastic, because the clear plastic left is
thin and probably doesn't protect the cartridge against desiccation, but
I do suspect that black layer is black to keep people from seeing into
the maze of chambers the cartridge has.

Anyway, all a sad state of affairs, as I see it.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I suggest people buy inks from reputable and well documented ink
sources, who have long solid reputations, and obviously wish to have
long repeated client orders, if they want to buy 3rd party inks. These
inks will tend to be more expensive than other, less known inks, in fact
some specialty inks may cost more than Epson's (hard to believe!) ;-)

Art

 

[Hecate]

I suggest people buy inks from reputable and well documented ink
sources, who have long solid reputations, and obviously wish to have
long repeated client orders, if they want to buy 3rd party inks. These
inks will tend to be more expensive than other, less known inks, in fact
some specialty inks may cost more than Epson's (hard to believe!) ;-)

Absolutely Art. In particular, the B&W inks from the companies I
mentioned are great,. but expensive

 

[Viktor Darnedde]

...
What I found very interesting was while dissecting the R800 cartridges
just recently. As far as I was able to determine, much of the complexity
is designed around making the cartridge difficult to refill. It is a
bit of injection plastic marvel and innovation.
...

Hello,

I can't speak about the R800 cartridges, I own an Epson Stylus 2100
which has cartridges of similar complexity (yes, pretty amasing,
indeed), but I disagree that much of the complexity is to make refill
more difficult. (Actually refill of the 2100/2200-cartridges is quite
easy if you know how to do it. I expect the same for the R800, but where
can one get the bulk R800-ink? For the "normal" Ultrachrome ink there
are those big catridges for the Epson Pro 4000/7600/... quite cheaper
per ml than the small cartridges!)

Some of the complicated multi-chamber "injection plastic marvel" is
designed to maintain a constant (optimal) liquid pressure to the print
head over most of the cartridges ink capacity. Air breathing must be
designed in a way to minimize foaming up the ink. You can't use a sponge
with those pigment inks.

But some features are clearly against easy refill: one or two one-way
valves, double wall design, overall complexity ...

You can't just drill a hole and fill in the juice (use negative pressure
refill techniques instead and a little easy modification of the
cartridge, that's it!).


\relax\bye % Viktor

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I agree some of the design is to protect the ink flow and from oxidation
and drying, and somewhat to maintain even flow and pressure, but much of
the complexity is there to compound and confound.

Negative pressure filling probably works (it looks as though that's how
they fill them the first time) but for most people, it is just too involved.

Art

Viktor Darnedde wrote:

 

[Zero]

Well everyone, thanks for a very interesting read so far. The next
part of the tale follows; you'll like this.

There was I, with the factory refurbished (as far as I could see it was
brand new) R800, but no Epson inks had come with it. In the meantime,
Jettec had kindly sent me a complimentary set of inks for all my
trouble, so a scientific test was on: new printer with 3rd party inks.


I decided to document my findings in minute detail (which I will
summarise here) for Jettec's benefit; after all here was a brand
spanking new printer and if their product didn't work properly in it
then there would be absolute proof that any problem caused was at least
not from a chemical reaction between Epson and Jettec ink. It would
also hint very strongly that a printer malfunction was not the cause.
Ultimately, if the combination didn't work then the problem would point
at the inks, not the printer.

A revealing result was obtained.

The new printer and new Jettec ink were introduced. Everything went
smoothly whilst the printer primed itself. Then began the nozzle
checks - o-ho, what do we have here; no magenta or red ink flowing but
all other inks absolutely fine! No matter what I tried, be it standard
cleaning program, an auto-nozzle-check / cleaning program, leaving it
overnight and trying to print out large blocks of magenta and red,
hardly any of either colour came through.

If you remember, my initial problem began when replacing an Epson
magenta cartridge for a Jettec one, despite previously having used
Jettec cyan and yellow. This therefore pointed at a design flaw with
the Jettec magenta and red R800 inks.

I revealed my findings immediately to Jettec, who were magnanimous;
another brand new R800 (*with* Epson inks) would be dispatched to me
the same day and the suspect unit returned to them by the same courier.


That was a couple of weeks ago but I've not had the courage to even
open the new R800 box!

I will try and find out what happened with the faulty printer/ink combo
from my contact at the factory and post back on this thread.

Cheers all

Zero.

 

[ato_zee]

A revealing result was obtained.

The new printer and new Jettec ink were introduced. Everything went
smoothly whilst the printer primed itself. Then began the nozzle
checks - o-ho, what do we have here; no magenta or red ink flowing but
all other inks absolutely fine!

This explains a lot, my printer died the day I refilled with Jettec. Will
never touch Jettec again. Their inks aren't compatible. I've got
hold of some of the old cycle valve rubber tubing, if it fits the spike
I'll try to see if the Jettec syringe will flush cleaner through the jets,
I've nothing to lose since Jettec b*****red up the printer.

 

[measekite]

While some have had reasonable luck with 3rd party inks (others have had
trouble) whether it be Canon or Epson, it appears that when using a 3rd
party pigmented ink like what the R800 uses, there may be a tendency for
more problems. I guess that expensive factory ink is best for this
expensive printer.

 

[Stanley Krute]

Hi Zero

Suggestion: stick to Epson inks.

The great advantage of the r800 is that,
besides printing lovely images, the prints
will last a very long time.

Forgetting clogged nozzles for the moment:
By using 3rd party inks, the odds are high
that your prints won't last as long.

In an r800, 3rd-party inks are a false economy.

-- stan

 

[measekite]

So if you do not use the Epson Brand of pigmented inks then you are
tabling the longevity issue so you might as well have all of the
advantages of a Canon Pixma Printer.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I do wonder why someone would spend the money that an R800 costs, at
about double to triple that of similar printers using dye inks, and then
not use the specialty inks that Epson produces for it. I suppose there
could be reasonable clone ink out there, but the characteristics of the
R800 inks are somewhat unique. They are special colors (CMYRBKK +GLOSS,
have special characteristics (very fade resistant colorants) and the
gloss feature for high gloss result) all making 3rd party inks probably
harder to accomplish well.

I think, at least for now, anyone buying an R800 or R1800 printer should
calculate the cost of the OEM inks in their usage plans, or buy a
different printer.


Art

 

[measekite]

I do wonder why someone would spend the money that an R800 costs, at
about double to triple that of similar printers using dye inks, and
then not use the specialty inks that Epson produces for it. I suppose
there could be reasonable clone ink out there, but the characteristics
of the R800 inks are somewhat unique. They are special colors
(CMYRBKK +GLOSS, have special characteristics (very fade resistant
colorants) and the gloss feature for high gloss result) all making 3rd
party inks probably harder to accomplish well.

I think, at least for now, anyone buying an R800 or R1800 printer
should calculate the cost of the OEM inks in their usage plans, or buy
a different printer.

Halleula

But the ink is very expensive and Epsons are designed in such a way to
use as much of it as possible. If your not a print reseller then I
would say the Canon i9900 would provide better results.

 

[Stanley Krute]

Prof. Dr. Yr. Honor Measekite:

If your not a print reseller then I would say the Canon i9900 would
provide better results.

Is it possible for you to envision a universe
in which printers other than Canons meet
a variety of users' needs ?

-- stan