Power outrage n CPU

M

ML

P4 HT system suffered a power outrage and the service center replaced the MB
& graphic card. Now the PC hangs regularly or switch off after a while.
To troubleshoot, I switched off HT and the CPU Usage is 100%. (with HT on,
1 graph has high usage while the other like 50%).
ProcessExplorer shows busy Interrupts & DPCs.
Would a faulty CPU (maybe the outrage didnt kill it completely) cause high
CPU Usage?
Thank you.
 
L

Leythos

P4 HT system suffered a power outrage and the service center replaced the MB
& graphic card. Now the PC hangs regularly or switch off after a while.
To troubleshoot, I switched off HT and the CPU Usage is 100%. (with HT on,
1 graph has high usage while the other like 50%).
ProcessExplorer shows busy Interrupts & DPCs.
Would a faulty CPU (maybe the outrage didnt kill it completely) cause high
CPU Usage?
Thank you.

If they replaced the Motherboard and Video card, then they should have
installed the proper drivers and other items - take it back to them and
tell them it's not running properly since they changed the motherboard
and Video card.

If it hangs while in use after what you've stated was changed, I would
guess that they didn't properly mount the CPU heatsink - meaning they
either messed up or they didn't properly install heat-sink paste.
 
A

Andrew E.

With those 2 items replaced,did you reinstall xp,unless they were the exact
same components as the old,youre pc will have problems...
 
M

ML

New development: switched off HT in BIOS & changed the Device
Manager>Computer to Standard PC. With these settings, the CPU usage went down
to normal range. In Standard PC mode, the APM is not available and need to
switch PC off manually.

Question: if HT is set to ON in the BIOS for P4 with HT, what should be the
status of PC in the Device Manager>Computer?
I did a check for the following:
ACPI Multiprocessor PC means multi-cpu ACPI computer
ACPI PC means single cpu MB with 1 cpu
MPS multiprocessor PC
Standard PC means non-ACPI, non-MPS like 486, P2, P3

Originally was ACPI Multiprocessor PC, was this the correct one for P4 HT?
If the problem is due to HAL, maybe a reinstall of XP might solve the problem?
Any pointers?
Thanks.
 
P

Paul

ML said:
New development: switched off HT in BIOS & changed the Device
Manager>Computer to Standard PC. With these settings, the CPU usage went down
to normal range. In Standard PC mode, the APM is not available and need to
switch PC off manually.

Question: if HT is set to ON in the BIOS for P4 with HT, what should be the
status of PC in the Device Manager>Computer?
I did a check for the following:
ACPI Multiprocessor PC means multi-cpu ACPI computer
ACPI PC means single cpu MB with 1 cpu
MPS multiprocessor PC
Standard PC means non-ACPI, non-MPS like 486, P2, P3

Originally was ACPI Multiprocessor PC, was this the correct one for P4 HT?
If the problem is due to HAL, maybe a reinstall of XP might solve the problem?
Any pointers?
Thanks.

"ACPI Multiprocessor" is what my P4 with Hyperthreading uses. It is also
used on my Core2 Duo machine as well. The ACPI part handles power
management, including the automated (soft-off) shutdown of the
computer. Standard PC requires manual intervention, because
the ACPI is missing.

Another setting you could try, is APIC in the BIOS. APIC is
for hardware interrupts. There are some motherboards that
seem to have problems running with APIC, so you can switch
to PIC instead. A visible symptom, is if APIC is used,
interrupt number may be seen to go up to 23. If PIC is
used instead, the interrupts stop at 15.

An "interrupt storm", is a situation where the CPU is fielding
bogus interrupts. An interrupt handler runs, but there is
no work to do. So the CPU wastes a lot of time, entering
a software routine which ends up doing no work. That can
affect the amount of computing, and the speed with which
the machine can run. In some cases, this can be traced
to a particular peripheral chip (there was one chip that
had a design flaw, that caused this). It might also be due
to a signal shorted on the motherboard. I don't know if
there is any way to determine, based on symptoms a user
can see, exactly what is going on. (If I had PCI cards
plugged into the system, I might try removing all of them,
and see if the symptoms persist.)

While the spelling of ACPI and APIC uses the same set of
letters, they're two very different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acpi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apic

Paul
 
S

smlunatick

If they replaced the Motherboard and Video card, then they should have
installed the proper drivers and other items - take it back to them and
tell them it's not running properly since they changed the motherboard
and Video card.

