Nikon LED questions

R

RSD99

Let me get this correct ... ???

You are stating that the depth of field of the scanner (actually the lens
in the scanner) is dependent on the type of light used. As in a scanner
that uses a LED will have a narrower (smaller) depth of field when compared
to a scanner that has an exactly identical optical system, but uses a
florescent bulb.

In other words: That the difference in the depth of field of the scanner is
due to the use of a narrow-band light source?

Is that correct ???
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
Are there known instances of VueScan fixing
banding problems with Microtek film scanners?

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same phenomenon here.
Calibration issues mentioned in other threads, usually result in
single pixel stripes along the scan length. What I call banding, is
wide bands of non-neutral color, most likely caused by irregular light
emission.

Do you have a small example of the kind of defect you encounter?

Bart
 
N

Neil Gould

Recently said:
This has been the conventional wisdom for some time.

Having recently disassembled my LS-8000 for cleaning,
I can tell you that it has a surprisingly large lens.

I'm guessing 75 to 85 mm focal length and an aperture
of around f2.8 to f3.5 or so.
A "surprisingly large lens" would be needed for a surprisingly large
aperture, as well. ;-)

The combination of close-focusing and low light will pretty much assure a
narrow depth of field. Since exposure time and aperture are the only
variables that can compensate for the different amounts of light from
these sources, I'd bet that the best-fit compromise between the cost of a
wide-aperture lens and long-exposure problems account for the DOF.

Regards,

Neil


Neil
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

rafeb said:
Of course the retort to this is that CCFL
illumination requires more sophisticated
calibration than LED,
Why?

and most scanner
drivers/firmware simply aren't up to the job.
If that were true then most film scanners would exhibit banding, but
they don't.
I'm less interested in the theory than the cure.
But without a theory there is no cure.
I rely on a Microtek 2500 to scan 4x5. I have
no real gripes with the resolution of this
beast, but the banding renders the scans useless
in many cases. I'm half tempted to chuck it and
get an Epson 4870 instead. Waddya think?
What? One of those nasty scanners with cold cathode fluorescent
lighting systems? Surely not - you'll be plagued by banding, mark
*your* words! :)
I briefly toyed with VueScan as a "fix" for this
problem, without much success. maybe I need to
give that another try.

Are there known instances of VueScan fixing
banding problems with Microtek film scanners?
I don't know of any reports of Vuescan fixing a banding problem that is
present with the native software, but there are plenty of reports of the
contrary.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

RSD99 <[email protected]> said:
Let me get this correct ... ???

You are stating that the depth of field of the scanner (actually the lens
in the scanner) is dependent on the type of light used. As in a scanner
that uses a LED will have a narrower (smaller) depth of field when compared
to a scanner that has an exactly identical optical system, but uses a
florescent bulb.

In other words: That the difference in the depth of field of the scanner is
due to the use of a narrow-band light source?

Is that correct ???
No. The LED output is less intense than the fluorescent lamp, even
after filtration into the three primary colours. Consequently, to
achieve similar scan times (actually requiring a 3x shorter exposure
because the CC lamp exposes all three colours simultaneously whilst the
LED exposes each colour in sequence) the LED system requires a faster
optical system. Thus the optical systems cannot be the same.

It is a consequence of the faster optic requirements of the LED source
(and user needs of similar or faster scan times) the DOF is smaller.
 
R

rafeb

Bart said:
SNIP



I'm not sure if we're talking about the same phenomenon here.
Calibration issues mentioned in other threads, usually result in single
pixel stripes along the scan length. What I call banding, is wide bands
of non-neutral color, most likely caused by irregular light emission.


Right, this is what I'm seeing on my Microtek 2500.
It's not the same thing as what Fernando has been
dealing with.

Do you have a small example of the kind of defect you encounter?


I'll post something later tonight, if I can.



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
R

RSD99

I know that ... but FWIW: that's NOT what "Don" was saying (or implying).




Kennedy McEwen said:
No. The LED output is less intense than the fluorescent lamp, even
after filtration into the three primary colours. Consequently, to
achieve similar scan times (actually requiring a 3x shorter exposure
because the CC lamp exposes all three colours simultaneously whilst the
LED exposes each colour in sequence) the LED system requires a faster
optical system. Thus the optical systems cannot be the same.

It is a consequence of the faster optic requirements of the LED source
(and user needs of similar or faster scan times) the DOF is smaller.
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when
replying)
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

RSD99 <[email protected]> said:
I know that ... but FWIW: that's NOT what "Don" was saying (or implying).
That's true - Don said that he couldn't recall the sound technical
reason for it, which is why I decided to give you the sound technical
reason.
 
R

rafe bustin

I don't know of any reports of Vuescan fixing a banding problem that is
present with the native software, but there are plenty of reports of the
contrary.


