Partition Magic Incompatibility??

G

Guest

I just took delivery of a new system with Windows xp, sp2 and two 120 gig
SATA hard drives. Since the os was set up to use all of drive 1 I
repartitioned it with Partition Magic so has to have a smaller c: partition
and then an extended partition with d:, e:, and f:. The second drive was set
up as an extended partition with logical drive g:, to be used for backups. I
should mention that the video card is an ATI All In Wonder X600 Pro.

I had no end of problems: The floppy drive wouldn't respond, the video
would only play tv for about 5 minutes before freezing and locking up the
system and the dvd would only transfer large files (from my old computer to
the new using DVD/RW) without locking up and freezing the system after
several minutes of downloading. In addition, the ATI configuration utility
said that DMA was not enabled on the hard drives (it was).

I took the system back to the dealer, and his suspicion was that Partition
Magic had screwed up the system. The solution was to wipe everything clean
and start over. After doing so, he claims everything is ok. Because of the
holidays I won't be able to pick it up for a week or so.

Since the disk manager in windows xp won't resize partitions, I will have to
basically waste most of the c: drive unless I use Partition Magic, but that
puts me vulnerable to cause the whole set of problems again--if that was the
cause, but I don't know what else to think.

I have heard that Partition Magic can cause problems with SATA drives, and I
am also wondering if the ATI card has some issues with SATA drives.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

Stu Culp
 
K

Kerry Brown

Stu said:
I just took delivery of a new system with Windows xp, sp2 and two 120
gig SATA hard drives. Since the os was set up to use all of drive 1 I
repartitioned it with Partition Magic so has to have a smaller c:
partition and then an extended partition with d:, e:, and f:. The
second drive was set up as an extended partition with logical drive
g:, to be used for backups. I should mention that the video card is
an ATI All In Wonder X600 Pro.

I had no end of problems: The floppy drive wouldn't respond, the
video would only play tv for about 5 minutes before freezing and
locking up the system and the dvd would only transfer large files
(from my old computer to the new using DVD/RW) without locking up and
freezing the system after several minutes of downloading. In
addition, the ATI configuration utility said that DMA was not enabled
on the hard drives (it was).

I took the system back to the dealer, and his suspicion was that
Partition Magic had screwed up the system. The solution was to wipe
everything clean and start over. After doing so, he claims
everything is ok. Because of the holidays I won't be able to pick it
up for a week or so.

Since the disk manager in windows xp won't resize partitions, I will
have to basically waste most of the c: drive unless I use Partition
Magic, but that puts me vulnerable to cause the whole set of problems
again--if that was the cause, but I don't know what else to think.

I have heard that Partition Magic can cause problems with SATA
drives, and I am also wondering if the ATI card has some issues with
SATA drives.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

Stu Culp

It sounds like a hardware problem to me. When you get it back test it for
several days before changing the partition structure. Alternatively do a
clean install of Windows deleting all the partitions and create one
partition of the size you want for the OS. Once Windows is installed use the
Disk Management console to make the rest of the partitions. This eliminates
Partition Magic from the equation.

Kerry
 
A

Anna

Stu Culp said:
I just took delivery of a new system with Windows xp, sp2 and two 120 gig
SATA hard drives. Since the os was set up to use all of drive 1 I
repartitioned it with Partition Magic so has to have a smaller c:
partition
and then an extended partition with d:, e:, and f:. The second drive was
set
up as an extended partition with logical drive g:, to be used for backups.
I
should mention that the video card is an ATI All In Wonder X600 Pro.

I had no end of problems: The floppy drive wouldn't respond, the video
would only play tv for about 5 minutes before freezing and locking up the
system and the dvd would only transfer large files (from my old computer
to
the new using DVD/RW) without locking up and freezing the system after
several minutes of downloading. In addition, the ATI configuration
utility
said that DMA was not enabled on the hard drives (it was).

I took the system back to the dealer, and his suspicion was that Partition
Magic had screwed up the system. The solution was to wipe everything
clean
and start over. After doing so, he claims everything is ok. Because of
the
holidays I won't be able to pick it up for a week or so.

Since the disk manager in windows xp won't resize partitions, I will have
to
basically waste most of the c: drive unless I use Partition Magic, but
that
puts me vulnerable to cause the whole set of problems again--if that was
the
cause, but I don't know what else to think.

I have heard that Partition Magic can cause problems with SATA drives, and
I
am also wondering if the ATI card has some issues with SATA drives.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

Stu Culp


Stu:
First of all, our experience with using Partition Magic, the 8.01 version
which I assume you're using, has been positive with respect to basic
manipulation of SATA hard drives involving partition sizing and merging of
partitions. We do *not* use PM for partitioning purposes involving
new/unpartitioned drives. In those cases we either use the XP installation
CD where the OS is being installed on the drive or in the case of a
secondary HD about to be installed we use XP's Disk Management utility to
partition/format the drive.

As to your problem, it's hard, if not impossible to determine at this point
whether PM was the cause of the problem. It doesn't sound like it from what
you've described but who knows? It sounds to me like your dealer has the
right "fix" at least at this point. Time will tell if there's a hardware
problem after you get the computer back.

But the real purpose of my response to you is to get you thinking about
another backup strategy once your machine is back & running. Since you have
two internal HDs, consider using a disk imaging program such as Symantec's
Norton Ghost or Acronis True Image, to "clone" the contents of your
day-to-day working HD to your second HD. Having (in effect) a bit-for-bit
copy of your working HD on a second HD will give you the kind of peace of
mind that's hard to get using any other backup system. And thereby achieving
that new-found safety & flexibility, you may want to rethink your present
partitioning scheme.
Anna
 
S

Squire

Just a note here, Anna,

Partition Magic can COPY a bootable mirror image to an unallocated space on
the second hard drive. So he doesn't have to buy Norton's Ghost.