If it hangs while in use after what you've stated was changed, I would
guess that they didn't properly mount the CPU heatsink - meaning they
either messed up or they didn't properly install heat-sink paste.

--
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
  drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

Also, with a power outage, if the video card and the motherboard was
affected to the point that they were replaced, it should be assumed
that the power supply was also affected. The power supply should be
replaced.
 
L

Leythos

Also, with a power outage, if the video card and the motherboard was
affected to the point that they were replaced, it should be assumed
that the power supply was also affected. The power supply should be
replaced.

That could be, but not always - if the computer is getting to a certain
point then it appears that the PSU is good.
 
S

smlunatick

That could be, but not always - if the computer is getting to a certain
point then it appears that the PSU is good.

--
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
  drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

Power problems that will force a motherboard / video card to be change
will also affect the PSU. PSU can be rendered with a "borderline"
problem.
 
M

ML

Hi guys

The PSU was replaced too if I remember correctly.
The important thing here is on how to solve that particular problem.
Thnks.


 
A

Anna

ML said:
P4 HT system suffered a power outrage and the service center replaced the
MB
& graphic card. Now the PC hangs regularly or switch off after a while.
To troubleshoot, I switched off HT and the CPU Usage is 100%. (with HT
on,
1 graph has high usage while the other like 50%).
ProcessExplorer shows busy Interrupts & DPCs.
Would a faulty CPU (maybe the outrage didnt kill it completely) cause high
CPU Usage?
Thank you.


ML:
Just to get a clear idea of the precise problem(s) you're experiencing...

1. You indicate the "PC hangs regularly or switch(es) off after a while."

Exactly what is happening here? You're able to boot to your Desktop without
incident and the system functions properly for some period of time and then
it "hangs"? What does this mean? The system simply freezes? No mouse
movement, inability to access programs/data, no keyboard access? Is this
what you mean by the PC "hanging"? You're simply "dead in the water"?

So what happens then? You manually reboot or power-off? Then the system
properly functions for a while before the problem(s) reoccur?

2. And about this "switch(ing) off after a while"...

Could you elaborate on what happens here? Again, the system operates for
some period of time without a problem and then without warning simply
powers-off on its own accord? Is this what's happening?

3. All this *immediately* happened following the replacement of the
motherboard, graphics card, and (as I believe you subsequently indicated), a
new processor? The system *never* worked properly following the new
components being installed? Or these problems arose sometime after the
system was overhauled?

Surely you've discussed these problems you've experienced with the "service
center". What has been their response?
Anna
 
W

w_tom

The PSU was replaced too if I remember correctly.
The important thing here is on how to solve that particular problem.

Problem has been made exponentially more complex due to
shotgunning. They simply kept replacing parts until something
worked. A trained tech first sees the defect before replacing
anything.

After all that work, list the number of components *known* to be
good. The list is empty - classic of what shotgunning does. An empty
list says nothing was accomplished after all that labor and money.

Another foolishly said:
if the computer is getting to a certain point then
it appears that the PSU is good.
More nonsense from those who worship shotgunning. A defective power
supply can boot and operate a computer.

Doors all over a house are sticking. So do you plane down the
doors? Or first check out the building’s foundation. The foundation
of every computer is its power supply 'system'. More than just a
supply. A computer’s foundation is the entire ‘system’.

Only method you have to *definitively* verify power 'system'
integrity is a 3.5 digit multimeter. A device sold where ever hammers
are sold for about the same price. A tool essential to solving
problems such as yours. (Warning - Leythos will attack this poster.
He attacks and promotes shotgunning. If you want a solution, ignore
his attacks. Those who don't know will routinely attack the messenger
rather than provide useful posts.)

Measure DC voltages on any one of purple, red, orange, and yellow
wires where wires enter the nylon connector on motherboard. (This
nylon connector not confused with another two that connect near CPU
and to video controller board). Those 3 digit numbers provide facts
that will not be immediately apparent. Best values are obtained when
the system is under maximum load - accessing all peripherals
simultaneously. IOW play complex video graphics (ie a movie), while
downloading from the internet, while playing a CD-Rom, while
outputting maximum sound, while searching the hard drives, while ...
That is a maximum load necessary to provide useful numbers on the
meter. Or at least create enough load to obtain useful meter
measurements. That means everything is installed and powered when
measuring those 3, 5, and 12 volts wires.

