Partitioning a 2tb hd for Windows 7 64 bit

D

dweebken

For most people, yes, since at least some data is irreplaceable.
However, for some, having a quickly-restorable working system is also
pretty important.
I just have one partition nowadays. And 8 GB ram on a Win 7 x64 system.
Swap file has been set to the same as the RAM, but it never gets used (I
monitor it). The 4 GB extra memory over my base system cost me something
like $40. Also I replaced the 720 RPM HDD with an SSD. Sure lots more
expensive per GB, but it simply flies like a rocket. I have a 64 GB
SanDisk USB backup stick plugged in all the time backing up my daily
data. Once a week or so I image the whole dataset to a USB3 External HDD
using AllwaySync which easliy lets me set up different data locations
and allows me to back up data from different places with one click (the
Sync All button). And once a month or so I clone the SSD to an external
USB3 disk which I can use to re-create my system any time in no time
flat. I have an older copy of the clone drive just in case I screw up
when making a new clone, and every now and then I do a duplicate of my
full data backup too. These duplicate clones and backup disks are kept
in separate buildings 99% of the time in case of theft or house fire.
And for good measure, all my family photos are on Skydrive in the cloud.

Think I'm reasonably safe. And with the RAM and SSD, the PC is just so
very very fast (and will never get a head crash with vibration & shock).

My experience with separate partitions was it's a nuisance trying to
separate the data from the system, it ends up with wasted space on the
HDD too, and achieves nothing I can't do better with AllwaySync. But
each to their own. I'm not preaching one solution over another. Just saying.

YMMV
 
A

Alias

Are you using ext4? You could lose data then.
Data loss occurs due to memory errors, data chip errors, cable drop
outs, and hard drive data drops. Unless you have ECC memory and other
hardware that detects these errors and corrects them, then you won't
have any guarantees.

I also back up everything to an external hard drive and two internal
hard drives. I've haven't lost anything since 1997.
 
K

Ken Blake

True. But some people seem to assume that just _because_ you have
partitions, you _are_ relying on them for data protection, which does
not follow.



Yes, that's exactly my point! What you said was "I always partition a
drive with a few dozen Gig for the system drive, and the rest for
data. It makes life a lot less risky when Windows suffers a brainfart
and dies. Your data is still safe. If you don't partition the drive,
when Windows barfs, your data, which is on the same drive, will
normally be deleted when you restore windows unless you're
very careful.

That suggests that having a separate partition for data is adequate
protection. My point is that it is *not* adequate protection, and that
therefore it is *not* a good reason for having a second partition for
data.


For most people, yes, since at least some data is irreplaceable.
However, for some, having a quickly-restorable working system is also
pretty important.


No argument from me about its importance (as I said, "although that's
good to do"). But your statement "And always have a backup somewhere
else, with an image of the working OS as installed on it" suggests
that that's what is *most* important, and that's what I disagree with,
strongly.
 
R

Rod Speed

No kidding. There's no such thing as enough space or never running out.

That's not so true now of non PVR laptops. Plenty don't fill those now.
My Win 7 media server has two volumes: C: is 75GB and D:
is 27.2TB, (80GB and 30TB unformatted), and it's a struggle
to keep some free space available on D:.

Yeah, I keep buying 2TB drives for mine, but that's mainly because
whenever I have a look at cleaning up the stuff I will never get around
to watching, I look at the price of another 2TB drive and just buy another.
On my Win 7 desktop, C: is 465GB and D: is 13TB, (500GB
and 15TB unformatted), and I'm down to about 2TB free.

I keep an eye on the price of 2TB drives since the floods
and buy another when the free gets below about 1TB.
 
R

Rod Speed

Tell me more about this swap file being used at boot time thing.

Win basically writes stuff to the swap file at boot time that it
decides that will likely be used once the system has fully booted,
basically because its quicker to get it from the swap file than to
get it from the normal system files with stuff like dlls and exes.
What special happens at boot time that necessitates the swap file?

