Pagefile.sys

D

DillyDally

I have two internal HDs. Using "control panel" (System) I have the paging
file set for the second HD ("S") with Windows managing the file size.
However, I happened to notice a 1.5gb "pagefile.sys" file sitting on the
first HD ("C").
Can I file be deleted or should I just set the paging file for the "C" drive ??
 
J

JS

If you set the pagefile to the second hard drive
and only the second hard drive yes you can delete
the pagefile located on the C: drive.

Note: When you try to delete the pagefile if
you get a message to the effect "Cannot delete pagefile:
Access is denied" then you have a split pagefile (C: & S:)
and both are in use.

Also most people will tell you that it's wise to have a small
pagefile on C: and the larger pagefile located on your second
drive.
 
D

DillyDally

If you set the pagefile to the second hard drive
and only the second hard drive yes you can delete
the pagefile located on the C: drive.

Note: When you try to delete the pagefile if
you get a message to the effect "Cannot delete pagefile:
Access is denied" then you have a split pagefile (C: & S:)
and both are in use.

Also most people will tell you that it's wise to have a small
pagefile on C: and the larger pagefile located on your second
drive.


Thanks for your response. Supposedly, there is No pagefile on "C"
according to the settings I have. However, the invisible file is taking up a
gig and a half of my hard drive.
What would be a reasonable size for the files on "C" and "S" ??
 
T

Twayne

I have two internal HDs. Using "control panel"
(System)
I have the paging
file set for the second HD ("S") with Windows
managing
the file size.
However, I happened to notice a 1.5gb
"pagefile.sys" file
sitting on the
first HD ("C").
Can I file be deleted or should I just set the
paging
file for the "C" drive ??

If you are doing anything that's memory intensive,
it will provide some speed improvement to have the
pagefile on the other drive. Usually that will be
things like video edit/rendering, serious number
crunching programs, editing anything larger than
your available memory. A "normal" every day user
with MS Office or OO.o and antivirus, no realy
specialty apps won't really find much improvement
in speed. In fact, it's really only the hugest of
applications/files where you would notice any
difference.
So, it's pretty much up to you. It won't hurt,
might or might not help noticeably. Depending on
how much RAM you have, the pagefile might not even
get used. A gig or more of RAM usually sets one
up to not use the pagefile; like I said, it
depends on what you do.

The pagefile in C can be deleted. BUT, without
it, there are some debug/informational things that
can only go to a pafefile on C, so it's best to
leave a small pagefile on C of about 200 Meg or
so. I have mine set to 250 Meg. You just set the
min/max to the same figure, or you could use 0 to
200 Meg, as you prefer.

I noticed a link provided for setting up the
pagefile where it recommends setting the min/max
of the pagefile on the second drive. I and many
others disagree with that because predicting the
actual max that could be needed is NOT the same as
the amount of RAM you have; it depends on several
other things. IMO it is much better to use the
Let Windows Manage the pagefile there. That
article is kind of strange although it's from a
good source. I have mine set to system managed
size. That way if I don't need the pagefile
(which is most of the time), it's taking very
little space on the drive. But if I need
something huge inthe pagefile, windows can expand
it as far as it needs to go. I have a Gig of RAM
and I've seen the pagefile stretch to 2.1 Gig
during some of my video renders where it has to
maintain several very large buffers of data all at
once.
The usual excuse to want to set min/max for a
pagefile is to prevent it from becoming
fragmented. A few fragments to the pagefile
though won't hurt a thing and wont' slow anything
down noticeably. If it does fragment, it's easy
enough to fix it up when disk maintenance time
rolls around:
Set it small, Restart, defrag the drive, and
then put it back where it was and it'll be all set
to go again. Most defraggers can not defrag a
pagefile and a few other types too, so occasional
maintenance might be required. I seldom see more
than 2 to 5 fragments to the pagefile though; the
system knows to stay away from it when it can.
Maintenance is only needed about every three
months when I'm doing some serious work.
Otherwise it never gets used.