Also useful (but maybe not for your problem) are voltages on the
green and gray wires both before and when power switch is pressed.
Again, post numbers here because those numbers report facts only to
the knowledgeable informed.

Concept is simple. First put the entire power 'system' on a list of
"definitively known good" items. Currently, that list is empty. Once
that 'system' is "definitively good", only then was something
accomplished. Only then move on to other suspects.
 
L

Leythos

Problem has been made exponentially more complex due to
shotgunning. They simply kept replacing parts until something
worked. A trained tech first sees the defect before replacing
anything.

The shotgun method, when used properly saves lots of time and will
always resolve the problem.

The problem is that there are people like w_tom that don't understand
basic diagnostic concepts and don't properly isolate the problems and
then move on.

There is nothing that w_tom has ever posted that was worth reading and
he's been proven wrong countless times, and he argues against proven
industry standards and most accepted practices.
 
M

ML

ML:
Just to get a clear idea of the precise problem(s) you're experiencing...

1. You indicate the "PC hangs regularly or switch(es) off after a while."

Exactly what is happening here? You're able to boot to your Desktop without
incident and the system functions properly for some period of time and then
it "hangs"? What does this mean? The system simply freezes? No mouse
movement, inability to access programs/data, no keyboard access? Is this
what you mean by the PC "hanging"? You're simply "dead in the water"?

So what happens then? You manually reboot or power-off? Then the system
properly functions for a while before the problem(s) reoccur?

2. And about this "switch(ing) off after a while"...

Could you elaborate on what happens here? Again, the system operates for
some period of time without a problem and then without warning simply
powers-off on its own accord? Is this what's happening?

As stated in my other post, it was because of high CPU Usage which led to
high tempt and that caused the system to hang. After HT was disabled in Bios
and the Device Manager>Computer set to Standard PC, the system began to
return to normal. I think the Service Center didn't do a good job n I'm not
going back.
The other option is to do a clean install, activate HT and set ACPI
Multiprocessor PC in Device Manager>Computer. Hopefully, that problem will
not present itself again.

3. All this *immediately* happened following the replacement of the
motherboard, graphics card, and (as I believe you subsequently indicated), a
new processor? The system *never* worked properly following the new
components being installed? Or these problems arose sometime after the
system was overhauled?

The MB n graphic card were replaced. I indicated that the PSU could have
been replaced because the other posts mentioned it.
Surely you've discussed these problems you've experienced with the "service
center". What has been their response?
Anna
Thnks.
 
L

Leythos

As stated in my other post, it was because of high CPU Usage which led to
high tempt and that caused the system to hang. After HT was disabled in Bios
and the Device Manager>Computer set to Standard PC, the system began to
return to normal. I think the Service Center didn't do a good job n I'm not
going back.
The other option is to do a clean install, activate HT and set ACPI
Multiprocessor PC in Device Manager>Computer. Hopefully, that problem will
not present itself again.

If your system became unstable with HT Enabled, because of
"Temperature" then I would strongly suggest that the technician didn't
properly apply heat-sink paste to your CPU. Many tech's assume that the
remaining past on an old CPU is enough, but that's because they don't
have any real training.

Take a look at this website, you need to pick your CPU type:

http://www.arcticsilver.com/ins_route_step2intelas5.html
 
S

smlunatick

As stated in my other post, it was because of high CPU Usage which led to
high tempt and that caused the system to hang. After  HT was disabled in Bios
and  the Device Manager>Computer set to Standard PC, the system began to
return to normal. I think the Service Center didn't do a good job n I'm not
going back.
The other option is to do a clean install, activate HT and set ACPI
Multiprocessor PC in Device Manager>Computer. Hopefully, that problem will
not present itself again.


The MB n graphic card were replaced. I indicated that the PSU could have
been replaced because the other posts mentioned it.


Thnks.

You had originally posted that due to a power "outage," you wer forced
to replace the motherboard and video card. Depending on the "age" of
the motherboard, if it was more than 1 year old, the service center
(aka repair shop) probably did / could not replace it with an "exact"
same motherboard (with "same" revision numbers.) Since XP's product
activation is "tide" to several components on the motherboard, a XP re-
install is the recommended method of repairing the Windows. Your
problem description is an "exact" result of a possible XP "product
activation" "info" conflicts.
 
W

w_tom

As stated in my other post, it was because of high CPU Usage which led to
high tempt and that caused the system to hang.

