OEM VS. RETAIL FULL VERSION

K

kurttrail

wojo said:
Actually in reading the posts you seem to want to rewrite the rules.
your right MS has a monopoly right or wrong it's because they have
the best product in my book.

How would you know? Have you tried something else?
53 Billion earned by selling a good product that the majority wants.

While whining how much they are being ripped-off by their paying customers.
My concern is posts that more or less state that if an OEM's EULA
says it can only be installed on one computer and not be moved to
another (and no I'm not going to waste time copy and pasting a EULA
quote here, just summarizing) then you've said screw that I'll do it
anyway becasue I can.

Because I can under, and in compliance with, the law, not what MS thinks it
can get away with, backed up by nothing more than FUD. SHOULD IBM GIVE IN
TO SCO JUST BECAUSE THEY CLAIM IBM DID SOMETHING WRONG?!
Their retail EULA says only on 1 computer at a
time, as is the case with ALL copyrighted software, but you say don't
worry about it there are KeyGen's available to allow you to install
it so just do it.

Well, you're wrong there are plenty of copyrighted programs that doesn't
limit installation to one computer, and most that do, are members of the BSA
Trust of corporate copyright owners.
My only beef with you is that you tell people that copyright doesn't
matter because YOU don't feel it's right or justified.

LOL! You gonna have to quote me on that one! I'm the one that advocates
COPYRIGHT LAW here!
Do you think
maybe the cost of MS software would be more reasonable if there
weren't so many people out there bypassing EULA and Copyright's just
because they can?

NOPE!

"Over time, reduced piracy means that the software industry can invest more
in product development, quality and support. This ensures better products
and more innovation for customers. Ultimately, customers will benefit from
the economic impact of reduced piracy through increased job opportunities
and higher wages." - http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/activation/

Microsoft never says a thing about lower prices due to less piracy.

http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/

http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/northamerica/us.phtml

Since 1994 software piracy HAS declined, even according to the obviously
biased estimates of the BSA, who gets it's statistics from their members,
like MS. Have you noticed a decline in software prices since 1994?
Don't waste your time responding, I'm done with the subject.

ROFL! Another chickensh*t MicroSychophant!
Although
I imagine others that feel the same way I do, there's always others
telling you the same thing I am telling you, will probably continue
unless everybody else has given up on you as well.

LOL! Whatever!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
K

kurttrail

wojo said:
Except that if it wasn't for the bootlegs and people putting Win 98
on ten computers I still contend that the price wouldn't be so high.

BS! As I have already shown, even by the software industries own numbers
software piracy has dropped, yet MS monopolistic pricing remains intact.
But maybe your right maybe they prie it that way simply because they
can. That still doesn't change the fact that THEY created a product
that everybody wants and it is copyrighted.

LOL! When you buy from a major OEM their ain't much choice. If you want to
use the software that you've bought over the years, you don't have much
choice. MS isn't a convicted predatory monopoly because it ain't one, you
know.
To say it's pathetic or
greedy for them to require you to only use it on one computer is like
saying authors shouldn't complain about plagiarism.

That would be covered under Copyright law, not an anonyous, post-purchase
"shrink-wrap license." Your TV came with a "shrink-wrap license" too, so do
you think you own your TV, or is the TV manufacturer only licensing you the
use of their TV?
Think about it this way:
If everybody used bootleg copies of Windows or any other software for
that matter.

Why? Did anybody say anything about using "bootleg copies?" We're talking
about using a copy of software that was legally sold!
Or bought one copy and installed it on all their
computers and all their friends computers etc..

Again why? Who said anything about engaging in software piracy by sharing
software with others?

LOL!
then the company that
creates the software gets basically nothing for their efforts and
hence have no incentive to create a new better program.

Certainly hasn't stopped MS from launching their new and improve software.
The problem is convincing people to upgrade to new products that really
aren't all that improved.
There is a
reason you can't find much good shareware around and if you do it's
demo or only partially functional. If you give people the opportunity
to get it for free they will so why create it in the first place?

Ask Linus Torvalds that one.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Greetings --

Using the allegedly high price of _any_ commodity as an excuse or
justification for the theft of that product is the last refuge of the
morally weak and pathetic. If you cannot afford a luxury item (a term
that applies equally well to computers, software, music CDs, and
cigarettes), and you have _any_ integrity whatsoever, you go without
until such time as you can afford the desired item(s). Do you steal a
Porsche because you prefer it to a Ford, but can't afford the price?
I guess you would, judging by your reasoning.