That's my 2 ¢ anyway. There's lots of different
opinions on the subject.

Twayne
 
V

VanguardLH

DillyDally said:
I have two internal HDs. Using "control panel" (System) I have the paging
file set for the second HD ("S") with Windows managing the file size.
However, I happened to notice a 1.5gb "pagefile.sys" file sitting on the
first HD ("C").
Can I file be deleted or should I just set the paging file for the "C" drive ??

There must always be a pagefile in the same partition as from where
Windows was loaded. This is to ensure there is a pagefile for Windows
to use. What would happen if you unpowered the 2nd hard disk? What
would happen if you unmounted the 2nd hard disk? What would happen if
you replaced the 2nd hard disk? There would be no pagefile (and Windows
requires one).

Using "system managed" sizing for the pagefile will lead to its
fragmentation. Set the min and max size to the same value, like double
your RAM size. Reboot. Then use SysInternals' PageDefrag to defragment
the pagefile and other system files, like the registry. This requires a
reboot since the defrag must be done at an early stage of Windows load.
Thereafter your pagefile remains defragmented. Define the SAME min=max
size on both drives (on different hard disks). Windows will show
preference in using the pagefile in the non-Windows partition; however,
if that non-Windows partition becomes unavailable, you will still have
the recommended pagefile size in the Windows partition.

Personally I don't always set max pagefile space to 1.5 or 2.0 times the
size of RAM. After 2GB of RAM, I just set the virtual memory to the
same size as the RAM. So with 2GB of RAM, I set the pagefile to 2GB.
If I'm using other drives (which must be partitions on different hard
disks) to include pagefile space, I would set it to 2GB on the 2nd drive
and also 2GB on the first drive (for Windows). Although that looks to
double the size of the pagefile space, Windows will use the 2nd drive's
pagefile first (except for some system processes in the 1st pagefile).

Some folks use a smaller pagefile in the Windows partition since Windows
will prefer to use the pagefile in the non-Windows partition. However,
I'd rather not have to think about doing any virtual memory
reconfiguration at some later time if the 2nd hard disk gets replaced or
during some testing when, say, the controller for that 2nd drive must be
disabled in the BIOS, or for whatever reason the 2nd hard disk
disappears. Logically you can make the Windows partition pagefile
smaller and rely on the larger non-Windows partition pagefile. I just
keep it simple and make the pagefile the same size (and with min=max) in
both partitions.

If using multiple pagefiles, they must be in different partitions on
different hard disks. The point of the alternate pagefile location is
to alleviate file access on the same hard disk for paging and system
file access. That's good except if both hard disks are on the same
controller. Reads can only be addressed to one device on the controller
at a time. Some overlap is achieved between read and writes (i.e.,
during a write, a read can take place). So you might also want to
ensure the 2nd hard disk is on a different controller (i.e., not on the
same cable as the 1st hard disk). Separate pagefiles in different
partitions reduces file access conflicts through the operating system's
file system. Further that by eliminating hardware-level access
conflicts between the 2 disks by having the disks on different
controllers.

System managed, or with min and max not being the same value, means that
the max value is a reserved value. That space is not used until needed.
But when it is needed, there may be other files in the way so the
pagefile cannot grow into contiguous sectors hence it gets fragmented.

The larger you make the pagefile, the more likely that there isn't
enough contiguous free space to provide for a single fragment pagefile
(i.e., you may not get the pagefile defragmented). So don't make it
overly large. It is, after all, a reserve for when you run out of real
or physical memory which is far faster. If you are having to increase
your pagefile to accomodate some pig of a program that wants a lot more
memory than you have for physical RAM then it's time to get more
physical RAM installed in your host.