Jerry

--
Quote from Maxine -
"Time flies when you're spoiling someone else's fun"


<Snip>
 
H

Hoppy

Stu wrote on Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:09:01 -0800:

I just took delivery of a new system with Windows xp, sp2 and two 120 gig
SATA hard drives. Since the os was set up to use all of drive 1 I
repartitioned it with Partition Magic so has to have a smaller c: partition
and then an extended partition with d:, e:, and f:. The second drive was
set
up as an extended partition with logical drive g:, to be used for backups.
I
should mention that the video card is an ATI All In Wonder X600 Pro.

SC> I had no end of problems: The floppy drive wouldn't respond, the video
SC> would only play tv for about 5 minutes before freezing and locking up
SC> the system and the dvd would only transfer large files (from my old
SC> computer to the new using DVD/RW) without locking up and freezing the
SC> system after several minutes of downloading. In addition, the ATI
SC> configuration utility said that DMA was not enabled on the hard drives
SC> (it was).

SC> I took the system back to the dealer, and his suspicion was that
SC> Partition Magic had screwed up the system. The solution was to wipe
SC> everything clean and start over. After doing so, he claims everything
SC> is ok. Because of the holidays I won't be able to pick it up for a
SC> week or so.

SC> Since the disk manager in windows xp won't resize partitions, I will
SC> have to basically waste most of the c: drive unless I use Partition
SC> Magic, but that puts me vulnerable to cause the whole set of problems
SC> again--if that was the cause, but I don't know what else to think.

SC> I have heard that Partition Magic can cause problems with SATA drives,
SC> and I am also wondering if the ATI card has some issues with SATA
SC> drives.

SC> Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

--
My 2 cents:

I used PM to slice 'n' dice my HDDs with absolutely no problem on WinXP Pro
SP2... unfortunately, I don't remember with which version I started. It was
v8 point something. After initially installing XP, I used PM to increase my
C: partition to 10GB after realizing what a hog XP actually is.

I currently run PM v8.05 and have used it flawlessly to create, move and
copy partitions on my 80GB PATA and 250GB SATA drives. My current setup has
6 partitions on each HDD, most of which are formatted as NTFS. BTW, I use
an ATI 9800 AIW Pro card. It SOUNDS like your issue is not with PM.

The only issue I've encountered with formerly PowerQuest programs was with
Drive Image 2002, now Symantec's Ghost 2002 or something or other. DI2002
would not work when I installed my SATA drive. I'm still not sure if DI has
issues with SATA or with the size of the HDD.

....sorry, but that's all I've got. ...except to say to heed Anna's advice
about imaging your drives/partitions. I have a partition set up on my
second HDD expressly for images, and image my C: (OS) and D: (programs) at
least weekly. It has saved my butt many times.

There is an excellent article on partition planning here:
http://aumha.org/a/parts.php

Good luck and Merry Christmas...
 
R

Rick

Stu said:
I just took delivery of a new system with Windows xp, sp2 and two 120 gig
SATA hard drives. Since the os was set up to use all of drive 1 I
repartitioned it with Partition Magic so has to have a smaller c: partition
and then an extended partition with d:, e:, and f:. The second drive was set
up as an extended partition with logical drive g:, to be used for backups. I
should mention that the video card is an ATI All In Wonder X600 Pro.

I had no end of problems: The floppy drive wouldn't respond, the video
would only play tv for about 5 minutes before freezing and locking up the
system and the dvd would only transfer large files (from my old computer to
the new using DVD/RW) without locking up and freezing the system after
several minutes of downloading. In addition, the ATI configuration utility
said that DMA was not enabled on the hard drives (it was).

I took the system back to the dealer, and his suspicion was that Partition
Magic had screwed up the system. The solution was to wipe everything clean
and start over. After doing so, he claims everything is ok. Because of the
holidays I won't be able to pick it up for a week or so.

Since the disk manager in windows xp won't resize partitions, I will have to
basically waste most of the c: drive unless I use Partition Magic, but that
puts me vulnerable to cause the whole set of problems again--if that was the
cause, but I don't know what else to think.

I have heard that Partition Magic can cause problems with SATA drives, and I
am also wondering if the ATI card has some issues with SATA drives.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

Stu Culp
I have used V8.0 of Partition Magic on a 64 bit AMD system with an ATI
xt800 video card I have never had problems but, on the other hand I have
not used it on the Raid configuration.

Rick
 
R

Rick

Anna said:
Stu:
First of all, our experience with using Partition Magic, the 8.01 version
which I assume you're using, has been positive with respect to basic
manipulation of SATA hard drives involving partition sizing and merging of
partitions. We do *not* use PM for partitioning purposes involving
new/unpartitioned drives. In those cases we either use the XP installation
CD where the OS is being installed on the drive or in the case of a
secondary HD about to be installed we use XP's Disk Management utility to
partition/format the drive.

As to your problem, it's hard, if not impossible to determine at this point
whether PM was the cause of the problem. It doesn't sound like it from what
you've described but who knows? It sounds to me like your dealer has the
right "fix" at least at this point. Time will tell if there's a hardware
problem after you get the computer back.