Oh, and lowering prices wouldn't eliminate piracy. It would only
reduce the software/music pirates' profit margin, requiring them to
produce more to meet their goals. Criminals aren't going to suddenly
turn honest just because the product their stealing is less
profitable; they'll simply steal more to make up the difference.

And Microsoft does _not_ have a monopoly. Feel free the use
Linux, Unix. FreeBSD, MacOS, or any of the many other operating
systems available. Do not mistake market dominance for a true
monopoly -- Microsoft's the biggest for the simple reasons that an
overwhelming majority of consumers have either "voted with their
wallets," or are too lazy to bother trying to learn anything else.

Economics 101: Any business has a right to charge "all the market
will bear" for its products or services. If people don't believe that
they're receiving fair value for the price being asked, all they have
to do is buy something else. It's as simple as that.


Bruce Chambers

--
Help us help you:




You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH
 
W

wojo

kurttrail said:
How would you know? Have you tried something else?
** YES. MSDOS, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.1, Mac OS, Windows 95, Windows 98,
Linux, Windows 98SE, Windows XP, and even Dr. DOS just for kicks.
While whining how much they are being ripped-off by their paying
customers.
More like their NON-Paying Customers.
Because I can under, and in compliance with, the law, not what MS thinks
it
can get away with, backed up by nothing more than FUD. SHOULD IBM GIVE IN
TO SCO JUST BECAUSE THEY CLAIM IBM DID SOMETHING WRONG?!


Well, you're wrong there are plenty of copyrighted programs that doesn't
limit installation to one computer, and most that do, are members of the
BSA
Trust of corporate copyright owners.
Plenty? No there are some, but the software that is worthwhile are
copyrighted to be "only on one comuter at a time"
LOL! You gonna have to quote me on that one! I'm the one that advocates
COPYRIGHT LAW here!
Quote you on that? How many times have you posted comments about using
Keygen's etc.. to get around XP activation? That's Advocating Copyright law?
NOPE!

"Over time, reduced piracy means that the software industry can invest
more
in product development, quality and support. This ensures better products
and more innovation for customers. Ultimately, customers will benefit from
the economic impact of reduced piracy through increased job opportunities
and higher wages." - http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/activation/

Microsoft never says a thing about lower prices due to less piracy.

http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/

http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/northamerica/us.phtml

Since 1994 software piracy HAS declined, even according to the obviously
biased estimates of the BSA, who gets it's statistics from their members,
like MS. Have you noticed a decline in software prices since 1994?


ROFL! Another chickensh*t MicroSychophant!
Not Chickensh*t, just tired of wasting my time with you. I'm thinking that
the reason Bruce is the only one who has jumped in this thread is because
everybody else has already grown tired of reading your posts and don't
bother to argue with you anymore. I know I've read many posts similar to
mine talking against the kind of crap you try to push but now it's gotten
old.
LOL! Whatever!
Well thought out response.
Look Kurttrail you seem like a well educated person I am just very much
opposed to your outlook on the subject. It's a free country hence your
entitled to your opinion but as such I am also entitled to disagree with you
and to tell other people WHY some of these things are wrong.
 
L

losedows

-----Original Message-----


How would you know? Have you tried something else?
majority wants.

While whining how much they are being ripped-off by their paying customers.


Because I can under, and in compliance with, the law, not what MS thinks it
can get away with, backed up by nothing more than FUD. SHOULD IBM GIVE IN
TO SCO JUST BECAUSE THEY CLAIM IBM DID SOMETHING WRONG?!


Well, you're wrong there are plenty of copyrighted programs that doesn't
limit installation to one computer, and most that do, are members of the BSA
Trust of corporate copyright owners.


LOL! You gonna have to quote me on that one! I'm the one that advocates
COPYRIGHT LAW here!


NOPE!

"Over time, reduced piracy means that the software industry can invest more
in product development, quality and support. This ensures better products
and more innovation for customers. Ultimately, customers will benefit from
the economic impact of reduced piracy through increased job opportunities
and higher wages." - http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/activation/

Microsoft never says a thing about lower prices due to less piracy.

http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/

http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/northamerica/us.phtml

Since 1994 software piracy HAS declined, even according to the obviously
biased estimates of the BSA, who gets it's statistics from their members,
like MS. Have you noticed a decline in software prices since 1994?
subject.

ROFL! Another chickensh*t MicroSychophant!


LOL! Whatever!