While there have been many articles arguing that using a 2nd pagefile
(in a non-Windows partition on a different hard disk) will speed up the
OS due to reduction in file system conflicts, I've yet to see anyone
giving cold statistics to prove the same. There is also a registry hack
to keep the Exec for Windows loaded more in real memory (i.e., not allow
it to page out to the slower virtual memory or pagefile) and yet I've
read some technical articles that shows it offers no speedup. After
all, it is no uncommon to see a mix of different brand of hard disks
within the same host, or a mix of IDE and SATA disks. You could be
putting the 2nd pagefile on a slower hard disk which would obviate the
professed speedup of reducing the file system conflicts for the pagefile
in the same partition as Windows. That is, you try to speed up Windows
with a 2nd pagefile on a different hard disk to reduce file system
conflicts but that other disk might be the slower device.

If you have plenty of real RAM, don't concern yourself as to where is
the pagefile. Real RAM is always better than pagefile space no matter
where is that pagefile space (and even if you put it on a flash drive
because flash memory is far slow than system memory, plus it can die
catstrophically and you lose all pending data changes that were in the
pagefile).
 
D

dennis

VanguardLH said:
There must always be a pagefile in the same partition as from where
Windows was loaded. This is to ensure there is a pagefile for Windows
to use. What would happen if you unpowered the 2nd hard disk? What
would happen if you unmounted the 2nd hard disk? What would happen if
you replaced the 2nd hard disk? There would be no pagefile (and Windows
requires one).

It is not really a requirement until one runs out of physical memory.
 
V

VanguardLH

dennis said:
It is not really a requirement until one runs out of physical memory.

Some of Windows' exec is always paged out to virtual memory. There are
some programs that ask for a minimal working set for memory but also ask
for gobs of max memory (hundreds of megabytes), so luckily they get
pushed into the pagefile. Even if you set the pagefile to zero for the
Windows partition, on startup Windows will create a 20MB temporary
pagefile named temppf.sys in the %systemroot%\system32 folder. A
pagefile is ALWAYS required by Windows.

I have 2GB physical memory. Typically the peak usage doesn't go over
1.2GB so I have free physical memory. However, I don't do video or
graphics editing or run high-precision statistics programs. I find it
hard to press against the 2GB real RAM boundary without also causing an
undue lag in responsiveness of my host. Free memory is unused memory so
it is wasted memory, but unused free memory is better than not having
enough memory.

Once a user finds they really need to enlarge the pagefile, the best
recommendation is for them to get more memory up to the max that the OS
can handle. If that's still not enough, get another version of Windows
or a different OS that can handle more physical RAM and then get more
physical RAM. Virtual memory is an excuse for not having enough real
memory, and a poor choice as an alternative for real memory.
 
D

dennis

VanguardLH said:
Some of Windows' exec is always paged out to virtual memory. There are
some programs that ask for a minimal working set for memory but also ask
for gobs of max memory (hundreds of megabytes), so luckily they get
pushed into the pagefile. Even if you set the pagefile to zero for the
Windows partition, on startup Windows will create a 20MB temporary
pagefile named temppf.sys in the %systemroot%\system32 folder. A
pagefile is ALWAYS required by Windows.


I don't know where you have gotten this information from, but it is not
true. A paging file is NOT required by Windows to operate.
 
V

VanguardLH

dennis said:
I don't know where you have gotten this information from, but it is not
true. A paging file is NOT required by Windows to operate.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/101773
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/257758/
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/99768
22MB is the minimum size. This has proliferated into each version
hence.

Setting to no pagefile using the config UI still creates an on-the-fly
temporary pagfile on Windows startup. Yes, setting to zero for min and
max size results in no \pagefile.sys file. That's not the temppf.sys
used in its absence.