Well, that's kinda sad, then.

The more I think on it, the present problem
with my 2500 is more likely to be the white-strip
or black-strip than the lamp. Here's a pair of
samples:

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/normal.jpg
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/extreme.jpg


(The first "as scanned", the 2nd pushed with
curves to accentuate the banding. The scan is
from a 4x5 Portra negative.)

The banding is too consistent (along the height
of this image) to be caused by lamp flicker
during the scan.

I have no evidence that the Epson 4870
would be any better in this regard, though
I've heard no similar reports of banding
with the Epson.

If it's a problem with Microtek's calibration
firmware, no "alternative" driver is going to
fix this.

Any ideas on how to deal with it through
post-processing? I'm stumped.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
N

Neil Gould

Recently said:
I don't know of any reports of Vuescan fixing a banding problem that
is present with the native software, but there are plenty of reports
of the contrary.


Well, that's kinda sad, then.

The more I think on it, the present problem
with my 2500 is more likely to be the white-strip
or black-strip than the lamp. Here's a pair of
samples:

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/normal.jpg
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/extreme.jpg
[...]

If it's a problem with Microtek's calibration
firmware, no "alternative" driver is going to
fix this.
If those streaks are consistent, this could be a rather simple problem to
correct via software. What scanning software are you using and how are you
calibrating your scanner?
Any ideas on how to deal with it through
post-processing? I'm stumped.
Have you tried to scan monochromatic targets (not b&w, but single gelatin
filter colors plus black, white, and gray)? If so, what do you get in the
way of banding?

Perhaps the "dark slide subtraction" methods (or some variant thereof)
described in the "Minolta 5400: The classic (mostly green) lines" thread
might help?

Neil
 
R

rafe bustin

Recently said:
I don't know of any reports of Vuescan fixing a banding problem that
is present with the native software, but there are plenty of reports
of the contrary.


Well, that's kinda sad, then.

The more I think on it, the present problem
with my 2500 is more likely to be the white-strip
or black-strip than the lamp. Here's a pair of
samples:

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/normal.jpg
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/extreme.jpg
[...]

If it's a problem with Microtek's calibration
firmware, no "alternative" driver is going to
fix this.
If those streaks are consistent, this could be a rather simple problem to
correct via software. What scanning software are you using and how are you
calibrating your scanner?

It's Microtek's ScanWizard. Any calibration must
be happening either in ScanWizard or the firmware.
There's no input (ICC) profile.

Have you tried to scan monochromatic targets (not b&w, but single gelatin
filter colors plus black, white, and gray)? If so, what do you get in the
way of banding?

No such filters in hand, but I supposed I
could whip something up.
Perhaps the "dark slide subtraction" methods (or some variant thereof)
described in the "Minolta 5400: The classic (mostly green) lines" thread
might help?


Thanks, I'll check it out.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
R

rgbcmyk

Thanks Kennedy for the response, I cannot do it any better myself. For
those who are already confused like myself, we don't need any more
misleading postings and urban legends here. We appreciate posts that are
supported with data and/or context.
 
R

rgbcmyk

There goes rafe again. Making statements without any supporting data or
context. Don't expect him to respond to your questions.
 
R

rgbcmyk

Don said:
I believe it has to do with the LED wavelength but I don't remember
the exact details.

However, it's definitely based on solid and objective scientific
reasons and after reading the explanation I accepted and mentally
filed it as such. I'm sorry, but I don't have any more details than
that.

Don, no need to apologize, and thanks for telling it like it is.
No deterioration over time (conventional lights slowly dim with time),
purity of light, no explicit need for filters, perfect registration
due to physical arrangement of LEDs (no leading blue shadows, or
trailing red shadows, for example), color purity and saturation due to
LED wavelength, etc...

What are the blue and red shadows? In practice, how significant are
these advantages? Are scans from a scanner with LED light source
"better"? If so, in what ways? In a blind test, can you distinguish
between scans from a scanner with a LED light source from those from a
scanner with a CCFL?
 
N

Neil Gould

Recently said:
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/normal.jpg
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/extreme.jpg
[...]

If it's a problem with Microtek's calibration
firmware, no "alternative" driver is going to
fix this.
If those streaks are consistent, this could be a rather simple
problem to correct via software. What scanning software are you
using and how are you calibrating your scanner?

It's Microtek's ScanWizard. Any calibration must
be happening either in ScanWizard or the firmware.
There's no input (ICC) profile.
I presume that you're using the Kodak target? I've found that my ArtixScan
scanners will *not* calibrate properly without it.
No such filters in hand, but I supposed I
could whip something up.
You should be able to purchase primary color gels from either photo or
lighting supply stores. Those, plus the black, white and gray should tell
you what's going on with the CCDs.

Neil
 
D

Don

I know that ... but FWIW: that's NOT what "Don" was saying (or implying).