--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"

Here is a poem I would like to share on the subject:

Billy Boy Won't Get My Coin
===========================

Microsoft and Billy Boy
Keep on selling us their toys:
Windoze, MessyDos and Word,
Excel, Office and that Works...
Did I say it really works?
Sure, it may work great for Bill,
Stacking money on the hill,
Being on the top until
Someone other climbs the hill.
So the bottom line is: nil!

People from United States,
Why do you support Bill Gates?
Don't you think Win Ninety-five
Will enslave you for a life?

Please don't let Monsieur Bill Gates
And his user interface
Move you in the wrong direction --
Windows General Protection
Faults will torture you forever,
And especially whenever
You're about to save your work!
Did we came up to the fork?

And the fork is this: you may
Either stick to Billy Gates,
Or just go another way --
Save your trouble, don't you pay
So much money, don't you stay
On the bandwagon with Bill!
Join the GNU Project! It will
Change your mind and point of view.
Richard Stalman and his crew,
Linus Torvalds and his Linux
Point the way to go between us.

Grab the Linux and enjoy!
(It's a Unix, not a toy!)
And forget that Billy Boy!

____________________________________
Copyright (c) MXMV Luchezar Georgiev
(Lucho) 8.III.1995, Varna, Bulgaria
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Greetings --

Don't waste you time trying to carry on a rational discussion with
Kurttrail; he's made up his mind long ago not to be influenced by the
facts. He doesn't even seem to realize that the very court decisions
and laws that he so frequently quotes completely undermine his own
arguments.

Many of us have tried to point out Kurt's reading comprehension
problems, but it became clear quite some time ago that he's not really
interested in anything besides mindlessly slamming Microsoft (all the
while hypocritically ignoring other software manufacturers who have
similar licensing and business practices). So I, at least, keep him
in the kill-file and see his posts only when someone else replies to
him. I do occasionally enter the discussion when it seems appropriate
or necessary to point out the fallacies of his "reasoning" to others
reading the thread.

Didn't you notice how he inevitably resorts to name-calling when
he finally realizes that he isn't going to get another convert to the
"Kurttrail's Kopyright Kult?"


Bruce Chambers

--
Help us help you:




You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH
 
W

wojo

Thanks Bruce, I've already made that detirmination as well.
You guys all had your chane, I've read a lot of the posts, I just wanted to
take my swings too :)
Yeah I noticed the name calling. Sticks and stones and all that jazz.
Thanks Bruce.
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

So, theft is justified if someone believes the price is to high?
Is there a standard at all?
Or do you steal something just because you feel it costs to much.

Theft is theft.
Thieves steal.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


I feel the same way about software as I do
music CDs. If the price were low
 
M

myself

Oh, and lowering prices wouldn't eliminate piracy. <snip>

Neither will eliminating piracy lower prices. Prices are set by what the market
will bear. Eliminating piracy doesn't affect what consumers will pay. If MS
won't lower their prices with $52 billion in the bank (not to mention the tens
of billions more that Gates' and Balmer have reaped from Windows
consumers), what makes anyone think they would if they eliminated piracy?

Same thing goes for the RIAA and music, and the MPAA and movies.
And Microsoft does _not_ have a monopoly.

You don't have to have 100% of the market to be a monopolist. Monopoly is about
having enough control of the market to quash free-market competition. The exact
share varies with the market but 90% is usually considered sufficient to
qualify as a monopoly. The Supreme Court and several state courts in
class-action lawsuits have already labeled MS a "monopoly".

It's not necessarily illegal to be a monopoly - that depends on how a company
got there and how they use or abuse the power it gives them over their
competitors - but legal or not, a monopoly is still a monopoly.
Feel free the use Linux, Unix. FreeBSD, MacOS, or any of the many other
operating systems available.

Are you asserting that the average consumer would find Linux, Unix, or FreeBSD
a viable alternative to Windows? And since they are forced to pay for Windows
anyway to get a name-brand computer at a reputable computer store (Best Buy,
CompUSA, Circuit City), why would they install a different OS?

As for MacOS, Apple's operating systems run only on their own proprietary and
relatively expensive hardware. It's not a realistic option for someone who can
needs more hardware bang for their buck, or who already has a large investment
in Intel hardware.
Do not mistake market dominance for a true monopoly -- Microsoft's the
biggest for the simple reasons that an overwhelming majority of consumers
have either "voted with their wallets," or are too lazy to bother trying to
learn anything else.

Microsoft bought Wendin DOS and took it off the market. They launched a massive
FUD campaign against DR-DOS, rigged the Windows 3.something installer to crash
under DR-DOS and made it look like DR-DOS's fault, and then bundled MS-DOS with
Windows the same way they bundled IE to kill Netscape and more recently bundled
WMA to kill RealPlayer (see the recent EU decision).

