Micro ATX desktop cases

[Ed Coolidge]

I'm trying to find a Micro ATX case of an old PII system that I plan on
turning into a DOS/Win98 PC for old games that just won't run on my
AMD64 machine. I really don't have room for mini tower case on my
desk. I can make room for a desktop case though. The PC will have a
full-size AWE32 ISA card handling sound and music while in DOS.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be very many Micro ATX desktop
cases that have the clearance from front to back for a 12" ISA board.
The mainboard itself is about 9.5"x8.5"

Also, don't most Micro ATX cases come with a smaller power supply?
About how many watts would this PC require? Here's the specs:

333MHz PII
128 MB PC100
integrated ATI Rage AGP video
8GB HD
CD-ROM

Also what about cooling? The PII has a huge fanless Aluminum heatsink.
Other than concerns about space, the CPU should be OK, but I don't think
that the little fan in the PSU is going to give enough airflow.

 

[Fitz]

Would something like an Antec Aria do the trick...
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15130 ?

Fitz

 

[Ed Coolidge]

Would something like an Antec Aria do the trick...
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15130 ?

Fitz

It might work, but it's a bit expensive for a simple PII PC.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

Ed Coolidge wrote:

I think I found an mATX desktop case that might fit, but it only has a
150w PSU. Is that enough for this PC?

 

[Ed Coolidge]

I'm trying to find a Micro ATX case of an old PII system that I plan
on turning into a DOS/Win98 PC for old games that just won't run on my
AMD64 machine. I really don't have room for mini tower case on my
desk. I can make room for a desktop case though. The PC will have a
full-size AWE32 ISA card handling sound and music while in DOS.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be very many Micro ATX desktop
cases that have the clearance from front to back for a 12" ISA board.
The mainboard itself is about 9.5"x8.5"

Also, don't most Micro ATX cases come with a smaller power supply?
About how many watts would this PC require? Here's the specs:

333MHz PII
128 MB PC100
integrated ATI Rage AGP video
8GB HD
CD-ROM

Also what about cooling? The PII has a huge fanless Aluminum
heatsink. Other than concerns about space, the CPU should be OK, but
I don't think that the little fan in the PSU is going to give enough
airflow.

Oh well, never mind. Someone had a junked PC with a mATX tower case so
he just gave me the case.

 

[Andy]

Based on the specs, I'd say it consumes about 40 watts.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

Based on the specs, I'd say it consumes about 40 watts.

Thanks

 

[David Maynard]

Ed Coolidge wrote:

I think I found an mATX desktop case that might fit, but it only has a
150w PSU. Is that enough for this PC?

yes

 

[David Maynard]

Oh well, never mind. Someone had a junked PC with a mATX tower case so
he just gave me the case.

I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that sound
like it might have come out of a Dell machine.

At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear fan
right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that
sound like it might have come out of a Dell machine.

At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear
fan right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.

Fanless is not a misnomer. The heatsink does not have a fan. It
obviously doesn't imply anything about the case it's in. BTW, it could
have been from a Dell. They had a duct that clipped over the case or
PSU fan to draw the hot air off the CPU.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

I didn't mean to suggest you had called it the wrong thing. I mean the
term itself is a bit of a misnomer in that it implies no fan at all is
needed when *something* has to move air across it. It isn't a pure
natural convection heatsink.

No, it doesn't imply that the CPU requires no air flow, it simply means
that the heatsink has no fan. Technically, the heatsink only refers to
the metal part that interfaces with the CPU. Since most modern heatsinks
can't provide adequate cooling without an attached fan, people tend to
treat them as a single unit. It's to the point that if the heatsink is
designed to cool without an attached fan that one has to call it
"fanless".

Yeah. The Dell P-II 350 I had used a separate rear exhaust fan, like I
described, with a duct.

That's my point about "a bit of a misnomer." Just how significant is
it to the heatsink being 'fanless' that the fan's mounting bolts go
through the rear case wall rather than the heatsink?

The difference is that the heatsink fan only has one job, and that is to
cool the CPU. The case or PSU fan has the task of cooling the entire
case. Even in the case of the mentioned Dell, the case fan was
"modified" to provide extra air flow over the CPU, but it's primary task
is still to cool the case not just the CPU.

 

[David Maynard]

No, it doesn't imply that the CPU requires no air flow, it simply means
that the heatsink has no fan.