So don't believe me. Go read articles by others. Google still works:

http://www.google.com/search?q="temppf.sys"
 
D

dennis

VanguardLH said:

Let me quote:

"When you set the paging file (Pagefile.sys) on your computer to a size
that is lower than the recommended size of 12 megabytes (MB) plus the
amount of random access memory (RAM), a temporary paging file
(Temppf.sys) *may* be created"

"Windows NT creates only one temporary file, TEMPPF.SYS. This is a
temporary paging file created at boot time *whenever the system detects
that the current paging file configuration is not sufficient and might
prevent you from correcting the deficiency.*"

This means: if Windows thinks there is not enough physical ram to
operate, it will create a small temporary paging file. It does NOT mean
it cannot live without one.
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

dennis said:
Let me quote:

"When you set the paging file (Pagefile.sys) on your computer to a size
that is lower than the recommended size of 12 megabytes (MB) plus the
amount of random access memory (RAM), a temporary paging file (Temppf.sys)
*may* be created"

"Windows NT creates only one temporary file, TEMPPF.SYS. This is a
temporary paging file created at boot time *whenever the system detects
that the current paging file configuration is not sufficient and might
prevent you from correcting the deficiency.*"

This means: if Windows thinks there is not enough physical ram to operate,
it will create a small temporary paging file. It does NOT mean it cannot
live without one.


What is it the problem that Windows computer users have with the pagefile?

Unix, Linux, MacOS and Solaris use a pagefile, so why not Windows?

Setting the pagefile to zero in order to force the system to use RAM for the
same function only increases speed in the mind of the user..
 
D

dennis

Mike said:
What is it the problem that Windows computer users have with the pagefile?

There is no problem. Someone claimed that Windows requires a paging file
and cannot operate without regardless of how much ram is installed. This
is not true, so here is the discussion ...
 
D

Daave

dennis said:
Let me quote:

"When you set the paging file (Pagefile.sys) on your computer to a
size that is lower than the recommended size of 12 megabytes (MB) plus
the amount of random access memory (RAM), a temporary paging file
(Temppf.sys) *may* be created"

"Windows NT creates only one temporary file, TEMPPF.SYS. This is a
temporary paging file created at boot time *whenever the system
detects that the current paging file configuration is not sufficient
and might prevent you from correcting the deficiency.*"

This means: if Windows thinks there is not enough physical ram to
operate, it will create a small temporary paging file. It does NOT
mean it cannot live without one.

I believe you are confusing temppf.sys with pagefile.sys. Read this
article:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555223

Excerpt:

In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and
many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory
addresses which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by
the hardware. Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass
this address translation and use real memory addresses directly.

Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all
running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the
system.

An expanded version of this article is available at
http://members.shaw.ca/bsanders/WindowsGeneralWeb/RAMVirtualMemoryPageFileEtc.htm.
 
D

dennis

Daave said:
I believe you are confusing temppf.sys with pagefile.sys. Read this
article:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555223

Excerpt:

In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and
many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory
addresses which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by
the hardware. Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass
this address translation and use real memory addresses directly.

Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all
running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the
system.


Virtual memory and the paging file is two very different things.
 
T

Twayne

dennis said:
Some of Windows' exec is always paged out to
virtual
memory. There are some programs that ask for a
minimal
working set for memory but also ask for gobs of
max
memory (hundreds of megabytes), so luckily they
get
pushed into the pagefile. Even if you set the
pagefile
to zero for the Windows partition, on startup
Windows
will create a 20MB temporary pagefile named
temppf.sys in
the %systemroot%\system32 folder. A pagefile is
ALWAYS
required by Windows.

I have 2GB physical memory. Typically the peak
usage
doesn't go over
1.2GB so I have free physical memory. However,
I don't
do video or graphics editing or run
high-precision
statistics programs. I find it hard to press
against the
2GB real RAM boundary without also causing an
undue lag
in responsiveness of my host. Free memory is
unused
memory so it is wasted memory, but unused free
memory is
better than not having enough memory.

Once a user finds they really need to enlarge
the
pagefile, the best recommendation is for them to
get more
memory up to the max that the OS can handle. If
that's
still not enough, get another version of Windows
or a
different OS that can handle more physical RAM
and then
get more physical RAM. Virtual memory is an
excuse for
not having enough real memory, and a poor choice
as an
alternative for real memory.