As revealed during the antitrust trial, they used secretive and exclusionary
OEM licenses to punish OEM's who carried other OS's like OS/2 and BeOS and to
reward those who shunned those competing OS's. BeOS claims that they didn't
even know *WHY* OEMS were refusing to bundle their product - refused even to
bundle BeOS when they became desperate and tried to give it away just for the
name recognition - because those OEMS were under NDA not to tell them *why*
they were being turned down.

Which leads to the we-can-only-suspect department: Linux has slightly more
desktop share now than Apple, yet the same major computer chains that have a
whole corner devoted to Apple machines don't carry even one single Linux or
Windows-free bare system on their shelves. If you want to go to CompUSA, Best
Buy, or Circuit City and buy a Sony, Toshiba, Hewlett Packard, or any other
brand of Intel machine then you HAVE to pay for Windows whether you want it or
not.

It's no wonder that consumers have voted for MS "with their wallets".
Economics 101: Any business has a right to charge "all the market will bear"
for its products or services. If people don't believe that they're receiving
fair value for the price being asked, all they have to do is buy something
else. It's as simple as that.

More Economics 101: In a free market, competition causes prices to approach the
costs of manufacturing and distribution. Huge sustained profit margins like
Microsoft's are possible only in the prolonged shortage of a commodity (doesn't
happen with readily mass-produced software) or in the presence of a monopoly.

It's notable that the competition that finally did arise could do so only by
bypassing the free market. Open-source software is, by-and-large, written to
satisfy some personal need - and most of us would *much* rather pay $300 for a
commercial program than spend every weekend for the next few years writing it.
The intense long-term effort by the estimated 600,000 developers who brought us
the Linux kernel and over 10,000 open-source applications to run on it would
not have happened if a free market for operating systems had truly existed.
 
A

Alias

So, theft is justified if someone believes the price is to high?

I did not try to "justify" stealing.
Is there a standard at all?

Irrevelant and a straw man argument.
Or do you steal something just because you feel it costs to much.

No, it gives *rise* to stealing/pirating/copyright infringement, etc because
there's money to be made between the cost of a cd and the price MS/Adobe,
etc. charge for it. Simple math and basic economics. I stated no personal
opinon about whether stealing is "right" or "wrong".
Theft is theft.

Of course it is and the sky's blue sometimes too, so what?
Thieves steal.

Yes, they do and hookers turn tricks and it still does not negate my point
or do you think that the black market will go away because you're a "moral
person"?

Alias
 
J

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

Well I will state my opinion on stealing.
It is WRONG.

Whether the black market will continue to exist or not is not relevant
since stealing is wrong in either case.
I do not justify what I do based on the illegal activity of others,
you may, but not me.

Since you have no opinion on stealing, the understanding of your other
statements is getting clear.
 
A

Alias

Jupiter Jones said:
Well I will state my opinion on stealing.
It is WRONG.

I agree.
Whether the black market will continue to exist or not is not relevant
since stealing is wrong in either case.

You are changing the subject to the moral issue. I was merely commenting on
*reality*.
I do not justify what I do based on the illegal activity of others,
you may, but not me.

Nor do I.
Since you have no opinion on stealing, the understanding of your other
statements is getting clear.

I think stealing is wrong, whether it be by the black marketeers or
Microsoft. My point had nothing to do with the morality or the right or
wrong of stealing but that the high prices of CDs, software and cigarettes
bring rise to the black market sales.

George Michael is offering his latest album for free to download off the
Internet. Do you think many people will buy a bootleg copy of that album
when they can get it free from the Internet?

Alias
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Greetings --

myself said:
Neither will eliminating piracy lower prices. Prices are set by what
the market
will bear. Eliminating piracy doesn't affect what consumers will
pay. If MS
won't lower their prices with $52 billion in the bank (not to
mention the tens
of billions more that Gates' and Balmer have reaped from Windows
consumers), what makes anyone think they would if they eliminated
piracy?
I don't believe I made any such claim. After all, everytime
there's a flare-up of violence in the Middle East, oil and gasoline
prices skyrocket. Do those prices ever drop to their original level
once the panic subsides? Nope. It's in the nature of any business to
be greedy. I'm not saying it's right, but that is the way it is.
You don't have to have 100% of the market to be a monopolist.
Monopoly is about
having enough control of the market to quash free-market
competition. The exact
share varies with the market but 90% is usually considered
sufficient to
qualify as a monopoly. The Supreme Court and several state courts in
class-action lawsuits have already labeled MS a "monopoly".
A decision that was mostly overturned as soon as the next higher
court got ahold of it. But I've never claimed that Microsoft was an
"angel." They play hard-ball in the business world, and will push the
limits whenever they think it's to their advantage. As will any other
large corporation.
Are you asserting that the average consumer would find Linux, Unix,
or FreeBSD
a viable alternative to Windows? And since they are forced to pay
for Windows
anyway to get a name-brand computer at a reputable computer store
(Best Buy,
CompUSA, Circuit City), why would they install a different OS?

