New Minolta Scan Elite 5400-II

W

winhag

My understanding is that calibration becomes such an issue with the
scanhancer because it is an aftermarket product. Most scanners
calibrate for light source variation as well as CCD variation. If the
calibration is done without the scanhancer (or other diffuser) in the
light path, then there can be issues since it (the diffuser) affects
how the light is distributed. Even if the diffuser makes the light more
even, the calibration will 'throw things off' if it was not done with
the diffuser in the light path. Since the scanhancer (or other
diffuser) is an aftermarket product, it may be difficult or impossible
to do the calibration correctly. For example, with the Nikon, if the
calibration is attempted with the scanhancer in the path, the scanner
firmware 'thinks' that the light level is too low and generates a
hardware error. If the scanner had been designed with a diffuser (as is
the case for the old 5400) then the firmware/software would know what
to expect and could in fact calibrate with the diffuser in the light
path.
On the subject of a diffuse light source, note that the latest top of
the line Imacon boasts having a diffuse light source......just like
the old 5400, or just like a Nikon or Minolta with a scanhancer. I am
still surprised that given how long CCD scanners have been around,
vendors still focus on the obvious selling point of scan speed and
mostly ignore the benefits of having a diffuse light source. Of course
they can't even write software that doesn't clip highlights and shadows
in negatives so maybe I shouldn't be surprised :)

W
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

SNIP
I wonder whether the negative color matching is all software
--akin to licensing Silverfast's Negafix--or if it actually affects
the hardware exposure.

Scanning masked color negative film will require boosting the
green/blue channel exposure (relative to red) in such a ratio that the
mask color is neutralized. That is not possible with a single white
light exposure. Software can only correct for colorbalance, not for
lack of exposure, and will lead to more noise when the underexposed
channels are boosted (either by amplification of the ADC input or
afterwards on the quantized signal).

Bart
 
F

Fernando

Bart said:
Scanning masked color negative film will require boosting the green/blue
channel exposure (relative to red) in such a ratio that the mask color
is neutralized. That is not possible with a single white light exposure.

Now I need your help.
It was said (by Ed Hamrick) that Vuescan has the ability to increment
the exposure of the blue channel for negatives, precisely to compensate
for the orange mask without resorting to postprocessing only (worse SNR).
I can clearly measure a longer scanning time with color negatives on my
5400.
The 5400 has a fluo lamp, so obviously it's impossible to boost say the
blue light source. Is it possible to increment the exposure time for the
blue sensors only?

Fernando
 
A

Anoni Moose

Kennedy said:
Fairly obvious route - have you checked the costs of IEE-1394 and USB-2
chipsets? Not to mention the fact that USB-2 is built into most new
PCs, whilst 1394 requires another card - which has to be supplied with
the scanner yet is superfluous to Mac users. All a bit of an
unnecessary expense really.

I'm not so sure. My old motherboard included a 1394 interface on it
and the new one I'm getting (under $100 ones, btw) has one on it too.

Looking at PC computer cases, they're now having 1394 connectors on
the front.

My 3+ year old dell (PC) laptop has a 1394 interface on it.

That said, all of the above have USB interfaces too. :)

Mike
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Bart van der Wolf said:
SNIP

Scanning masked color negative film will require boosting the
green/blue channel exposure (relative to red) in such a ratio that the
mask color is neutralized. That is not possible with a single white
light exposure.

Why?

Most tri-linear CCDs offer independent control of the red, green and
blue lines for many, including this, reason.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Fernando said:
Now I need your help.
It was said (by Ed Hamrick) that Vuescan has the ability to increment
the exposure of the blue channel for negatives, precisely to compensate
for the orange mask without resorting to postprocessing only (worse SNR).
I can clearly measure a longer scanning time with color negatives on my
5400.
The 5400 has a fluo lamp, so obviously it's impossible to boost say the
blue light source. Is it possible to increment the exposure time for
the blue sensors only?
Of course it is - that is why the CCDs are designed this way.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

I'm not so sure. My old motherboard included a 1394 interface on it
and the new one I'm getting (under $100 ones, btw) has one on it too.

Looking at PC computer cases, they're now having 1394 connectors on
the front.

My 3+ year old dell (PC) laptop has a 1394 interface on it.