You may think so but that isn't what a 'normal' person is going to think
when confronted with the term "fanless."

If you see a "fanless PSU' advertised do you expect it to have, or need,
fans somewhere? Do you expect a "fanless PC" to have, or need, fans somewhere?

So what the heck is the problem with making people aware that a "fanless
heatsink" doesn't necessarily mean the thing will work properly without a
fan SOMEWHERE?

Not to mention I said only "a bit of" a misnomer, not that it's 'wrong'.

Technically, the heatsink only refers to
the metal part that interfaces with the CPU. Since most modern heatsinks
can't provide adequate cooling without an attached fan, people tend to
treat them as a single unit. It's to the point that if the heatsink is
designed to cool without an attached fan that one has to call it "fanless".



The difference is that the heatsink fan only has one job, and that is to
cool the CPU.

I am aware of what the "difference" is but I asked what the "significance"
was. And to me the "significance" relates to needing airflow over the
heatsink by some means.

I suppose you'd call the Zalman Flower "fanless" since the fan isn't
attached to the heatsink but is mounted on a chassis bar blowing down on it.

The case or PSU fan has the task of cooling the entire
case. Even in the case of the mentioned Dell, the case fan was
"modified" to provide extra air flow over the CPU, but it's primary task
is still to cool the case not just the CPU.

I don't know how you determine that one or the other is "primary" when
they're both essential to the system operating.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

You may think so but that isn't what a 'normal' person is going to
think when confronted with the term "fanless."

Just because someone may think it doesn't make it true. BTW, a "normal
person" by your definition would have no business probing a single
finger inside a PC case. Well, at least that much we can agree on.

If you see a "fanless PSU' advertised do you expect it to have, or
need, fans somewhere? Do you expect a "fanless PC" to have, or need,
fans somewhere?

They may not advertise it, but a fanless PSU still requires air flow
inside the case. However, a fanless PC by definition must be able to
run without a fan or else it wouldn't be fanless would it? For
instance, my old SX-64 was a fanless PC. (Still works BTW). I have
heard of someone trying to use a fanless PSU in a water cooled PC, which
obviously didn't work.

So what the heck is the problem with making people aware that a
"fanless heatsink" doesn't necessarily mean the thing will work
properly without a fan SOMEWHERE?

I never said that it did. Besides, what does the opinion of a "normal"
person have to do with my situation anyway? If I was looking for that I
wouldn't have posted here.

I suppose you'd call the Zalman Flower "fanless" since the fan isn't
attached to the heatsink but is mounted on a chassis bar blowing down
on it.

That's somewhat of a different case. Either way, the heatsink does have
a fan for which it's only purpose is to provide air flow over it.

I don't know how you determine that one or the other is "primary" when
they're both essential to the system operating.

OK, if the fan in the mentioned Dell was indeed the heatsink fan, then
attaching it directly to the heatsink instead of the back of the case
would effect nothing else inside the case. That obviously isn't true,
because unlike the Flower's fan, the case fan in the Dell has to provide
air flow to the entire case. If the duct was somehow designed such that
it didn't provide air flow to anything other than the heatsink, then I
guess you could consider it to be the heatsink fan.

To make my opinion clear on this matter once and for all, a heatsink fan
is a fan that is designed to only provide air flow over the heatsink. A
fanless heatsink is one that is designed such that it can function
properly without a heatsink fan. And yes, a fanless heatsink does
require air flow, only that the air flow is provided by something other
than a heatsink fan.


Anyways, I don't think the case I have is properly ventilated. That has
nothing to do with the heatsink, but the case itself. I would at least
put another fan in it if the idiot that designed it didn't put the hard
drive mount flat against the front of the case where a fan should have
gone. It's no wonder that NEC doesn't build PCs anymore. Of course,
"free" typically means free of cost, not free of problems.

 

[David Maynard]

Just because someone may think it doesn't make it true. BTW, a "normal
person" by your definition would have no business probing a single
finger inside a PC case. Well, at least that much we can agree on.



They may not advertise it, but a fanless PSU still requires air flow
inside the case.

Not for the PSU. It's the other things inside that no longer have a PSU fan
drawing air through the case, unless the whole thing is designed to be fanless.