But the real purpose of my response to you is to get you thinking about
another backup strategy once your machine is back & running. Since you have
two internal HDs, consider using a disk imaging program such as Symantec's
Norton Ghost or Acronis True Image, to "clone" the contents of your
day-to-day working HD to your second HD. Having (in effect) a bit-for-bit
copy of your working HD on a second HD will give you the kind of peace of
mind that's hard to get using any other backup system. And thereby achieving
that new-found safety & flexibility, you may want to rethink your present
partitioning scheme.
Anna
yes all true except if you have damage to the HD's from a large static
charge or direct lightening hit. A better backup system would be to use
an external HD. They are very inexpensive.

Rick
 
A

Anna

Rick said:
yes all true except if you have damage to the HD's from a large static
charge or direct lightening hit. A better backup system would be to use
an external HD. They are very inexpensive.

Rick


Rick:
Yes, I most certainly agree that when using a disk imaging program to clone
the contents of one's HD to another HD the user will be better served by
having a USB/Firewire external HD as his or her destination drive rather
than cloning to another internal HD. But since the OP already had two
internal drives installed I thought I would at least point him the "disk
imaging cloning" direction.

Actually, in my view, an even better system - and the one we've been using
for many years now and encourage our customers to use - is to equip one's
desktop computer with two removable hard drives in their mobile racks. The
flexibility, not to say peace of mind, you get with this arrangement is
enormous, both in terms of using backup systems as well as general
day-to-day computer operations. As I've stated many times, once you begin
working with this hardware arrangement you have but one regret. And that is
that your previous desktop computers weren't so equipped. It's that good.
Anna
 
R

Rick

Anna said:
Rick:
Yes, I most certainly agree that when using a disk imaging program to clone
the contents of one's HD to another HD the user will be better served by
having a USB/Firewire external HD as his or her destination drive rather
than cloning to another internal HD. But since the OP already had two
internal drives installed I thought I would at least point him the "disk
imaging cloning" direction.

Actually, in my view, an even better system - and the one we've been using
for many years now and encourage our customers to use - is to equip one's
desktop computer with two removable hard drives in their mobile racks. The
flexibility, not to say peace of mind, you get with this arrangement is
enormous, both in terms of using backup systems as well as general
day-to-day computer operations. As I've stated many times, once you begin
working with this hardware arrangement you have but one regret. And that is
that your previous desktop computers weren't so equipped. It's that good.
Anna
That is excellent
Rick
 
M

Mike Fields

Rick said:
yes all true except if you have damage to the HD's from a large static
charge or direct lightening hit. A better backup system would be to use
an external HD. They are very inexpensive.

Rick

Actually, nothing that dramatic is required -- my daughters system
blew a power supply - when it went, it let the magic smoke out of
the disk drive (hole in the top of the controller chip), CD-ROM
drive and mother board. Fortunately, I did have an image of the
system on a DVD and restored it to another with the same mother
board etc. BUT, in general, ANY backup is better than what
most people have (reminds me I need to get mine all backed up
this week). The removable drives are excellent, but my experience
has been that the fans on the removable cages are not rated for
thousands of hours so it is a good idea not to have the "caged"
drive plugged in all the time (and to protect it from "strange"
things like power supply failures etc too).

mikey
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

"Stu Culp" wrote in message

Sounds good, though it's not a spec I'd have chosen if I was not
chained to an OS that wasn't OK > 137G. One 200G would have been
cheaper than 2 x 120G, or I'd have gone 2 x 200G.

I like your partitioning approach, though. I use BING
(www.bootitng.com) instead of PM, though; it works as well, and the
pricing and vendor relations are less bloody-minded than PM.

I cannot see the connection with PM here; more likely something was
disturbed when moving hardware around, or damaged if you were doing
this with the mains plugged in and the system "off" (ATX "off" isn't)

I would not allow Windows to boot again, until I'd left this PC
running MemTest on all tests overnight without errors or hangs, and
seen the HD passed as faultless via www.hdtune.com

Sounds like a dealer to avoid.

False; PM is not the only fish in the sea, and just because MS don't
make it, doesn't mean it can't be done.
We do *not* use PM for partitioning purposes involving new/unpartitioned
drives. In those cases we either use the XP installation CD where the OS
is being installed on the drive or in the case of a secondary HD about to
be installed we use XP's Disk Management utility to partition/format.

I use BING instead of XP there, because XP is too useless to create
and format volumes larger than 32G with FAT32 as the file system.
It sounds to me like your dealer has the right "fix" at least at this point.

A dealer who summarally destroys an installation as a first "fix" is
one that I wouldn't brake for on the highway.
Time will tell if there's a hardware problem after you get the computer back.

Hardware diagnostics have been known to help too. Did your dealer
bother to run any, and tell you what they found? I agree that some
components are inherently untestable (mobo, SVGA, PSU etc.) so that
you may still have to wait-and-see after diagnostics pass what can be
tested, but it disturbs me that you didn't mention such tests at all.
But the real purpose of my response to you is to get you thinking about
another backup strategy once your machine is back & running. Since you have
two internal HDs, consider using a disk imaging program such as Symantec's
Norton Ghost or Acronis True Image, to "clone" the contents of your
day-to-day working HD to your second HD. Having (in effect) a bit-for-bit
copy of your working HD on a second HD will give you the kind of peace of
mind that's hard to get using any other backup system. And thereby achieving
that new-found safety & flexibility, you may want to rethink your present
partitioning scheme.

There's a lot of pros and cons here, and I see one of the most common
fallacies in the above - that creating a backup of everything is
enough to ensure successful recovery.