That said, all of the above have USB interfaces too. :)
Yes, some top end PC motherboards do have integral 1394 interfaces,
however this is much the same as USB used to be - via a separate 1394
controller chip.

These days, USB and USB2 are, like audio, PCI, ATA and RAID, an integral
part of the Southbridge in the PC chipset, so is, in essence, free. eg.
http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/925x/index.htm
http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/915g/index.htm
http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/875p/index.htm etc.

Putting IEEE-1394 on a motherboard is additional expense, so most just
don't have it. Doesn't mean you can't buy motherboards that do have it,
but they tend to be the more expensive boards.
 
H

Hecate

Fairly obvious route - have you checked the costs of IEE-1394 and USB-2
chipsets? Not to mention the fact that USB-2 is built into most new
PCs, whilst 1394 requires another card - which has to be supplied with
the scanner yet is superfluous to Mac users. All a bit of an
unnecessary expense really.

Actually, at least in the UK, I doubt you can buy a computer that
doesn't have at least 1 or 2 1394 ports as standard. Even if they
didn't you can get a two port card for about £15 (I know, I did a
couple of years ago.)

It's just a cost saving measure by the suits working for Minolta. I
certainly won't buy a scanner that doesn't have firewire unless there
is no other choice.
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Fernando said:
Now I need your help.
It was said (by Ed Hamrick) that Vuescan has the ability to
increment the exposure of the blue channel for negatives, precisely
to compensate for the orange mask without resorting to
postprocessing only (worse SNR).
I can clearly measure a longer scanning time with color negatives on
my 5400.
The 5400 has a fluo lamp, so obviously it's impossible to boost say
the blue light source. Is it possible to increment the exposure time
for the blue sensors only?

I wasn't very clear on what I intended to say, see my more elaborate
reaction to Kennedy's response below.

Bart
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Kennedy McEwen said:
Why?

Most tri-linear CCDs offer independent control of the red, green and
blue lines for many, including this, reason.


I should have elaborated a bit more on what I intended to say, and
should have rephrased to
"It is not optimally possible with a single white light exposure". I
had hoped that the snipped part made it clear that there are other
ways, but with their specific caveats.

IMHO a better way of tackling it is with electronic shutters
(http://microscopy.fsu.edu/primer/java/photomicrography/ccd/shutter/
or
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/applicationNotes/ShutterOperations.pdf)
per scan line, although we cannot be sure if they are actually used.
Especially since we are talking about a consumer level scanner, I
wouldn't be surprised if shortcuts are used instead.

There are basically four ways (I can think of) of controlling the ADC
output levels.
1. Different (illumination levels or) integration times with a single
scan line.
2. Different pre-ADC offsets and/or analog gain per R/G/B color.
3. "Electronic shutter" control per R/G/B scan line.
4. Post ADC processing.

No.1 is very feasible with single scanline or full image matrix
sensors and R/G/B colored light, and it will 'optimize' speed because
only the more attenuated channel colors need longer exposure.
No.2 is very likely to introduce color shifts at certain film
densities, due to non-linearities through-out the full ADC range
(especially near the saturation level). In any case it would require
stable operating temperature control and frequent calibration, but
still increase noise for the "weaker" channels.
No.3 may or may not be available for the sensor used (it seems more
common for certain types of cameras and implemented as global
electronic shutter for the entire frame), we don't know whether it is
for this scanner. Anyway, it needs to adjust the exposure/stepping
time of all three scan lines to the one needed for the single most
attenuated color (which for CN film defeats most of the scan speed
potential of a tri-linear CCD). It'll also add cost and complexity to
the sensor and supporting circuits, but it is obviously possible. In
my view it could also have negative impact on S/N (reduced fill factor
and potential well capacity). Larger silicon real estate increases
cost which seems a less likely avenue for a consumer scanner.
No.4 will increase noise for the weaker channel.

Bart
 
M

Mendel Leisk

In my experience with the original 5400, the firewire connection slows
down less (if at all), if you are doing something such as Photoshop, at
the same time. USB2 on the other hand, is noticeably and unacceptably
slowed by such multi-tasking.

As others have said, adding firewire is no big deal, did that with my
new pc purchase.
 
R

rgbcmyk

Which way is the current 5400 using in controlling the individual
channel exposure in the Exposure Control tab? I use these controls to
remove clippings that sometimes show up in slide scans. They do cause
some color shifts, but that can be corrected in PS.
 