However, a fanless PC by definition must be able to
run without a fan or else it wouldn't be fanless would it? For
instance, my old SX-64 was a fanless PC. (Still works BTW). I have
heard of someone trying to use a fanless PSU in a water cooled PC, which
obviously didn't work.



I never said that it did. Besides, what does the opinion of a "normal"
person have to do with my situation anyway? If I was looking for that I
wouldn't have posted here.



That's somewhat of a different case. Either way, the heatsink does have
a fan for which it's only purpose is to provide air flow over it.



OK, if the fan in the mentioned Dell was indeed the heatsink fan, then
attaching it directly to the heatsink instead of the back of the case
would effect nothing else inside the case. That obviously isn't true,
because unlike the Flower's fan, the case fan in the Dell has to provide
air flow to the entire case. If the duct was somehow designed such that
it didn't provide air flow to anything other than the heatsink, then I
guess you could consider it to be the heatsink fan.
To make my opinion clear on this matter once and for all, a heatsink fan
is a fan that is designed to only provide air flow over the heatsink. A
fanless heatsink is one that is designed such that it can function
properly without a heatsink fan. And yes, a fanless heatsink does
require air flow, only that the air flow is provided by something other
than a heatsink fan.

I'm not going to bother with that up there as it's mostly you arguing word
games. Just as here, I didn't say anything about the Dell fan being a
'heatsink fan' and, no, "fanless" does not mean that something must provide
airflow as natural convection 'fanless' heatsinks work just fine with no
'fan' provided by something else.

All I said was your 'fanless' heatsink was likely to have problems without
a fan somewhere and, for some reason, you decided to argue wording.

Anyways, I don't think the case I have is properly ventilated.

That is why I warned you about the 'fanless' heatsink.

That has
nothing to do with the heatsink,

Of course not. The CPU is nice and cool, right?

but the case itself. I would at least
put another fan in it if the idiot that designed it didn't put the hard
drive mount flat against the front of the case where a fan should have
gone.

I guess they didn't design it for 'fanless' heatsinks.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

All I said was your 'fanless' heatsink was likely to have problems
without a fan somewhere and, for some reason, you decided to argue
wording.

Again, I never said that a fanless heatsink wouldn't require air flow to
work properly. BTW, wasn't it YOU who started this?

That is why I warned you about the 'fanless' heatsink.
Of course not. The CPU is nice and cool, right?

I don't know why I bother because you never get the point! Putting a
fan on the heatsink isn't going to improve the case ventilation. Even
heatsinks with fans require a properly ventilated case.

 

[David Maynard]

Again, I never said that a fanless heatsink wouldn't require air flow to
work properly. BTW, wasn't it YOU who started this?

Nope. I simply said------

I just noticed the "huge fanless Aluminum heatsink" comment and that sound
like it might have come out of a Dell machine.

At any rate, 'fanless' is a bit of a misnomer. There's no fan on the
heatsink but it does need airflow and Dells had a nice large 90mm rear fan
right behind that "fanless heatsink" drawing air over it for cooling.

--------------------------

Point was you might need to take that into account, if you hadn't already,
and make sure you have sufficient airflow around the heatsink since you're
sticking it a case not made for it.

You then decided to argue.

I don't know why I bother because you never get the point!

I already 'got' the point as I made it. It's you who can't seem to figure
it out because you're too busy arguing semantics.

Putting a
fan on the heatsink isn't going to improve the case ventilation.

I never said one thing about "putting a fan on the heatsink." I simply said
that your "fanless heatsink" needs airflow, and told you how Dell
accomplished it, but left the re-engineering of your 'fanless
heatsink'/generic case combo up to you.

It was just a heads up that you might have problems putting a motherboard
that's part of a 'whole system' engineered thermal solution into a generic
case and, from what you say, it seems you are.

Even
heatsinks with fans require a properly ventilated case.

The case needs proper ventilation, yes, but that's a different matter than
airflow over a 'fanless' heatsink and generic case ventilation will not
necessarily ensure sufficient airflow over one. That's why the ones with
fans have fans and why the Dell case is specially designed with a large
rear exhaust fan ducted over the 'fanless heatsink' so that most, if not
all, of the air flows over it. In addition to cooling the processor that
configuration has a couple of other advantages. For one, the warm CPU air
is directly expelled so it doesn't contribute to case warming and, second,
since it draws the CPU cooling air from the case interior it serves double
duty as case ventilation.