Building a backup is only half the story. You also have to be able to
not only restore that backup, but also use that material short of a
full restore to fix minor problems without unacceptable colateral
damage. A "full system backup" that can only be used to wipe and
start over, is going to be near-useless if all you wanted to do was
recover a single data file you lost a week ago, before creating lots
of new data and/or installing new software.

First up is the question of image vs. file backups.

Unlike Win9x, XP is too fragile to survive a file-level backup and
restore, so you are obliged to do an image backup of C: (or possibly
both C: and whatever volume the OS is installed on - I don't know
where the fragility is sited).

Image backups are a pain, because they are large, and difficult to
pull data out of without steamrolling the whole image back in place.
You can get cheap or free tools to spawn and restore full image
backups, though typically these operate outside of Windows; I don't
think any of these allow the image copy to be browsed as if it was a
"live" file sytsem, so that loose files can be restored.

So for this reason, I like a small C: containing the OS, and all data
held off C: on other volumes. That way, C: is smaller and faster to
image, repair via post-bad-exit AutoChk, defrag and so on, plus the
storage requirements for the image backups are less onerous. With an
8G C:, multiple images of various dates can be held in a single 90G
volume on the same HD, or separate HD, and if the contents of C: are
small enough, a "smart" image may fit on a DVDR, allowing unlimited
old-date image backup retention with zero HD footprint.

Next is backup depth and survivability.

The backup concept is to retain all wanted changes while losing all
unwanted changes. How is this magical outcome to be achieved? The
key is scoping out unwanted changes from wanted ones.

The normal scope is time. The idea is that unwanted changes will come
to light immediately, and there will be a backup that is free of such
changes, while recent enough for lost wanted changes to be an
acceptable loss. This approach is poorwhen dealing with malware that
may be entrenched and pervade all backups for months, before hatching
a destructive payload - blind backup/restore is generally poor there.

So you want to scope things differently, to manage situations where
the unwanted change extends far back in time, and/or you cannot afford
to lose all wanted changes applied since the restore point.

A good way to scope is to isolate data from version-bound,
hardware-bound and infectable code. That way, you can always safely
restore your data even if the software version changes, a different
replacement PC is to be used, or the system was riddled with malware.

Using partitioning to locate data off C: is a good start to this
process, which continues through data hygiene, i.e. ensuring the
backed-up data is malware-free.

If the backups are small enough to fit on cheap removable media, you
can keep an unlimited number of backups from different dates. A small
C: means you can do this on DVDR, hopefully without having to span
disks, and a small data set means you can hold file-level (browsable)
data backups on CDR or even (shudder) 1.44M diskettes.

If the backups are too large, so that you are forced to store and keep
only one backup at a time, then things are far less rosy - and that's
what I have against Anna's solution of two 120G HDs with one being
imaged over to the other, or (a refinement to assist survivability of
disasters that might eat the entire PC) a "live" HD that is imaged to
an external HD. Typical one-shot backup storage include HDs, whether
these be real-time (RAID 1), internal or external, and USB sticks.

Next is backup useability.

You want a backup that can be browsed, so that loose files can be
picked out and restored. This is to better manage small hassles, such
as the corruption of one file, as opposed to dealing with the big
melt-downs. A common mistake is to plan only for the latter.

What I do, is as follows:
- C: is 7.99G (4k clusters on FAT32); episodic imaging via BING
- D: is 2G FAT16 (large clusters, easy manual file system repair)
- E: is laaarge FAT32
- F: is 7.99G FAT32

User data is herded into a subtree in D:, while all bulky and risky
(incoming) material is located on E:. An automatic overnight Task
archives the data subtree on D: to volume F:, which is sized so that
the backup subtree can easily be dumped on DVDR(W). The last 5 of
these automatically-generated data backups are retained on F:

Now if there's a little data glitch, it's easy to browse the data
archives in F: and pick out the file to recover. If the C: melts
down, it can be restored from image while leaving other volumes
intact. Something that eats the whole HD forces a rebuild or image
restore, restore of data backup, restore of any large content backups
from E: that may have been done, etc.

I refine this in small LANs by read-sharing the backup location and
having other PCs on the LAN pull and store the most recent data
backups later on each night, as another automatic Task. Once again,
it's easy to pull this accumulated backup set onto DVDR(W).

If a second HD is available, then it makes more sense to store the
auto-backups there - but you still need to hedge against disasters
that impact on the whole PC (theft, fire, lightening, etc.)


--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
First, the good Customer feedback has
been clear and unambiguous.
 
K

Kerry Brown

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:

snip
What I do, is as follows:
- C: is 7.99G (4k clusters on FAT32); episodic imaging via BING
- D: is 2G FAT16 (large clusters, easy manual file system repair)
- E: is laaarge FAT32
- F: is 7.99G FAT32

While I generally agree with your backup strategy I think you are doing no
one a favour by recommending FAT over NTFS especially in a networked
environment. As you are an MVP I'll assume you know the arguments for and
against and have your reasons. For most people I think it is a mistake.

Kerry
 
H

Hoppy

Hi ...

Pardon me for jumping in here, but the subject of data backup and recovery
is of great interest to me. Unfortunately, for many people backups end up
being something wished for after it's too late.

Your dissertation is well-written, and I agree with most of it. However, I
take exception to your discussion of images. If I understand you correctly,
I believe your backup philosophy may change somewhat in light of the
flexibility of recent imaging software.