Yes it is!

That's *exactly* what Don is both saying and implying:
I believe it has to do with the LED wavelength but I don't remember
the exact details.

However, it's definitely based on solid and objective scientific
reasons and after reading the explanation I accepted and mentally
filed it as such. I'm sorry, but I don't have any more details than
that.

Since you obviously missed them, the two key phrases are:

I believe ... I don't remember the exact details.

and

it's definitely based on solid and objective scientific reasons

Don.

P.S. With many thanks to Kennedy for filling in the blanks! Filed for
future reference so next time I don't have to be so vague.
 
D

Don

What are the blue and red shadows?

I noticed that on my flatbed, actually. The problem is demonstrated by
leading edge of a photo exhibiting a thin blue cast and the trailing
edge a red one. Just a few pixels wide.

I only noticed it because I was scanning B&W pics in color. However,
after noticing it I went back and the same effect was there on color
pic scans as well, but obviously somewhat hidden because of the color.
Also, the effect varies and is more pronounced on thicker paper.

The reason is that the light source and the CCDs are not in perfect
alignment. Well, they can't be because the light has to be reflected
on to the sensors So the light source is at an angle to the CCDs (e.g.
a 45 degree angle). Because of that some of the sensors get partially
obscured (in the shadow) at start and end of the scan causing above
blue/red shadows (assuming the R,G & B order of elements).

Now, what does that have to do with LEDs and film scanners?

Well, a similar effect (color impurity) can be observed in non-Nikon
film scanners but due to different reasons (although filters play a
key part), and is not limited to leading and trailing edges, or blue
and red only. On Nikons all three colors are captured on a single CCD
array but using 3 light sources i.e. each of the RGB LEDs is turned on
in succession.

Other scanners do it "backwards". They tend to have 3 filters (one for
each color) and use a single white light source. The problem with this
approach is that colors (filters) tend to bleed into each other so
some postprocessing is needed to clean this up, in turn causing image
deterioration by lowering signal to noise ratio.

Nikons, by contrast, produce clearly separated colors with no need for
such postprocessing so the image is less "polluted" because it needs
no unnecessary data massaging afterwards. Not to mention that filtered
white light is not as pure as the LED lights, to start with.

So "blue and red shadows" may have been a slight misnomer, but I used
it as a synonym for overall color purity and separation.
In practice, how significant are
these advantages? Are scans from a scanner with LED light source
"better"? If so, in what ways? In a blind test, can you distinguish
between scans from a scanner with a LED light source from those from a
scanner with a CCFL?

Well, scans from LED scanners tend to be sharper because, as explained
above, data is more "direct". They also tend to be less noisy and with
purer colors.

I have no first hand experience with conventional light source film
scanners so I can't say how obvious this is in a side by side
comparison (I guess that also depends on how closely one looks) but I
was sold on the theory and decided that LED scanners are the way to
go.

However, the most important point (for me personally) is the stability
of LEDs as a light source. I don't like the inevitable deterioration
of conventional light sources over time. It's that "moving target"
aspect that makes me uncomfortable. It's what I would call "messy"
requiring much more "fuss" (i.e. calibration) to remedy an otherwise
avoidable problem.

Finally, one last thing. Not all LED scanners are created equal. It's
my understanding that the new Minolta uses a single white LED which
will presumably suffer from many of the same problems as the single
conventional light source, although it may produce less noise.

Don.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Sorry about taking some time to respond to this Rafe, but half way
through writing this message my computer "clicked", the screen went
black and it wouldn't reboot - not even as far as the BIOS or POST
beeps! After some tests I concluded the motherboard had died and,
having now replaced that and about 250 reboots later, with new drivers
being found and installed I found the ADSL driver had been corrupted and
I couldn't get net access! Now generally I keep my system CDs in a safe
place, but the CD for the ADSL modem wasn't filed where it should have
been, which meant searching through dozens of boxes of CDs! Eventually
I tracked it down and I am back online. Hopefully most of the other
peripherals still work, but I will have to try them in sequence -
haven't even checked if the Nikon works on the new firewire port yet!

rafe bustin said:
The more I think on it, the present problem
with my 2500 is more likely to be the white-strip
or black-strip than the lamp. Here's a pair of
samples:

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/normal.jpg
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/2500band/extreme.jpg


(The first "as scanned", the 2nd pushed with
curves to accentuate the banding. The scan is
from a 4x5 Portra negative.)

The banding is too consistent (along the height
of this image) to be caused by lamp flicker
during the scan.

I have no evidence that the Epson 4870
would be any better in this regard, though
I've heard no similar reports of banding
with the Epson.