W

winhag

Bart,

I would guess that 'No. 1' is what is used by the Nikon Coolscan series
as they have separate
R,G,B LEDs with a 'single' CCD sensor?

W
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Bart,

I would guess that 'No. 1' is what is used by the Nikon Coolscan
series as they have separate R,G,B LEDs with a 'single' CCD sensor?

Some of them do, but some use 2-line (e.g. LS-5000) and 3-line (e.g.
LS-9000) CCDs, with alternating R/G/B/IR LED illumination.

Bart
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

Which way is the current 5400 using in controlling the individual
channel exposure in the Exposure Control tab?

The documentation doesn't say, so I don't know for sure.
I use these controls to remove clippings that sometimes show
up in slide scans. They do cause some color shifts, but that
can be corrected in PS.

Yes, that's what the exposure controls are for, adjusting the relative
amounts of either R/G/B exposure or ADC offset+gain settings. For the
best quality scans, you typically want to maximize the channel
exposures without clipping, and then correct for color by setting the
Black+White point.

Bart
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Hecate said:
Actually, at least in the UK, I doubt you can buy a computer that
doesn't have at least 1 or 2 1394 ports as standard

Oh you certainly can.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Bart van der Wolf said:
I should have elaborated a bit more on what I intended to say, and
should have rephrased to
"It is not optimally possible with a single white light exposure". I
had hoped that the snipped part made it clear that there are other
ways, but with their specific caveats.

IMHO a better way of tackling it is with electronic shutters
(http://microscopy.fsu.edu/primer/java/photomicrography/ccd/shutter/ or
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/applicationNo
tes/ShutterOperations.pdf) per scan line, although we cannot be sure if
they are actually used. Especially since we are talking about a
consumer level scanner, I wouldn't be surprised if shortcuts are used
instead.
Those references seem to refer to 2-Dimensional CCDs, not linear
devices. A mechanical shutter is required for many 2-D CCD because they
use the same CCD structure to transfer the charge packets to the output
as they do to capture the image in the first place. Consequently, the
CCD is still responsive to the image as the charge moves through the
device. Whilst this can be beneficial in certain cases (time delay and
integrate, for example, in a scanning system) it generally results in
significant image smearing.

In a linear CCD that doesn't happen. The charge is transferred to a
parallel CCD on completion of the exposure. This second device is
'blind', and the charge can then be read out without any smearing of the
image. Consequently there is NO need for any "mechanical shutter" with
a linear CCD - because each line is actually two lines, an image line
and a transfer line.
There are basically four ways (I can think of) of controlling the ADC
output levels.
1. Different (illumination levels or) integration times with a single
scan line.

As used in (all?) film scanners.
2. Different pre-ADC offsets and/or analog gain per R/G/B color.
3. "Electronic shutter" control per R/G/B scan line.

Defaults to version 1 for the linear CCDs used in scanners.
4. Post ADC processing.

No.1 is very feasible with single scanline or full image matrix sensors
and R/G/B colored light, and it will 'optimize' speed because only the
more attenuated channel colors need longer exposure.

It is also eminently feasible with a single white light. Each of the
RGB lines have independent integration controls. When the CCD line is
held in reset mode, all of the photocurrent generated is effectively
dumped to the substrate, not into the wells. Turn reset off on any line
and the device starts to generate photocurrent signal. The red, green
and blue exposure can be controlled separately even with a single white
light source - it does not need separate R/G/B lights - the CCD lines
are individually filtered to the three colours.

Only in Nikon scanners does the exposure for each colour takes place
sequentially on the same CCD line(s - each responding to the same colour
of illumination at any instant). The exposure time can be different
for each colour because each colour is sensed sequentially.

Conventional scanners use a white source and filter at the CCD - the
exposure of each filtered line is controlled independently.
No.2 is very likely to introduce color shifts at certain film
densities, due to non-linearities through-out the full ADC range
(especially near the saturation level). In any case it would require
stable operating temperature control and frequent calibration, but
still increase noise for the "weaker" channels.

And it wouldn't work any better in practice that Version 4 because most
CCDs don't have a noise floor that is significantly better than the ADC
performance of most modern scanners. In the case of the Minolta, I
seriously doubt that the CCD has a noise floor that is better than the
16-bit ADC - so you won't get any benefit from analogue processing prior
to the ADC.
No.3 may or may not be available for the sensor used (it seems more
common for certain types of cameras and implemented as global
electronic shutter for the entire frame), we don't know whether it is
for this scanner.