Please bear in mind that my imaging references use Norton Ghost 9 as a
benchmark. I much prefer PowerQuest's Drive Image, but it just doesn't like
my 250 GB SATA drive. But, since Symantec bought PowerQuest, Ghost 9 is
essentially the same as DI6 -- except it's bloated, takes longer and
produces larger images. I have not yet seen Ghost 10. I don't like True
Image, and I'm totally unfamiliar with BING.

cquirke wrote on Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:00:43 +0200:
<snipped>

cMW> Image backups are a pain, because they are large, and difficult to
cMW> pull data out of without steamrolling the whole image back in place.
cMW> You can get cheap or free tools to spawn and restore full image
cMW> backups, though typically these operate outside of Windows; I don't
cMW> think any of these allow the image copy to be browsed as if it was a
cMW> "live" file sytsem, so that loose files can be restored.

ANY file from an image can be viewed or restored to any location, original
or otherwise; this includes anything from a single file to a single
directory to an entire drive. It's not at all difficult. The image can
indeed be browsed as if it were a live system. It is totally untrue that
the entire drive's image need be restored.

I believe (-- but I'm not sure since I don't use it --) there is also an
incremental backup option available; that is, only files that have changed
since your last image will be imaged.

As far as image size is concerned : several (4-5 ?) compression levels are
available. There is also a "Maximum file size" option if you want to break
up the image file(s).

An image is produced for individual drives/partitions; if more than one
drive is imaged, an index file is created so that all drives may be restored
as a set.

All of the above can be accomplished either while running XP or from Ghost's
autoboot CD.

<snipped>

cMW> What I do, is as follows:
cMW> - C: is 7.99G (4k clusters on FAT32); episodic imaging via BING
cMW> - D: is 2G FAT16 (large clusters, easy manual file system repair)
cMW> - E: is laaarge FAT32
cMW> - F: is 7.99G FAT32

FYI, my partition scheme is as follows (sizes are rounded, all NTFS format):
HDD0 - 80GB PATA
- C: WinXP Pro - 9 GB
- D: Programs - 9.5GB
- E: Storage - 15 GB
- F: Temp - 11.5 GB
- G: Documents - 5 GB
- H: Games - 28 GB
HDD1 - 250GB SATA
- O: Cache - 4GB
- I : Backup -24GB
- J : Images -36GB
- K: Download -11.5GB
- L: Archives -12.5GB
- M: Graphix -50GB
- N: Spare -102GB

I also maintain a hand-written log of software & hardware changes (-- I am a
chronic tweaker --) so that, if a restore of my C: & D: drives is necessary,
I can pickup exactly where I left off, excluding any self-imposed injury, of
course.
 
M

Mike Fields

Sort of another part of the picture here - be aware
that many of the "incremental backup" features in
programs like "true image" (which they almost have
working right according to the forums) is based on
sectors that have been changed. If you defrag your
drive after a full backup, depending on how much
gets moved around (even if the file does not change),
will get included in an incremental backup. You only
have to delete a couple of big files and defrag for LOTS
of stuff to move around. Not necessarily "bad", but
something to be aware of in your backup plans.

mikey
 
H

Hoppy

I've always had a basic apprehension of incremental backups and have never
used them nor do I plan to. Thanks .... Hoppy
~~

Mike wrote on Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:10:41 -0800:

Sort of another part of the picture here - be aware
that many of the "incremental backup" features in
programs like "true image" (which they almost have
working right according to the forums) is based on
sectors that have been changed. If you defrag your
drive after a full backup, depending on how much
gets moved around (even if the file does not change),
will get included in an incremental backup. You only
have to delete a couple of big files and defrag for LOTS
of stuff to move around. Not necessarily "bad", but
something to be aware of in your backup plans.

mikey

MF> "Hoppy" wrote: ??>> Hi ...