But just blowing a lot of air through a case, in the 'traditional' generic
case manner, will not necessarily cool a 'fanless heatsink' because it's
undirected so the airflow at any arbitrary interior location (the 'fanless
heatsink' being one) is only a small fraction of the total.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

Point was you might need to take that into account, if you hadn't
already, and make sure you have sufficient airflow around the heatsink
since you're sticking it a case not made for it.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. I've already stated that I'm concerned
about airflow within the case.

I never said one thing about "putting a fan on the heatsink." I simply
said that your "fanless heatsink" needs airflow, and told you how Dell
accomplished it, but left the re-engineering of your 'fanless
heatsink'/generic case combo up to you.

It was just a heads up that you might have problems putting a
motherboard that's part of a 'whole system' engineered thermal
solution into a generic case and, from what you say, it seems you are.

I was just stating that even another heatsink with a fan isn't going to
improve the situation very much. Anyway, I already said that I'm
familiar with the Dell systems you referred too. Unfortunately, I don't
have a Dell case just laying around. I bought the CPU at a used parts
shop for $5. As for the case I have, it doesn't have any way to add
exhaust to the rear, just the PSU itself which does does pull air off
the heatsink. I figured that if I move the hard drive to one of the 5
1/4 bays (using an adapter of course) I could at least mount a fan to
the front. No, it's not a custom engineered solution, but that's how it
was running in the old case it was in for over 2 years when my mom had
it. At least in this case the front fan would blow directly toward the
heatsink.

The case needs proper ventilation, yes, but that's a different matter
than airflow over a 'fanless' heatsink and generic case ventilation
will not necessarily ensure sufficient airflow over one. That's why
the ones with fans have fans and why the Dell case is specially
designed with a large rear exhaust fan ducted over the 'fanless
heatsink' so that most, if not all, of the air flows over it. In
addition to cooling the processor that configuration has a couple of
other advantages. For one, the warm CPU air is directly expelled so it
doesn't contribute to case warming and, second, since it draws the CPU
cooling air from the case interior it serves double duty as case
ventilation.

But just blowing a lot of air through a case, in the 'traditional'
generic case manner, will not necessarily cool a 'fanless heatsink'
because it's undirected so the airflow at any arbitrary interior
location (the 'fanless heatsink' being one) is only a small fraction
of the total.

Yes, I'm well aware of the Dell case with the fan duct. The amount of
air that it directs over the heatsink is debatable (yes I took thermal
dynamics in college and no I'm NOT going to debate it!). While it may
be crucial for a high end PIII that does product a good deal of heat,
whether the duct is an absolute necessity for a PII is another matter.
Either way I don't have a duct so I'll just have to make do with what I
have. It may not be an optimal solution, but I'm sure that it will work.

 

[David Maynard]

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. I've already stated that I'm concerned
about airflow within the case.

The problem I see, and what I explained below, is you keep equating case
airflow with cooling the 'fanless heatsink'.

I was just stating that even another heatsink with a fan isn't going to
improve the situation very much.

How did you determine that?

Fact is, that's what works in the typical 'generic' thermal solution,
including the stock Intel heatsink, and tons of them were made that way,
often with no case fan other than the PSU and other times with an added
front. Generics didn't bother much with rear case fan mounting till the hot
to trot AMD slot Athlons.

Dell did it to make the system quiet since a honker, slow RPM, rear case
fan ducted over the heatsink is quieter than a 60mm screamer mounted
directly on it and you can't mount an 80mm or 90mm fan on a slot cart.

Compaq also did ducted 'fanless' heatsinks and you can barely tell an AP550
is even on.

But the point is, neither did it by just blowing undirected air through the
case and I think you're barking up the wrong tree by presuming you can
solve it that way.

Anyway, I already said that I'm
familiar with the Dell systems you referred too. Unfortunately, I don't
have a Dell case just laying around. I bought the CPU at a used parts
shop for $5. As for the case I have, it doesn't have any way to add
exhaust to the rear, just the PSU itself which does does pull air off
the heatsink. I figured that if I move the hard drive to one of the 5
1/4 bays (using an adapter of course) I could at least mount a fan to
the front. No, it's not a custom engineered solution, but that's how it
was running in the old case it was in for over 2 years when my mom had
it. At least in this case the front fan would blow directly toward the
heatsink.

Might work if it's close enough but the airflow is dissipated rather quickly.