Its not necessitates so much as is likely to be desirable to
make the system more responsive when its fully booted.
 
R

Rod Speed

Ed Light said:
Definitely, a small C: drive with the system and programs is the way to
go.

Not necessarily, particularly for the simpler users.

It's a non trivial exercise to keep the bulk of the data files
out of that even with Win7 for even quite competent users.
It's on the fastest part of the disk,

Yes, but that's a pretty minor consideration with modern drives.
and "short stroked".

That's not what the term means. It means a drive is
artificially restricted to a smaller size than it actually is.
And this is a big one for me: you can image it separately from all the
data, and restore it without back-dating your data.

You can do that with any decent backup app without it having its own
partition.
Also, you can do thinks like having My Documents on the data partition,
and in such a program as Thunderbird Mail, you can have the "profile"
folder with the settings and e-mail store in it, on the data partition.

But that isnt that trivial to organise for simpler users.
I like to put a smallish partition right after C: for heavily used data,
so the heads will be short-stroking

Again, you are mangling the use of that term...
and not have to reach deep into the disk.

That's a very minor consideration with modern fast seeking hard drives.
Then, the next one after that, would be a large multimedia partition, and
I put one for partition images at the end.

Its mad to keep the images on the drive that's got the
partitions being imaged on it.
I actually use the portable versions of several programs
(portableapps.com), so that they are totally independent from C:; I do
restore C: whenever it crashes, to keep it pristine.

Not really feasible if you configure the OS or apps much.
One kink in that is that portable firefox and portable thunderbird have to
both be running if you're going to call one from the other, or there are
issues.
If you use Boot It Bare Metal as your partition manager, imager, and boot
manager, you can have more than 4 partitions. You can only have 4 in any
one boot menu item, of course. That's why to make the data partitions
volumes in an extended partition.
All those data partitions are volumes in an extended partition.
 
R

Rod Speed

John Williamson said:
Rod Speed wrote
I do it my way because when (About once a year on average), not if,
Windows barfs big style,

I don't get anything like that.
It's usually something that can't be cured by restoring last week's image.

Corse it can.
I install Windows, do all the updates, check it's working as expected,
*then* record the clean Windows image.

I don't keep just one image of the OS and apps partition.

I do have an image of just the OS before any apps have
been installed, but hardly ever need to use that image,
only if a very badly behaved app mangles the OS install
completely when you don't install the app correctly and
that's hardly ever seen, and only seen once because I
document that app's behaviour.
Then, when I need to restore it, I can install the programs one at a time,
omitting the ones that I no longer use, after updating the old image to
the current state of Windows as it should be.

I don't do that often enough to need to do anything special.
I have 2 Gig of RAM on this netbook,

Yeah, that's much too little.
and even though Windows 7 very rarely uses more than a Gig of that, it
seems to run more smoothly with a swapfile enabled.

Yes, but the speed at which it uses it doesn't warrant
the very substantial cost of a much faster drive for it.

You're a lot better off spending much less on more physical ram instead.
It takes more or less the same time to boot, either way. <Shrug>

Sure, but I was commenting on your proposal to have a much
faster drive for the swap file. That almost never makes any sense.
If the swap file is used much, you need more physical ram instead.

The only real exception is when the motherboard cant
take anymore physical ram and so the cost of replacing
the motherboard, ram and cpu is substantial, or when
you cant use the 64bit version of the OS because one
of the apps or drivers isnt available or viable in 64bit form.
You've obviously never had a computer stolen or fail unexpectedly, then.

I've had both, and more than once in both cases too.
I have, which is why the laptop is the backup for the home PC and vice
versa.

I wasn't talking about backups. I was talking about images of the OS
partition.

If the system is stolen, you can always just do another clean
install of the OS if you have to and then restore the data backup.

Same with a system that fails unexpectedly.
It takes a few minutes each time they see each other on the network to
synchronise all the data files,

Again, that's data backup, not the image of the OS partition being
discussed.
and they have almost the same set of software installed.