??>> Pardon me for jumping in here, but the subject of data backup and
recovery
??>> is of great interest to me. Unfortunately, for many people backups
end up
??>> being something wished for after it's too late.
??>>
??>> Your dissertation is well-written, and I agree with most of it.
However, I
??>> take exception to your discussion of images. If I understand you
correctly,
??>> I believe your backup philosophy may change somewhat in light of the
??>> flexibility of recent imaging software.
??>>
??>> Please bear in mind that my imaging references use Norton Ghost 9 as a
??>> benchmark. I much prefer PowerQuest's Drive Image, but it just doesn't
like
??>> my 250 GB SATA drive. But, since Symantec bought PowerQuest, Ghost 9
is
??>> essentially the same as DI6 -- except it's bloated, takes longer and
??>> produces larger images. I have not yet seen Ghost 10. I don't like
True
??>> Image, and I'm totally unfamiliar with BING.
??>>
??>> cquirke wrote on Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:00:43 +0200:
??>> <snipped>
??>>
cMW>>> Image backups are a pain, because they are large, and difficult to
cMW>>> pull data out of without steamrolling the whole image back in place.
cMW>>> You can get cheap or free tools to spawn and restore full image
cMW>>> backups, though typically these operate outside of Windows; I don't
cMW>>> think any of these allow the image copy to be browsed as if it was a
cMW>>> "live" file sytsem, so that loose files can be restored.
??>>
??>> ANY file from an image can be viewed or restored to any location,
original
??>> or otherwise; this includes anything from a single file to a single
??>> directory to an entire drive. It's not at all difficult. The image
can
??>> indeed be browsed as if it were a live system. It is totally untrue
that
??>> the entire drive's image need be restored.
??>>
??>> I believe (-- but I'm not sure since I don't use it --) there is also
an
??>> incremental backup option available; that is, only files that have
changed
??>> since your last image will be imaged.
??>>
??>> As far as image size is concerned : several (4-5 ?) compression levels
are
??>> available. There is also a "Maximum file size" option if you want to
break
??>> up the image file(s).
??>>
??>> An image is produced for individual drives/partitions; if more than
one
??>> drive is imaged, an index file is created so that all drives may be
restored
??>> as a set.
??>>
??>> All of the above can be accomplished either while running XP or from
Ghost's
??>> autoboot CD.
??>> <snipped>
cMW>>> What I do, is as follows:
cMW>>> - C: is 7.99G (4k clusters on FAT32); episodic imaging via BING
cMW>>> - D: is 2G FAT16 (large clusters, easy manual file system repair)
cMW>>> - E: is laaarge FAT32
cMW>>> - F: is 7.99G FAT32
??>>
??>> FYI, my partition scheme is as follows (sizes are rounded, all NTFS
format):
??>> HDD0 - 80GB PATA
??>> - C: WinXP Pro - 9 GB
??>> - D: Programs - 9.5GB
??>> - E: Storage - 15 GB
??>> - F: Temp - 11.5 GB
??>> - G: Documents - 5 GB
??>> - H: Games - 28 GB
??>> HDD1 - 250GB SATA
??>> - O: Cache - 4GB
??>> - I : Backup -24GB
??>> - J : Images -36GB
??>> - K: Download -11.5GB
??>> - L: Archives -12.5GB
??>> - M: Graphix -50GB
??>> - N: Spare -102GB
??>>
??>> I also maintain a hand-written log of software & hardware changes (--
I am a
??>> chronic tweaker --) so that, if a restore of my C: & D: drives is
necessary,
??>> I can pickup exactly where I left off, excluding any self-imposed
injury, of
??>> course.
??>> --
??>> Hoppy
??>> (e-mail address removed)
??>> ~~
~~
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
While I generally agree with your backup strategy I think you are doing no
one a favour by recommending FAT over NTFS especially in a networked
environment. As you are an MVP I'll assume you know the arguments for and
against and have your reasons. For most people I think it is a mistake.

This is a controversial topic, and I'm aware of the party line.

http://cquirke.mvps.org/ntfs.htm refers.

For a pro-admin'd network, I would agree with you - there, NTFS is an
essential component in a pro-managed soultion that extends from custom
user permissions control (which needs NTFS) to effective backup (which
mitigates against poor data recovery options).

In consumerland, the benefits are less clear-cut. Thanks to Bart PE,
it is now possible to formally manage malware about as easily on NTFS
as it is on FATxx, but the tools and documentation for data recovery,
manual file system repair etc. are still abysmal for NTFS.

Only if you so confident in your backups that you can consider the HD
contents as disposable, would NTFS be anything like a no-brainer.


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:00:44 -0500, "Hoppy"
Your dissertation is well-written, and I agree with most of it. However, I
take exception to your discussion of images. If I understand you correctly,
I believe your backup philosophy may change somewhat in light of the
flexibility of recent imaging software.

This is something I hope will filter down to freeware; the ability to
browse image backups as if they were live file systems, and perhaps to
create these from within Windows as an overnight task.

On "full system backups within Windows", shadow copying will allow
files "in use" to be backed up, but these files may in fact be
incomplete, pending material still buffered in memory. Restoring a
full system backup made under such circumstances will be akin to
suffering a bad exit at that point in the Windows session - plus the
full system backup takes so long that new files may be created and
others changed or deleted during the time it is done.

The results will still be better than nothing, but may be not so good
that you could treat the live installation as disposable. There's a
tendency for backup believers to dismiss all other forms of
maintenance (malware cleanup, data recovery) as redundant, because
they can "just" restore the last full system backup.

Aside from the above concerns, there's the problem of lost wanted
changes made since the backup, and restored unwanted changes.
Please bear in mind that my imaging references use Norton Ghost 9 as a
benchmark. I much prefer PowerQuest's Drive Image, but it just doesn't like
my 250 GB SATA drive. But, since Symantec bought PowerQuest, Ghost 9 is
essentially the same as DI6 -- except it's bloated, takes longer and
produces larger images. I have not yet seen Ghost 10. I don't like True
Image, and I'm totally unfamiliar with BING.

These are all feeware, right?
The image can indeed be browsed as if it were a live system. It is
totally untrue that the entire drive's image need be restored.

Are there any freeware tools that provide the above functionality?

Y'see, if it's free, it's a no-brainer. If it's feeware, then someone
has to take the decision to buy it, and until that time, nothing
happens. The decision depends on how well the solution works, which
may not be testable unless you warez it first (which I won't).

It also comes down to whether the solution will be used - it may not
be, if the process of making the image backup is tedious, or requires
excessive storage resources.

Then finally, it depends on whether the scenarios where it will help,
actually happen often enough to be worth hedging.

Using BING as a volume imager requires attended initiation of the
process from a non-HD boot, and I generally do this only before doing
things known to pose risks, such as resizing partitions.

Using a tool that can create such images as an unattended Task in
Windows would be easier to live with, especially if C: were small,
each browsable image were complete, and multiple images could be
stored without having to interactively change media.

That would be easy enough to actually do; then it's a matter of
whether the results will solve problems that occur commonly enough to
be worth the cost (a no-brainer, if it's free).

