.NET SUCKS --- READ FOLLOWING. MICROSOFT IS A SUCKY CO

Discussion in 'Microsoft Dot NET Framework' started by consumer62000@yahoo.com, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
    The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    throat.

    Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.

    Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    etc"
    My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
     
    , Sep 9, 2005
    #1
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  2. Tim Wilson Guest

    > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform
    > down someone's throat.

    Wrong. In the "C" world you still have choice. C++ works just fine. No one
    forces you to use .NET.

    > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?

    Simple... because not all applications require real-time behavior. In fact,
    I would argue that most applications do not require real-time behavior. So,
    yes, .NET *may* not be the best way to go in these scenarios. You answered
    your own "q". Any architect, or developer for that matter, should do their
    homework before deciding how an application should be written. Use the
    proper tools for the proper tasks. Microsoft gives developers options and
    it's your job to decide when and how to use them.

    --
    Tim Wilson
    ..Net Compact Framework MVP

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    > There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    > system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
    > The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    > throat.
    >
    > Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    > when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    > the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
    >
    > Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    > I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    > etc"
    > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
    >
     
    Tim Wilson, Sep 9, 2005
    #2
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  3. Chris Guest

    wrote:
    > Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    > There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    > system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
    > The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    > throat.
    >
    > Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    > when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    > the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
    >
    > Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    > I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    > etc"
    > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
    >


    Who would use an interpreted language for real time processing? Doesn't
    sound like someone knew what they were doing when they chose a language
    to meet their requirements.

    You shouldn't use .NET for this type of thing... you C or C++ or some
    other language that you control every aspect of the language.
     
    Chris, Sep 10, 2005
    #3
  4. Guest

    So responding to a request in fixed amount of time is realtime. And may
    I ask what kind of apps would your friends at Microsoft "recommend" for
    ..NET

    Slow application with no user expectations?
     
    , Sep 10, 2005
    #4
  5. So how often have you noticed the GC taking approching 1 second? I've never seen it and I've been able to allocate 40,000,000 objects per second that will cause alot of GCs.

    If you are talking about a system that mjust *never* take longer than a second then you shouldn't be using Windows or most versions of Unix - you need a realtime operating system that guarantees that it won't spend a whole bunch of time housekeeping.

    You must be writing a branch of software that is very unlike many many busniess apps that need to retieve data and perform complex processing on it but don;t require realtime like guarantees of reponse times.

    Regards

    Richard Blewett - DevelopMentor
    http://www.dotnetconsult.co.uk/weblog
    http://www.dotnetconsult.co.uk

    Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
    The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    throat.

    Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.

    Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    etc"
    My q to them is why did you create .NET then?


    [microsoft.public.dotnet.framework]
     
    Richard Blewett [DevelopMentor], Sep 10, 2005
    #5
  6. Lloyd Dupont Guest

    I would say if your program has a 1 second latency it's probably due to poor
    design (of the application itself) or extremely busy CPU already, than to
    the GC.
    I would recomend you start really investigate the cause of the problem
    instead of randomly targetting the GC.

    For example providing a code sample demonstrating your problem would be a
    first step toward valuable & hinsightful feedback.

    In case it's the GC, I will be .. amazed.
    But well, in this case let's imagine the kind of scenario where the CG could
    do that.
    As some other poster said, he was able to alloc / GC more than 40.000.000
    (40 millions) Object per second without trouble.

    So I doubt it's the sheer number of object which cause the GC trouble.
    Maybe it's the Dispose() method?
    Dispose() should be quick, do you have lengthy operation (such as
    Transaction.Commit()) in the Dispose() code of your objects?

    Also to answer an other question: what kind of application needs .NET to be
    developped.
    Well I would say I have yet to see a case where .NET didn't improve
    dramatically devlopment time and program reliability while, at the same
    time, keeping comparable performance.
    So it's probably a good solution for any developer on earth but you ;-)

    --
    If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw
    one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war
    is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.
    Jack Handey.
    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > So responding to a request in fixed amount of time is realtime. And may
    > I ask what kind of apps would your friends at Microsoft "recommend" for
    > .NET
    >
    > Slow application with no user expectations?
    >
     
    Lloyd Dupont, Sep 10, 2005
    #6
  7. Ian Evitable Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > So responding to a request in fixed amount of time is realtime. And may
    > I ask what kind of apps would your friends at Microsoft "recommend" for
    > .NET
    >
    > Slow application with no user expectations?
    >


    Solid application design requires a logical, systems oriented approach to
    development. Perhaps if you weren't so loaded with emotion and anti
    Microsoft sentiment you could determine the actual reasons for your
    application not meeting its requirement definitions rather than spouting off
    like a trantrum throwing child.