This is completely different from symptoms is the original post.
Your system overheated in a 70 degree room? Any computer (properly
designed) must perform that maximum load and not overheat in a 100
degree room. That is standard design.

You start that diagnosis by first learning what the heatsink 'degree
C per watt' spec number is. You know from CPU specs what the maximum
numbers of watts will be. You can calculate what that heatsink
assembly would leave the CPU at. Then compare that to what the actual
temperature is. IOW learn whether the heatsink assembly is
insufficient or if you have an installation problem. Then first
whichever is defective.

Manufacturer gives a maximum operation temperature (exceed that
temperature and the system may crash (AMD) or slow down (Intel) - not
be damaged. But your system must be designed to do maximum CPU
loading (heat) even when room temperature is 100 degrees F.
 
W

w_tom

As stated in my other post, it was because of high CPU Usage which led to
high tempt and that caused the system to hang.

Another has suggested that thermal paste was not applied. If
thermal paste causes CPU temperature to decrease by more than single
digit degrees, then that heatsink is either improperly seated, or more
likely defective.

Heatsinks must be machined to provide sufficient cooling without
any thermal paste. Thermal past must be so thin as to only fill rare
holes between CPU and heatsink. Thermal paste must be applied so
minimally that most of the heatsink makes direct contact with the CPU
surfaced.

The concept is called thermal impedance. Lower thermal impedance
means a lower CPU temperature. The heatsink to CPU has lowest thermal
impedance. Thermal paste only makes the CPU to air to heatsink
interface more conductive by replacing air with thermal paste. The
CPU to thermal paste to heatsink still is not low enough. But thermal
impedance is better than a CPU to air to heatsink interface.

Apply thermal paste so sparingly that thermal paste does not squeeze
out to the CPU edge. Most all heat is transferred CPU to heatsink in
the CPU center. If thermal paste squeezes out to the edge, then not
enough heatsink touches CPU at the center.

If thermal past squeezed outside the CPU to heatsink interface, then
thermal paste can created CPU electrical problems.

But again the most important point. If thermal paste reduced CPU
temperatures by more than single digit degrees, then replace that
heatsink with one that met machine standards of even 30 years ago.
Thermal paste must only create a minor decrease in CPU temperatures if
that heatsink was properly machined and mounted.
 
L

Leythos

This is completely different from symptoms is the original post.
Your system overheated in a 70 degree room? Any computer (properly
designed) must perform that maximum load and not overheat in a 100
degree room. That is standard design.

Which ignores that the Motherboard was replaced, showing, again, that
you don't understand the basics.

Any computer, even well designed, can fail due to improper assembly.
 
L

Leythos

Another has suggested that thermal paste was not applied. If
thermal paste causes CPU temperature to decrease by more than single
digit degrees, then that heatsink is either improperly seated, or more
likely defective.

Again, W_Tom shows he doesn't have a clue. Many HSP/CPU/Heatsink
combinations decrease the operating peak temperature by more than 20deg.
Anyone that has worked with computers knows that a computer built
without Heatsink paste will fail under load most times.
Heatsinks must be machined to provide sufficient cooling without
any thermal paste. Thermal past must be so thin as to only fill rare
holes between CPU and heatsink. Thermal paste must be applied so
minimally that most of the heatsink makes direct contact with the CPU
surfaced.

The above is a complete lie and shows that W_Tom doesn't have a clue
about computers or much else for that matter.

A heat sink on ANY COMPUTER or other electrical device requires heat-
sink compound in order to properly conduct heat away from the device
it's protecting.

There isn't a single computer vendor that would sell a computer to
anyone without HSP installed between the CPU and the Heat-Sink.
 
S

smlunatick

If your system became unstable with HT Enabled, because of
"Temperature" then I would strongly suggest that the technician didn't
properly apply heat-sink paste to your CPU. Many tech's assume that the
remaining past on an old CPU is enough, but that's because they don't
have any real training.

Take a look at this website, you need to pick your CPU type:

http://www.arcticsilver.com/ins_route_step2intelas5.html

--
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
  drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

If the system is "failing" due to temperature problem, you must
consider the location where this PC is placed when in use. Most
people tend to stick their PCs into furniture where little air-flow
circulation is possible. If the air flow is "restricted" then the
PC's fans (case, CPU and PSU) will attempt to compensate, if they have
temp sensors. With these being in an older PC, these can get clogged
with dust and can not compensate enough to bring down the temps.

As a test, move the PC to a more open area, in hopes to improve the
air circulation.
 

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