I'd still prefer file-level data backup, though - both to exclude
version/hardware/malware code risks, and because the restoration
flexibility of a .ZIP (DOS, any Win9x, Mac, Linux etc.) is far better
than a propriatary image file format that can be read only by one
particular feeware tool. Unless there is a volume image standard?
I believe (-- but I'm not sure since I don't use it --) there is also an
incremental backup option available; that is, only files that have changed
since your last image will be imaged.

I don't like the fragility of incrimental or disk-spanning backups.
FYI, my partition scheme is as follows (sizes are rounded, all NTFS format):
HDD0 - 80GB PATA
- C: WinXP Pro - 9 GB
- D: Programs - 9.5GB
- E: Storage - 15 GB
- F: Temp - 11.5 GB
- G: Documents - 5 GB
- H: Games - 28 GB

If those are naturally enumerated, I'd move Temp from F: to E: (or D:)
for faster access, and Storage to the very end. Else you'd have the
heads stepping over 15G of inert storage to reach Temp; ungood.
HDD1 - 250GB SATA
- O: Cache - 4GB
- I : Backup -24GB
- J : Images -36GB
- K: Download -11.5GB
- L: Archives -12.5GB
- M: Graphix -50GB
- N: Spare -102GB

Again, I'd prolly move Backup from I: to the end of the HD; it's also
more likely to survive if you get a wear-pattern media failure, as the
heads would rarely overfly the volume.
I also maintain a hand-written log of software & hardware changes (-- I am a
chronic tweaker --) so that, if a restore of my C: & D: drives is necessary,
I can pickup exactly where I left off, excluding any self-imposed injury, of
course.

I tend to export .REG of things I change, etc. as well as create
explicit SR points before doing hairy things :)


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
K

Kerry Brown

cquirke said:
This is a controversial topic, and I'm aware of the party line.

http://cquirke.mvps.org/ntfs.htm refers.

For a pro-admin'd network, I would agree with you - there, NTFS is an
essential component in a pro-managed soultion that extends from custom
user permissions control (which needs NTFS) to effective backup (which
mitigates against poor data recovery options).

In consumerland, the benefits are less clear-cut. Thanks to Bart PE,
it is now possible to formally manage malware about as easily on NTFS
as it is on FATxx, but the tools and documentation for data recovery,
manual file system repair etc. are still abysmal for NTFS.

Only if you so confident in your backups that you can consider the HD
contents as disposable, would NTFS be anything like a no-brainer.

Two years ago, possibly even one year ago, I was straddling the fence on the
NTFS vs FAT issue. Personally I have used NTFS since Windows 2000 came out
as most of my work is mostly with networks and my personal system includes
wireless networking I needed the security features. I have also had far less
problems with file and disk corruption but this is just personal anecdotal
evidence. As you say for most people FAT may have been better. With large
hard drives (> 137 GB) becoming very common and most systems having DVD
drives installed FAT is now almost useless for everyday work. I have a lot
of customers with Acer laptops which come formatted with 32 GB FAT32
partitions. For most of them I have had to change them to NTFS. Most people
prefer one large partition even when the benefits of multi partitions have
been explained but more cogently most of them have run into the 4 GB file
size limit. The laptops all have DVD burners and are used on site with
digital camcorders. This is just one example. With XP MCE and video in
general becoming more popular the 4 GB limit is the deciding factor.

Kerry
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

[/QUOTE]

(edited rather than bulk-trimmed to preserve meaning)
I have used NTFS since Windows 2000 came out as I needed the
security features. I have also had less problems with file and disk
corruption but this is just personal anecdotal evidence.

I'm wondering if that difference is to do with poor OS support for
FATxx, rather than anything inherent in the file systems.

MS'a approach to file system maintenance seems to assume that the
interruption of sane file system operations is the only thing that
ever goes wrong. Whether they are unaware of corruption from other
causes, or take a cynical "not our problem" approach to ignoring
these, is open to conjecture.

So let's look at those scenarios first.

When the system crashes or is reset while file operations are in
progress, the file data will be left in an indeterminate state.

Each non-empty file has three components:
- data within a cluster chain
- a directory entry that points to the cluster chain
- information enumerating the clusters in the chain
Implicit is a fourth item; tracking of free clusters, so as to exclude
those occupied by file data from use.

If you interrupt a file write in FATxx, there will usually be a
mismatch between length predicted by cluster chaining info, vs. stated
within the directory entry. Part or all of the file may be lost, when
automatic Scandisk detects this mismatch and "fixes" the file by
truncating it, or (if the dir entry is missing) recovering the cluster
chain as "lost" as a .CHK file in the volume's root directory.

If you interrupt a file write in NTFS, transaction logging causes the
incomplete new version to be irreversibly discarded.

So both file systems are capable of being repaired after a bad exit,
with broken data often being partially or completely lost in FATxx,
and always being completely lost in NTFS. Hmm.

Now let's look at file system structure detail and survivability.

In the case of FATxx, the tracking of free clusters and the chaining
of file data is done in the same place; a mirrored pair of tables of
cluster addresses called the File Allocation Tables. These are
contiguous data structures at the start of the volume, lying one after
the other, and both are updated as close to the same time as possible.

In the case of NTFS, there are no FATs. Instead (AFAIK) free clusters
are marked in a bitmap, which is like a miniture FAT except it needs 1
bit to store used/free status vs. 12, 16 or 32 bits to store the
address of the following cluster (or 0 if cluster is free). The
linkage of data clusters is stored elsewhere, within the file's
directory information (or more accurately, another per-file meta-data
file system structure), and is stored as a set of start, length
entries each defining a run of contiguous clusters (again, AFAIK).