Cardboard is cheap and easy to work. Make your own duct.

Or mount a fan near it ala a zalman flower.

Yes, I'm well aware of the Dell case with the fan duct. The amount of
air that it directs over the heatsink is debatable (yes I took thermal
dynamics in college and no I'm NOT going to debate it!). While it may
be crucial for a high end PIII that does product a good deal of heat,

Thermal power for a P-II 350 is 20.8 watts, exactly the same as a P-III 800.

whether the duct is an absolute necessity for a PII is another matter.

You think they stuck it in there just for chuckles or for a P-III that
didn't exist when they made the system?

Either way I don't have a duct so I'll just have to make do with what I
have. It may not be an optimal solution, but I'm sure that it will work.

Good luck.

 

[Ed Coolidge]

The problem I see, and what I explained below, is you keep equating
case airflow with cooling the 'fanless heatsink'.


How did you determine that?

Fact is, that's what works in the typical 'generic' thermal solution,
including the stock Intel heatsink, and tons of them were made that
way, often with no case fan other than the PSU and other times with an
added front. Generics didn't bother much with rear case fan mounting
till the hot to trot AMD slot Athlons.

Dell did it to make the system quiet since a honker, slow RPM, rear
case fan ducted over the heatsink is quieter than a 60mm screamer
mounted directly on it and you can't mount an 80mm or 90mm fan on a
slot cart.

Compaq also did ducted 'fanless' heatsinks and you can barely tell an
AP550 is even on.

But the point is, neither did it by just blowing undirected air
through the case and I think you're barking up the wrong tree by
presuming you can solve it that way.

When discussing heatsinks there's several points that have to be
considered. One is the amount of heat that the heatsink can dissipate.
Another is ambient temperature. Yes, a fan can be used to to increase
the air flow over the heatsink, but if the case isn't properly
ventilated what you'll really accomplish is raising the ambient case
temperature. Also, increasing air flow through the case in fact can
help reduce the ambient case temperature. Since you're obviously an
expert on heatsinks and case design, I'm sure you already knew that.

Might work if it's close enough but the airflow is dissipated rather
quickly.

Cardboard is cheap and easy to work. Make your own duct.

Or mount a fan near it ala a zalman flower.

The problem with a duct in my case is that the most of the air flow from
the PSU is being pulled upward from behind CPU. Dell's fan and duct is
obviously far more efficient. I also tried placing a fan next to the
heatsink, which of course lowered the CPU temps, but it also blew the
air all through the case. That's why case air flow through is necessary
to help push the hot air out to the exhaust. Otherwise you just get
toasty PC parts. If you still don't believe me then just read Intel's
case design guidelines. Many case manufactures seem to ignore that part.

Thermal power for a P-II 350 is 20.8 watts, exactly the same as a
P-III 800.

800 MHz is hardly "high end" PIII.

 

[David Maynard]

When discussing heatsinks there's several points that have to be
considered. One is the amount of heat that the heatsink can dissipate.
Another is ambient temperature. Yes, a fan can be used to to increase
the air flow over the heatsink, but if the case isn't properly
ventilated what you'll really accomplish is raising the ambient case
temperature. Also, increasing air flow through the case in fact can
help reduce the ambient case temperature. Since you're obviously an
expert on heatsinks and case design, I'm sure you already knew that.

You're quite right, I did.

You, of course, also knew that "the amount of heat that the heatsink can
dissipate" is dependent on not only ambient but the airflow across it's
dissipating surfaces.

The problem with a duct in my case is that the most of the air flow from
the PSU is being pulled upward from behind CPU. Dell's fan and duct is
obviously far more efficient. I also tried placing a fan next to the
heatsink, which of course lowered the CPU temps, but it also blew the
air all through the case.

Of course it did.

That's why case air flow through is necessary
to help push the hot air out to the exhaust. Otherwise you just get
toasty PC parts.

Perhaps. What was case temp?

If you still don't believe me then just read Intel's
case design guidelines.

I never said case airflow wasn't important. What I said was that just
shoving air into the case wouldn't necessarily cool the 'fanless heatsink'.

Many case manufactures seem to ignore that part.

Then how do you explain the millions of them working just fine?

800 MHz is hardly "high end" PIII.

It's closer to the top than the bottom but your whole 'retort' is a good
example of what I mean when I say you are more interested in arguing than
in a solution.