If the "average consumer" weren't too intectually lazy and didn't
expect his/her PC to be no more complicated than a toaster oven, all
of these alternative OS's would be perfectly viable. It's not as if
using a computer were rocket surgery.

And do you really consider Best Buy, CompUSA, and Circuit City --
arguably the three very worst places in the world to buy anything
related to computers -- as "reputable computer stores?" You've really
hurt your position there.
As for MacOS, Apple's operating systems run only on their own
proprietary and
relatively expensive hardware. It's not a realistic option for
someone who can
needs more hardware bang for their buck, or who already has a large
investment
in Intel hardware.

Yes, Apple is continually reliving Sony's BetaMax mistake. The
company has no one to blame but itself for its miniscule market share.


Bruce Chambers

--
Help us help you:




You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH
 
W

wojo

Actually the piracy to price comment was mine but what I meant, even though
I didn't state it properly, was that I believe the prices wouldn't be as
high as they are if not for piracy and bootlegs. I do not expect the prices
to go down if the piracy goes down. That has already been proven to not be
the case since piracy is down.
Oh by the way Bruce, I'm on your side and agree with your comments about
Best Buy and CompUSA but I happen to like Circuit City, at least the ones in
my area.
 
W

wojo

ahh but the morality and right or wrong of stealing is pretty much what this
entire thread has been about.
 
K

kurttrail

wojo said:
ahh but the morality and right or wrong of stealing is pretty much
what this entire thread has been about.

No, it's about a bunch of morons calling the "fair use" of copyrighted
software theft, without a single legal precedent to back it up.

It is ya'lls morality and integrity that is suspect, spreading FEAR,
UNCERTAINTY, & DOUBT as fact.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
W

wojo

No more about the "morons" since you want to use the name who think a EULA
isn't a legal and binding contract. Accepting the EULA before installation
when asked to is the equivalent of signing a written contract.
 
K

kurttrail

wojo said:
** YES. MSDOS, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.1, Mac OS, Windows 95, Windows
98, Linux, Windows 98SE, Windows XP, and even Dr. DOS just for
kicks.
Good.

More like their NON-Paying Customers.

LOL! The real pirates just use a copy of the VL version. PA only affects
those that have already paid for their copy of software.

Notice you ignored this part. What, don't understand the connection?
Plenty? No there are some, but the software that is worthwhile are
copyrighted to be "only on one comuter at a time"

ROFL! Delusional.
Quote you on that? How many times have you posted comments about using
Keygen's etc.. to get around XP activation? That's Advocating
Copyright law?

The DMCA is about copy-protection, which is what having to enter a Product
Key is.

"Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or
defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title." -
DMCA - http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1201.html

So if a person needs to use a keygen in order to "fairly use" their copy of
software, the DMCA doesn't make circumventing the copy-protection illegal.

OK, you're not a chickensh*t but you had no answer to this? PMSL!
Not Chickensh*t, just tired of wasting my time with you. I'm thinking
that the reason Bruce is the only one who has jumped in this thread
is because everybody else has already grown tired of reading your
posts and don't bother to argue with you anymore. I know I've read
many posts similar to mine talking against the kind of crap you try
to push but now it's gotten old.

To me too, but at least I can back up my "crap" with the law, not the
obviously biased claims of MS and its BSA Trust. Let a liar like Bruce be
your hero. Most people here that don't have their heads firmly shoved MS's
ass, know him to be a coward, a liar, and a hypocrite.
Well thought out response.

"Whatever Kurttrail" Just parrotting you, moron!
Look Kurttrail you seem like a well educated person I am just very
much opposed to your outlook on the subject. It's a free country
hence your entitled to your opinion but as such I am also entitled to
disagree with you and to tell other people WHY some of these things
are wrong.

PMSL! You haven't yet. I've blown every argument YOU'VE made right out of
the water, and then you don't even respond to it.

Let me know when you have something more than just saying I'm "wrong."



--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 

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