Which of these is best suited to survive corruption? Which as shorter
critical windows during a file update process? Which has the greater
redundency to detect errors and provide fallback information to guide
repair? FATxx has duplicate FAT copies, but most NTFS files do not
have duplicate cluster chain info, AFAIK, and I don't know whether the
free space bitmap is one of the MFT entries for which a duplicate copy
of the metadata is kept.

Without duplication of core file system structural information, either
explicitly (e.g. dual FAT, mirrored crucial MFT entries) or by
deduction (e.g. cross-referencing directory file length with cluster
chaining information), data will be lost if random garbage overwrites
the file structure, and errors can't be detected.

FATxx is a simple, well-documented file system that stores all core
structures at the start of the volume. So if you need to recover data
via various putative structures, it's easy to backup and restore this
area of file system structure to try (and undo) these alternatives.

NTFS is complex, proprietary, and poorly documented, and it scatters
its structural data across the whole volume. Even if you had the
tools and know-how to try different putative file system structures,
you can't back up, swap and restore these because they permeate the
entire volume. So manual NTFS data recovery is near-impossible.

I mentioned "poor support for FATxx" in XP.

Firstly and most famously, XP cannot create a FAT32 volume over 32G.
Less obviously, the Properties, Tools, Check for errors facility does
not in fact do anything at all to check or fix FATxx file system
structure. I have verified this by running this test - it takes
almost no time, and reports no errors - and then doing a Scandisk from
DOS mode, that does find and manage errors.

ChkDsk, and possibly AutoChk, do seem to really test the file system
structure. But because these primitive DOS 5 era tools allow no user
control as they check the volume - you have to (dis)allow fixing
before they start, and have no veto power thereafter - I don't use
them for FATxx < 137G; instead, I manage FATxx from DOS mode, using
Scandisk. In NTFS I have to choice but to trust ChkDsk.

So if XP fails to actually maintain FATxx, then it's hardly a surprise
that mileage appears poorer than it does for NTFS.
With large hard drives (> 137 GB) becoming very common and most
systems having DVD drives installed FAT is now almost useless

There are two aspects on that; maximum per-file size that limits FATxx
usefullness when mastering DVDs or managing video etc., and efficiency
considerations when dealing with large volumes.

But perhaps you are assuming the use of one huge C: for the hard
drive, as MS (IMO, ill-advisedly) recommends. I'd say that is such a
bad idea that it overshadows FATxx vs. NTFS, i.e. one huge C: vs.
intelligent partitioning has more impact than FATxx vs. NTFS.

Once you don't set the whole HD as one big doomed C:, you can have
your cake and eat it - i.e. use both NTFS and FATxx to taste.

NTFS is better for massive volumes, for a number of reasons...

1) More compact chaining information

FATs contain a map of all cluster addresses in the volume, and as the
volume gets larger, these tables get bigger both because there are
more clusters to track, and because larger addresses require more
space to hold each entry. You can hedge this by incresing the size of
each cluster, but that can only do so much, and just moves the
inefficiency somewhere else (cluster slack space bloat vs. large file
system cluster address tables).

NTFS avoids this by not storing any table of addresses. Instead, a
far smaller table is used to store only the free/used status, and
clusterchaining info is held as start/length info for each run of
clusters 9the more fragmented the file, the more run etries). Storing
this run info nearer the rest of the file's metadata can reduce head
travel and thus shrink the critical window period needed to update the
file, but a lack of redundency increases vulnerability to corruption.

2) More efficient directory structure

FATxx directories are linear lists that have to be traversed from
start to end (or start to match), and that scales poorly for
directories containing thousands of files - especially when these have
additional entries to hold Long File Names.

NTFS directories are b-tree in structure (AFAIK), so it's faster to
traverse them to find entries; this is also why they are inherently
alpha-sorted. In addition, small files may be completely contained
within the metadata, with no data cluster chain at all.

....but large volumes have weaknesses, irrespective of file system;
they take longer to check for errors, defrag, image off as backups,
and more space is required to hold these image backups. At least with
FATxx, you can backup and restore the file system structure in a
reasonable amount of space while doing data recovery; large NTFS
volumes would be particularly disasterous in this context.

I use a 2G FAT16 (!) volume for crucial data, for the best
survivability possible. Files under 32k in size can be recovered
completely even if no FAT survives, the number of clusters is so low
its almost eyeball-manageable, and the entire volume can be peeled off
as one 2G image to be worked on elsewhere, if data is to be recovered
by the afflicted PC has to get back to work immediately.
Most people prefer one large partition even when the benefits of
multi partitions have been explained

MS prefers this, but not because it's best for data safety. Their
agenda is to reduce support calls, and when they pitched this as a
recommendation to us as system builders, it was a blatent case of
"this is easier for users and will give you less support calls"; no
attention was paid to data safety, as if this didn't matter.
The laptops all have DVD burners and are used on site with
digital camcorders. This is just one example. With XP MCE and video in
general becoming more popular the 4 GB limit is the deciding factor.

If you are dumb enough to go one-big-C:, then you take your lumps.
NTFS is less useless at that than FATxx, but both scenarios suck.


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
D

Data Recovery Expert

I assume there is some confusion...

It is "HALF Truth" of Partitioning and Clustering in FAT and MFT...

Partition size has much more than this to be taken care of.

See it on http://www.datadoctor.biz/author.htm

You'll find table of contents of "Data Recovery with & without
Programming" there. Click on "Chapter 3" heading...

It is available online...
Regards

T.T.
 

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