    It might well be that the .NET framework is not for your project but more
    often than not these crys of it being a buggy, unreliable, non performant
    platform are in fact more indicative of piss poor application design and/or
    development lacking in a "best practises" approach.

    Perhaps if you learn to approach your projects, and your posts for that
    matter, with a little more balance, maturity and professionalism you may not
    find yourself having either choosen the wrong tool for the job nor blaming
    it when you cant use it correctly.

    Ian
     
    Ian Evitable, Sep 10, 2005
    #7
  8. Guest

    Well,I can understand that you can't write RT apps in .NET But you
    Microsoft followers simply do what MSDN magazine talks about now.
    I have been doing Windows development for last 15 years.I don't hate MS
    but don't like the way they push .NET and shit like that in the name of
    productivity.
    The reason I have to use .NET is because none of my teammates would
    even wanna talk "C" or C++.

    Let me tell you all that I have been to MS interview and was quite
    surprised at the kind of developers they have.
    I was offered a job but I didn't take it and I told them why - because
    the people I interviewed there did not come across very smart people.
    So don't tell me that I don't know how to design a solution.
    They tried to pursue me for a week. Hiring manager sent me e-mail
    asking me to fly one more time and have a face to face talk.
    Maybe they have smart people like dave cutler in Windows team but no so
    great in other teams.

    I know I shouldn't use .NET in a app like ours but who would tell my
    peers who simple want to move where Microsoft leads them.

    You people have blindly supported MS all your lives and can't thing
    anything beyond MS.
     
    , Sep 10, 2005
    #8
  9. Scott M. Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    > There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    > system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.


    Stop right there. Is this a realistic scenario in the first place for a
    real-time applicaiton? I'd really *like* to get 40 miles per gallon from my
    SUV, but that doesn't mean that SUV's suck because they don't perform to
    that unrealistic expectation.

    > The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    > throat.


    Did you file a polie report about this? Because, I would think that someone
    from MS coming to your house or office and forcing something down your
    throat would be sufficient grounds for legal action. Strike two! It's easy
    to make bold statements/proclamations when they are based on non-truths and
    unrealistic expectations in the first place, isn't it?

    > Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    > when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    > the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.


    Does it? What tests have you run on this? What were your results? If this
    is such a mission-critical application and the GC running causes everything
    to stop for more than a second, I would say you need to go back to the
    hardware drawing board and come up with a more realistic application design
    for the low-end hardware architecture of your system.

    > Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    > I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    > etc"
    > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?


    To give you (the folks who would never like anything that MS makes)
    something new to bitch about?
     
    Scott M., Sep 10, 2005
    #9
  10. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    <snip>

    Uh, troll alert. Please don't feed the troll.
     
    Peter van der Goes, Sep 10, 2005
    #10
  11. Lloyd Dupont Guest

    > Uh, troll alert. Please don't feed the troll.
    hehehe......
    so true ;-)
     
    Lloyd Dupont, Sep 10, 2005
    #11
  12. Chris <> wrote:
    > Who would use an interpreted language for real time processing? Doesn't
    > sound like someone knew what they were doing when they chose a language
    > to meet their requirements.


    Um, .NET isn't interpreted... I'd agree that it's not suitable for
    real-time work, but it still runs as native code (after JITting).

    --
    Jon Skeet - <>
    http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
    If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
     
    Jon Skeet [C# MVP], Sep 10, 2005
    #12
  13. Nick Guest

    I have a real-time automation server written on .NET. Responding time is
    about 300ms. Works fine.

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > So responding to a request in fixed amount of time is realtime. And may
    > I ask what kind of apps would your friends at Microsoft "recommend" for
    > .NET
    >
    > Slow application with no user expectations?
    >
     
    Nick, Sep 10, 2005
    #13
  14. Mehdi Guest

    On 9 Sep 2005 16:33:01 -0700, wrote:

    > So responding to a request in fixed amount of time is realtime.


    Yes, that's part of the definition of a real time application.

    > And may
    > I ask what kind of apps would your friends at Microsoft "recommend" for
    > .NET


    If you want to develop a true real time application, they would recommend
    nor .NET neither Windows. Windows is not a real time OS because, among
    other things, it uses pre-emptive multi tasking, hence preventing you to
    know how long will a task in your program take. To do real time
    application, you must use a real time OS to begin with. Real time
    applications are a whole different world than desktop or server consumer
    applications.
     