My desktops and laptops generally don't.

I do save the backups of particular systems to
other desktops and laptops, and that's a better
approach than synching the data, particularly
when you do something stupid and change
some of the data inappropriately and want to
reverse that change etc.
Then there's the USB HD which gets connected and synchronised once a week
or so, or whenever I remember.

Some of us automate the backup so you don't have to remember.
So far, I've not accidentally lost a byte of data since about 1984.

I havent accidently lost a single byte of data since the
early 60s and that's over a much bigger collection of
machines than you have ever had anything to do with.
 
R

Rod Speed

dweebken said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote
I just have one partition nowadays. And 8 GB ram on a Win 7 x64 system.
Swap file has been set to the same as the RAM, but it never gets used (I
monitor it). The 4 GB extra memory over my base system cost me something
like $40. Also I replaced the 720 RPM HDD with an SSD. Sure lots more
expensive per GB, but it simply flies like a rocket. I have a 64 GB
SanDisk USB backup stick plugged in all the time backing up my daily data.
Once a week or so I image the whole dataset to a USB3 External HDD using
AllwaySync which easliy lets me set up different data locations and allows
me to back up data from different places with one click (the Sync All
button). And once a month or so I clone the SSD to an external USB3 disk
which I can use to re-create my system any time in no time flat. I have an
older copy of the clone drive just in case I screw up when making a new
clone, and every now and then I do a duplicate of my full data backup too.
These duplicate clones and backup disks are kept in separate buildings 99%
of the time in case of theft or house fire. And for good measure, all my
family photos are on Skydrive in the cloud.
Think I'm reasonably safe. And with the RAM and SSD, the PC is just so
very very fast (and will never get a head crash with vibration & shock).

But can have a problem with a mains failure that you wont see with a hard
drive.
 
R

Rod Speed

True, if they have no support at all. Glad we aren't in a news group
where
you could just type a message and then someone else could reply. ;-)

But even in that situation, you can make a case that those users
are better off with everything in a single partition, essentially
because they don’t have to ask about how to do that config.
I'd say anyone that can ask the right question in the right area,
can handle it.

Doesn’t mean that they will be able to recognise a correct
answer to their question, and can do what they are told
needs to be done, and can handle the situation where it
doesn’t go as described, particularly if it’s the only system
they have, so they don’t have any way to ask about how to
get out of the mess they are in if it all goes pear shaped etc
and the system is unusable until fixed etc.
About the only thing that would be
hard, is the size you'd make the "system",

That’s not right. Its also hard to recognise what
is the correct answer for them, and hard to do
what needs to be done correctly too.
and that was what was ask.

And even harder to identify the correct answer
on that, particularly when he never said much
about how the system will be used apps wise etc.
It's very easy under Windows 7.

Nope, not to move the My Documents folder alone, let alone
the other folders like Downloads and the mail folders.
Almost no data is stored anywhere but the "user" folder.

But it isnt a trivial exercise to move that and have
everything completely transparently keep all data
out of the OS and apps partition in the future.

And quite a bit of data isnt in the users folder anyway, most
obviously with Temporary Internet Files, Temp etc etc etc.
My entire "User" folder is not even on my "System" drive.

Sure, but it isnt a trivial exercise for the sort of simple user
that has to ask about whether to partition their hard drive
to do that, and no one actually suggested he do that anyway.
I would not recommend doing what I've done to the average Joe,

And that’s just as true of having a separate OS and apps partition
with no data in it.
but it was not "hard".

It is for the sort of simple user that has to ask about
whether to partition their hard drive to do that.
I would consider myself just average,

You arent anything like that, whatever you consider yourself to be.
or these days, a little below.

Even sillier.
(Silly, new fangled OS! If TTY was good enough
for dad, why would I need anything else!)
It's the only reason SSDs are faster that HDs.
Wrong.

I'd call that a major.