Every tri-linear colour CCD I have ever seen has this capability.

For example, a fairly old but typical device at:
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/products/linea
r/KLI-2113LongSpec.pdf

See Section 1.4 - there are separate LogR, LogG, LogB controls to effect
independent exposure control on each colour.

The complete Kodak range is at:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/digital/ccd/products/linear/linearMain.jht
ml

The complete Sony range is at:
http://products.sel.sony.com/semi/ccd.html#CCD Linear Sensors
Individual control of the Sony CCDs is via the ROG control.

All tri-linear CCDs have similar independent exposure control for each
line - how else do you expect them to balance the output to white light
in the first place, given the different colour response of each channel?
This isn't a problem that is unique to scanning negatives - every colour
application has the same issue.
Anyway, it needs to adjust the exposure/stepping time of all three
scan lines to the one needed for the single most attenuated color
(which for CN film defeats most of the scan speed potential of a
tri-linear CCD).

Which is why, if you time the scanner, you will find it takes longer to
scan negatives than slides - even though slides have a higher Dmax, they
have a lower Dmin, especially compared to the blue channel of a colour
negative.
It'll also add cost and complexity to the sensor and supporting
circuits, but it is obviously possible.

No more cost or complexity than you need for the exposure control
anyway. What do you think those RGB gain controls are doing on your
scanner? You have told everyone on this forum often enough - why the
sudden doubt? ;-)
In my view it could also have negative impact on S/N (reduced fill
factor and potential well capacity). Larger silicon real estate
increases cost which seems a less likely avenue for a consumer scanner.

There is no reduced fill factor, well capacity or increased silicon real
estate required to implement individual exposure control. It doesn't
have any impact on the S/N because the device simply operates as per
normal - on completion of the exposure, the charge from all of the
elements in the line are transferred in parallel to a separate CCD for
readout. In some devices this is a single device, giving all three
channels on a single output, but generally there are 3 separate readouts
clocked in parallel. The charge is transferred through this CCD which,
unlike the imaging line, is blind to illumination to avoid image
smearing. In a linear CCD, the well size can be as big as you like,
just by making the channel wider, since there isn't a significant
constraint in that axis.
No.4 will increase noise for the weaker channel.
No more than Version 2, for the reasons I gave above.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Bart van der Wolf said:
I should have elaborated a bit more on what I intended to say, and
should have rephrased to
"It is not optimally possible with a single white light exposure". I
had hoped that the snipped part made it clear that there are other
ways, but with their specific caveats.

IMHO a better way of tackling it is with electronic shutters
(http://microscopy.fsu.edu/primer/java/photomicrography/ccd/shutter/ or
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/applicationNo
tes/ShutterOperations.pdf) per scan line, although we cannot be sure if
they are actually used. Especially since we are talking about a
consumer level scanner, I wouldn't be surprised if shortcuts are used
instead.
Those references seem to refer to 2-Dimensional CCDs, not linear
devices. A mechanical shutter is required for many 2-D CCD because they
use the same CCD structure to transfer the charge packets to the output
as they do to capture the image in the first place. Consequently, the
CCD is still responsive to the image as the charge moves through the
device. Whilst this can be beneficial in certain cases (time delay and
integrate, for example, in a scanning system) it generally results in
significant image smearing.

In a linear CCD that doesn't happen. The charge is transferred to a
parallel CCD on completion of the exposure. This second device is
'blind', and the charge can then be read out without any smearing of the
image. Consequently there is NO need for any "mechanical shutter" with
a linear CCD - because each line is actually two lines, an image line
and a transfer line.
There are basically four ways (I can think of) of controlling the ADC
output levels.
1. Different (illumination levels or) integration times with a single
scan line.

As used in Nikon film scanners. Actually, it doesn't need to be a
single scan line - as per the LS-8000 and LS-9000, it could be many
lines scanned simultaneously.
2. Different pre-ADC offsets and/or analog gain per R/G/B color.
3. "Electronic shutter" control per R/G/B scan line.

As used in (all?) CCD scanners other than Nikon.
4. Post ADC processing.