If it's a problem with Microtek's calibration
firmware, no "alternative" driver is going to
fix this.
To me it looks like a white calibration point problem, since it appears
more in the highlights than in the shadows. Also, because it is broad
bands with soft edges, rather than discrete sharply defined lines, I
agree it looks like contamination of the white reference area - possible
with dirt or dust. I am no familiar with the scanner you are using, but
perhaps the calibration field has a glass surface area - perhaps
calibration on a glass film holder? For a slide scanner, calibration
should really be performed on an aerial image without any surface near
the focal plane.
Any ideas on how to deal with it through
post-processing? I'm stumped.
You could try a variation of Fernando's approach , but using a white
reference to correct the response characteristics. This is a little
more complicated than dark frame subtraction, because it requires both a
dark and a white (or at least light, unsaturated) frame, again captured
in linear gamma space. You need enough pixels in the frame as to ensure
that any random specs of dust in them (if you have a glass surface) are
negligible. As with Fernando's DFS, average these along the scan axis
retaining as much precision as possible, to create six linear arrays
(rgb black and rgb light). Then subtract the dark arrays from the light
ones to get three new linear arrays representing the response of the
individual cells in the scanner. What you want, is to transform this
into correction coefficients for the cell variations - or at least the
residual variations after the Microtek calibration has done its rather
poor job. This is achieved by calculating the average of each of the
three arrays and then calculating the correction factor from
C(i) = R/r(i) where C(i) is the correction to be applied to the i'th
cell, R is the average of all of the cells of that colour, and r(i) is
the response of the i'th cell that you previously estimated from the
difference between the light and dark arrays.

If you then multiply the image by this correction factor for each cell
it should correct the banding. This can be achieved in PS, but it is
probably easier to implement in a separate response correction program,
such as the DFS procedure that Fernando produced. You will get better
results if you also apply the DFS using the averaged dark frame first,
depending on the amplitude of the dark signal for each cell.

As I say, a little more complex, but trivial compared to programming the
whole thing in machine code (yes, machine code, not even CPU mnemonics!)
as I had to do about 25 years ago! Oh, when computers were simple
little beasts. ;-)

Now, back to testing that the drivers for this new motherboard hasn't
corrupted anything else on my system!
 
R

rafe bustin

Sorry about taking some time to respond to this Rafe, but half way
through writing this message my computer "clicked", the screen went
black and it wouldn't reboot - not even as far as the BIOS or POST
beeps! After some tests I concluded the motherboard had died and,
having now replaced that and about 250 reboots later, with new drivers
being found and installed I found the ADSL driver had been corrupted and
I couldn't get net access! Now generally I keep my system CDs in a safe
place, but the CD for the ADSL modem wasn't filed where it should have
been, which meant searching through dozens of boxes of CDs! Eventually
I tracked it down and I am back online. Hopefully most of the other
peripherals still work, but I will have to try them in sequence -
haven't even checked if the Nikon works on the new firewire port yet!


Hey, no problem, Kennedy, and thanks for your
help I've had my share of similar glitches this
year, I think know where you're coming from.

A couple of months ago I thought my LS-8000 had
died. It would get to a certain point in its
scan sequence (the very end of the scan) and my
whole computer would go blank. Not frozen, not
blue-screened, but turned off.

First time it happenned, I pretended it hadn't.

But then it happenned again. And again.
Always at the same point in the scan.

I removed and reinstalled the Nikon drivers. No joy.

I cleaned out every trace of "nikon" and "nkn"
from my registry. No joy.

When I discovered that the scanner worked OK
on another computer, I felt a lot better.

Then the "turn off" event happenned in some
other application... MS Word, I think.

I read somewhere that Athlon CPUs draw heavily
from the +12V power supply. I ordered a monster
600 Watt power suppy and installed it. No joy!

Then I took the computer apart one more time,
and noticed that the CPU heat sink was just a
wee bit crooked.

Bingo. That was it. Happily ever after.

I really couldn't believe it. But anyway, it
was two weeks or so of sheer frustration (and
about 100 reboots) to get to the bottom of it.

You get a sense of how much that LS-8000 means
to me, though <G>.

Hope your computer recovery continues to go well.
Good luck, and thanks for the help with the
Microtek calibration.

PS, here's a link to the current version of
the Microtek:

<http://www.microtekusa.com/as2500f.html>

It's a huge beast, but it's no Nikon.
Did you ever see my "drum scan saga" pages?
You might get a kick out of this:

<http://www.terrapinphoto.com/drumscansaga/>



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
C

CSM1

OT:
Ping Kennedy McEwen and everybody that can not find that program on what CD.

There is a nice program that does a good job of cataloging your floppy
disks, CDs and DVDs (data not video) collection.
It makes searching for a program or driver easy if you comment what the CD
or Disk is for.
http://www.elcomsoft.com/adc.html

The current cost for one user license is $20 USD.
No more digging through hundreds of disks or CDs.
 

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