    Mehdi, Sep 10, 2005
    #14
  15. I agree, real-time with 1 second response is no problem for .net -- it is a
    poorly designed application or component causing the problem. The GC will
    never take this long unless it is abused.

    Regards,
    Frank Hileman

    check out VG.net: http://www.vgdotnet.com
    Animated vector graphics system
    Integrated Visual Studio .NET graphics editor

    "Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I have a real-time automation server written on .NET. Responding time is
    >about 300ms. Works fine.
     
    Frank Hileman, Sep 10, 2005
    #15
  16. I agree with you. I had to implement a system that needed realtime data
    input from a device, the way we did it was we fabricated a peice of hardware
    that would buffer the data and keep it ready for the PC to read in a .. umm
    ... lossless manner ;-) .. KISS@Work.

    - Sahil Malik [MVP]
    ADO.NET 2.0 book -
    http://codebetter.com/blogs/sahil.malik/archive/2005/05/13/63199.aspx
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Richard Blewett [DevelopMentor]" <> wrote in
    message news:%...
    > So how often have you noticed the GC taking approching 1 second? I've
    > never seen it and I've been able to allocate 40,000,000 objects per second
    > that will cause alot of GCs.
    >
    > If you are talking about a system that mjust *never* take longer than a
    > second then you shouldn't be using Windows or most versions of Unix - you
    > need a realtime operating system that guarantees that it won't spend a
    > whole bunch of time housekeeping.
    >
    > You must be writing a branch of software that is very unlike many many
    > busniess apps that need to retieve data and perform complex processing on
    > it but don;t require realtime like guarantees of reponse times.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Richard Blewett - DevelopMentor
    > http://www.dotnetconsult.co.uk/weblog
    > http://www.dotnetconsult.co.uk
    >
    > Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    > There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    > system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
    > The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    > throat.
    >
    > Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    > when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    > the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
    >
    > Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    > I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    > etc"
    > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
    >
    >
    > [microsoft.public.dotnet.framework]
     
    Sahil Malik [MVP], Sep 11, 2005
    #16
  17. hB Guest

    I know c++ rulz! :p
    But dont blame dotnet for your poorly designed OR poorly coded (by your
    peers) app.

    ---
    hB
     
    hB, Sep 11, 2005
    #17
  18. Guest Guest

    If I read this correct, the logic is this:

    1. Real time systems must poll every 1 second
    2. .NET suspends threads during garbage collection
    3. Garbage Collection must happen when memory gets low
    4. Garbage collection will take more than one second
    5. Therefore, .NET sucks

    If I have your basic proof correct, it is quite easy to hack it to shreads.

    Hey, your frustrated. You may have also found a scenario where you need a
    screwdriver instead of a hammer. It does not mean the hammer sucks.
    --
    Gregory A. Beamer
    MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

    ***************************
    Think Outside the Box!
    ***************************


    "" wrote:

    > Let me tell you a scenario and you will see what I mean.
    > There is a large application that has communication with a real time
    > system . The app has to respond to the requests in no more than 1 s.
    > The app is a C# .NET app and everything is fine and everyone at
    > Microsoft is happy that they forced their "new" platform down someone's
    > throat.
    >
    > Now imagine a scenario where the GC has to collect the memory. Well,
    > when GC runs all the threads are suspended and there is no response to
    > the incoming requests and application fails a critical requirement.
    >
    > Well,any MS people here who can defend their sucky product,
    > I know they will say "don't use .NET for this or that...use C or C++
    > etc"
    > My q to them is why did you create .NET then?
    >
    >
     
    Guest, Sep 12, 2005
    #18
  19. Guest Guest

    At first, I was under the assumption you really wanted to get an answer. Now,
    I am more inclined to think you are a troll. If you are not, at least step
    off the high horse and start responding in a civil manner.
    --
    Gregory A. Beamer
    MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

    ***************************
    Think Outside the Box!
    ***************************


    "" wrote:

    > So responding to a request in fixed amount of time is realtime. And may
    > I ask what kind of apps would your friends at Microsoft "recommend" for
    > ..NET
    >
    > Slow application with no user expectations?
    >
    >
     
    Guest, Sep 12, 2005
    #19
  20. > Now,
    > I am more inclined to think you are a troll.


    The email address is telling.

    --
    William Stacey [MVP]
     
    William Stacey [MVP], Sep 12, 2005
    #20
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