No.1 is very feasible with single scanline or full image matrix sensors
and R/G/B colored light, and it will 'optimize' speed because only the
more attenuated channel colors need longer exposure.

One of the advantages of the Nikon range.
No.2 is very likely to introduce color shifts at certain film
densities, due to non-linearities through-out the full ADC range
(especially near the saturation level). In any case it would require
stable operating temperature control and frequent calibration, but
still increase noise for the "weaker" channels.

And it wouldn't work any better in practice that Version 4 because most
CCDs don't have a noise floor that is significantly better than the ADC
performance of most modern scanners. In the case of the Minolta, I
seriously doubt that the CCD has a noise floor that is better than the
16-bit ADC - so you won't get any benefit from analogue processing prior
to the ADC.
No.3 may or may not be available for the sensor used (it seems more
common for certain types of cameras and implemented as global
electronic shutter for the entire frame), we don't know whether it is
for this scanner.

Every tri-linear colour CCD I have ever seen has this capability.

For example, a fairly old but typical device at:
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/products/linea
r/KLI-2113LongSpec.pdf

See Section 1.4 - there are separate LogR, LogG, LogB controls to effect
independent exposure control on each colour.

The complete Kodak range is at:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/digital/ccd/products/linear/linearMain.jht
ml

The complete Sony range is at:
http://products.sel.sony.com/semi/ccd.html#CCD Linear Sensors
Individual control of the Sony CCDs is via the ROG control.

All tri-linear CCDs have similar independent exposure control for each
line - how else do you expect them to balance the output to white light
in the first place, given the different colour response of each channel?
This isn't a problem that is unique to scanning negatives - every colour
application has the same issue.

Each of the RGB lines have independent exposure controls. When the CCD
line is held in reset mode, all of the photocurrent generated is
effectively dumped to the substrate, not into the wells. Turn reset off
on any line and the device starts to generate photocurrent signal. The
red, green and blue exposure can be controlled separately even with a
single white light source - it does not need separate R/G/B lights - the
CCD lines are individually filtered to the three colours.

Conventional scanners use a white source and filter at the CCD - the
exposure of each filtered line is controlled independently.

Anyway, it needs to adjust the exposure/stepping time of all three
scan lines to the one needed for the single most attenuated color
(which for CN film defeats most of the scan speed potential of a
tri-linear CCD).

Which is why, if you time the scanner, you will find it takes longer to
scan negatives than slides - even though slides have a higher Dmax, they
have a lower Dmin, especially compared to the blue channel of a colour
negative.
It'll also add cost and complexity to the sensor and supporting
circuits, but it is obviously possible.

No more cost or complexity than you need for the exposure control
anyway. What do you think those RGB gain controls are doing on your
scanner? You have told everyone on this forum often enough - why the
sudden doubt? ;-)
In my view it could also have negative impact on S/N (reduced fill
factor and potential well capacity). Larger silicon real estate
increases cost which seems a less likely avenue for a consumer scanner.

There is no reduced fill factor, well capacity or increased silicon real
estate required to implement individual exposure control. It doesn't
have any impact on the S/N because the device simply operates as per
normal - on completion of the exposure, the charge from all of the
elements in the line are transferred in parallel to a separate CCD for
readout. In some devices this is a single device, giving all three
channels on a single output, but generally there are 3 separate readouts
clocked in parallel. The charge is transferred through this CCD which,
unlike the imaging line, is blind to illumination to avoid image
smearing. In a linear CCD, the well size can be as big as you like,
just by making the channel wider, since there isn't a significant
constraint in that axis.
No.4 will increase noise for the weaker channel.
No more than Version 2, for the reasons I gave above.
 
H

Hecate

Oh you certainly can.

You must be shopping in the wrong place:

1. Mesh advert in this months PC Pro - their cheapest computer at
£499 includes Firewire.

2. Tiny Computers - cheapest at £499 in PC Advisor - includes
Firewire (not that I'd buy from Tiny but they are classic consumer
PCs).

3. Evesham, - the cheapest don't include Firewire (it's a £20 add-on)
but the Axis 64 MKR at only £740 does.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Hecate said:
3. Evesham, - the cheapest don't include Firewire

Thus disproving your argument.

As I said in a previous post, Firewire is an additional cost on PC
design *BECAUSE* is is not built into the basic chipset and requires
additional chips on the card.
 

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