IMO your inflexible comments on the way to use
things are better aimed at professionals where
such thnigs might matter in some way for but
newbies and the inexperienced, it's a much simpler
and more lax case where the nuances aren't
necessary nor do they add to the requested
assistance. Your assistance might be a lot more
appreciated on professional groups where greater
background details going well beyond the OP's
question are more the norm.
Also, if you'd like to carry on a side
conversation that appears to be going off topic
quickly, you may wish to start your own thread
rather than hijack this one.

Twayne
 
T

Twayne

VanguardLH said:
I don't know where you have gotten this
information from,
but it is not true. A paging file is NOT
required by
Windows to operate.

Actually, if there is no pagefile but one is
needed, Windows XP will create one anyway and
interrupt the user with the notices about what
it's doing, rather than allow the system to crash.
VG is also right about the temppf.sys although I'm
not sure of the name myself it looks right. If
and as soon as that's used up, you get the typical
error about the pagefile beign too small.
It's easy to check out if you wish to play with
it; it won't damage anything on your machine or,
at least, it didn't mine. But I do things like
that on a sandbox, not a production machine. And
of course ymmv always applies<g>.

Regards,

Twayne
 
D

dennis

Twayne said:
IMO your inflexible comments on the way to use
things are better aimed at professionals where
such thnigs might matter in some way for but
newbies and the inexperienced, it's a much simpler
and more lax case where the nuances aren't
necessary nor do they add to the requested
assistance. Your assistance might be a lot more
appreciated on professional groups where greater
background details going well beyond the OP's
question are more the norm.
Also, if you'd like to carry on a side
conversation that appears to be going off topic
quickly, you may wish to start your own thread
rather than hijack this one.

Twayne

Don't tell me to bugger of like that, when you don't understand the subject.

Now the claim is: programs always reference virtual memory, and thus you
always need a paging file.

This is so not true as it can get. So I am not allowed to comment?
 
T

Twayne

Bottom Post to VanG

Those links:
-- Are not stated applicable to XP but to
specific, server-related machines in each and
every instance.
Since this is an XP group, and if the date of
any references is later than XP's existance, it
would indicate XP were it applicable to XP Home or
Pro. Although it's often the case, these are not
cases where you say it can be applied to XP also
by development relationship. It's just not so.
In case you weren't aware, this is an *xp*
newsgroup.
APPLIES TO
a.. Microsoft Windows NT Advanced Server 3.1
b.. Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 3.1

APPLIES TO
a.. Microsoft Windows 2000 Server
b.. Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server
c.. Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Edition
d.. Microsoft Windows 2000 Datacenter Server
e.. Microsoft Windows NT Server 3.5
f.. Microsoft Windows NT Server 3.51
g.. Microsoft Windows NT Server 4.0 Standard
Edition
h.. Microsoft Windows NT Advanced Server 3.1
i.. Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 3.5
j.. Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 3.51
k.. Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 4.0
Developer Edition
l.. Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 3.1
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/99768
22MB is the minimum size. This has proliferated
into
each version hence.
APPLIES TO
a.. Microsoft Windows NT Advanced Server 3.1
b.. Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 3.1
Setting to no pagefile using the config UI still
creates
an on-the-fly temporary pagfile on Windows
startup. Yes,
setting to zero for min and max size results in
no
\pagefile.sys file. That's not the temppf.sys
used in
its absence.

So don't believe me. Go read articles by
others. Google
still works:

http://www.google.com/search?q="temppf.sys"

Here are some much more applicable (and useful)
links about XP & pagefile:
http://www.petri.co.il/pagefile_optimization.htm
http://www.theeldergeek.com/paging_file.htm
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308417
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,1679934,00.asp
http://www.aumha.org/win5/a/xpvm.php

I'm quite aware they say some of the same things
your links said, but these are specific to XP and
are not the same as your links. Your link in
effect provide some misinformation w/r to XP's
pagefile and overall system by vitrue of being
server macine related.
They also address things like why there is so
little free RAM which goes against your statement
of having a lot of "unused RAM". *Free RAM is
Wasted RAM*, in fact. Several other things are
straightened out in those links I gave.

Regards,

Twayne
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top