More fool you.
On a single track, most HDs can match a SSD in data output,

But not for reads.
it's when they change tracks that they truely loose the race.

That’s just plain wrong.
Very true.
You know of a free one that's a "non trivial exercise"?

Yep, for the sort of simple user that has to ask about
whether to partition their hard drive to do that.
Even my paid one, only a computer "geek" would know what folders
NOT to select to do a real system backup, but not get the data. No
you can't just exclude the "user" folder (system would not boot!).

That’s not right. The users folder would still be what it was before
the restore and so it would still boot fine after the restore.
True about Thunderbird, but that's because it has 2 sets of
data, and one is suppose to always be in the "user" area.
A document or a picture folder is very easy
to setup in Windows 7, using the "library".

But the sort of simple user that has to ask about whether
to partition their hard drive to do that doesn’t know that.
You can even set it as the default "save"
location, and all your docs would go there.

But that doesn’t necessarily determine where all the apps put the data.
Agree, again.
Sure is, except as a tempory location for a "data" backup elsewhere!!!
Most likely failure is Power supply, then HD, then everything else, on a
desktop.

Not necessarily with some OSs.

And most desktop power supply failures don’t risk
your data, so the hard drive should be first on the list.
Laptop ... I'm not going there!

Its hardly ever the power supply with those. A power
supply failure doesn’t normally risk your data with those.

Theft is much more likely to be the reason to need the backup.
Then you've never used portableapps.

Doesn’t help with the OS config.
They have their own "data" area in the portable folder.
Just like a full blown system, but no data is added o the
system. True, there are some limits, like you can not use
file "opens with",

Which is why I don’t use it. I use that almost exclusively.
but if you do the "open" inside the program,

No thanks, much too clumsy.
it works just like any other program. I'd NEVER use it for MY system,

Me neither.
but it's still very user friendly for "visiting" someone
elses system when you don't have install rights.

I don’t ever want to do that.
Friend uses it ALL the time at work.

I don’t.
 
J

John Williamson

Ken said:
Yes, that's exactly my point! What you said was "I always partition a
drive with a few dozen Gig for the system drive, and the rest for
data. It makes life a lot less risky when Windows suffers a brainfart
and dies. Your data is still safe. If you don't partition the drive,
when Windows barfs, your data, which is on the same drive, will
normally be deleted when you restore windows unless you're
very careful.

That suggests that having a separate partition for data is adequate
protection. My point is that it is *not* adequate protection, and that
therefore it is *not* a good reason for having a second partition for
data.
It might suggest that it is an adequate backup to you, it doesn't to me,
which is why I also recommended backups on other devices (Note the
plurals). The separation of data and programs is only for convenience
when restoring a corrupt Windows installation. Backups are a whole
different subject.
 
A

Alias

Just as long as you haven't done an upgrade on line of course. There is
one that has that problem... Ubuntu.

I always to a clean install and use Linux Mint.
Maybe this is of interest to you:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/d...-on-dimm-street/638?tag=content;siu-container


Hopefully this url isn't munged up too bad.

But the article is rather clear about using non ECC memory.
You can blame Intel on this problem, as they have yet to really address
this problem properly and at a low cost for the consumer.
A lot of people don't know about this and aren't even aware of it.

The RAM I use is CE by Kingston. I haven't had any of the problems your
link refers to.
 
D

dweebken

But can have a problem with a mains failure that you wont see with a
hard drive.
Not really. My laptop keeps going on battery for hours after a mains
failure, and everything else is on a UPS that's good for about 90 mins.
Home type UPSs aren't so expensive these days.
 
A

Alias

That is because there is nothing in software or hardware that will tell
you that you've got a problem. The article is quite firm about this.
All ram without any detection will eventually corrupt data.
This is a known fact.

I must be lucky, then, because all my data is just fine and has been
since 97. Either that or the article, firm as it may be, is incorrect.
 
R

Rod Speed

Some terminal ****wit claiming to be
just the puerile shit that's all it can ever manage.
 

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