Messenger Plus! - Let's focus on another Sacred Cow for a while

P

PA Bear

Enough about the 'End of Free Hotmail' already. Let's dissect Messenger
Plus! now...

Sandi's take on Messenger Plus!
http://inetexplorer.mvps.org/data/messenger_plus.htm

Ready, steady, GO!
--
~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-Windows (IE/OE), AH-VSOP

WinXP SP2: What's New for Internet Explorer and Outlook Express
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/sp2/ieoeoverview.mspx

What You Should Know About Spyware
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/devioussoftware.mspx

"There is no 'silver bullet' solution."
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=33131
 
P

Patchou

Well, what a nice coincidence. For those interested in the subject,
I'm currently working on another, more clear version of the sponsor
agreement window. More information available on the Messenger Plus!
forum at http://msgplus.mybboard.com .

As for your article Sandi, it's well written, I guess you're right on
some points but I think you exagerate on some things, especially the
"sponsor" term part... writing "lop.com" would be much more misleading
than "sponsor" as most people have no idea what "lop.com" is. And,
while I'm at it, the company name is not lop.com but C2Media :).

Anyway, just know that I'm really trying my best to please everyone,
it's not like I was happy reading what I read sometimes about my
software (or myself) on some forums :p.

Patchou
 
P

Patchou

I just saw this updated on your site and I thought I had to reply...
Why that name and not C2 Media? Because C2 Media describes
the owner, not the product, because there is more than one
C2 Media company out there, and because lop.com is how the
software is commonly identified in various support forums,
newsgroups, online support sites and how it is identified in
anti-spyware programmes.
Click to expand...

lop.com is just the name of one of the sites of C2Media, it is
absolutely not the name of the product. Feel free to compare my
package with old ones under named lop.com, you'll see that they are
completely different. And you say it yourself, lop.com is known by
many anti-spyware programs and they are the same products that screw
up the uninstall data of the sponsor, preventing some epople from
really uninstalling it. How could it be my fault if some programs
think they can outsmart the uninstall software ofwhat they're trying
to remove? if you have some complains, send send to the Adaware and
Spybot people. Instead of blindly removing files and registry keys
they could simply display a nice message asking the user to the
program. I'm really not to blame here, I'm taking a lot of time
ensuring the uninstaller does work and you have to understand that
there's nothing C2Media can do about third party removing their stuff
half way. Try to remove a couple of important registr keys related to
MS Office and launch the uninstaller, you'll have the same problem,
and it's true for any other software.

Finally, as for "lop.com", "sponsor" and "C2Media", I still stand on
my point that "sponsor" is what informs people the best way. lop.com
and C2Media are not terms you see in the dictionnary and most people
don't spend their time in anti-adware forums, you should try to
understand that. I'm doing my best to satisfy everyone here, if I
didn't care I wouldn't spend all this time replying to posts such as
yours, I wish some people could realise that. The same thing goes for
C2Media, if they were as horrible as you pretend, their software would
install once and for all on your system, like so many other adware do,
without any way to remove it (except relying on third party programs).
I think everyone should start making a difference between legitimate
adware to support a program you use every day and spyware invading
your system.

Patchou
 
R

raceprouk

PA Bear said:
Sandi's take on Messenger Plus!
http://inetexplorer.mvps.org/data/messenger_plus.htm
Click to expand...

(Reply aimed at Sandi)
I'm sorry, but that article is not fully technically accurate, and is
also unfair to those of us in the Plus community.

Patchou is committed to his users (all 6 million+ of them), and won't
sacrifice his or the product's reputation for a bit of extra money. He
listens to his users, and the forum members, and tries to find the
best compromise. It is this that has lead to Plus being the most
respected, popular, and well-known Messenger add-on.

As for the forum members themselves, of which I am one (about a year
as of this post, and nearly 1000 posts on the forum), those who post
regularly are some of the most helpful and patient people around. We
are all *voluntarily* here to help. If that's not appreciated, then we
can just disappear. But you don't want that, do you? ;)

At the end of the day, you can't turn around and slag someone and
their product off just because of an optional sponsor. Nor can you
slag off the forum members for getting a little fed up with the 10
gazillionth "msn plus iz spywarez" thread from someone who clearly did
not read the installer.

Basically, be a bit more tolerant and informed.
 
P

PA Bear

For those wondering what all the flap is about regarding lop.com, please see
the following links:

http://www.doxdesk.com/parasite/lop.html

http://www.spywareinfo.com/articles/lop/

http://www.spywareinfo.com/newsletter/archives/june-2003/3.php
(dated, admittedly, but even the current version of MP gives you a "drive
by" install of lop.com)

What Users Say (Good & Bad) About MP
http://www.download.com/3302-2150_4-10320442.html

<quote>
26-Sep-2004 03:22:12 PM
"I've used this program for 3 years now."
This is awsome software that is now into the third version. I've used it
from version 1.2 without any complaintes. it actually runs more stable than
msn messenger itself. For all the people who complain about the OPTIONAL
sponsor it should just teach you to actually READ the EULA :). if you did
click to fast it is fully documented on how to remove it. This software
would be perfect without the sponsor but then patchou would be living in the
street. get over it you selfish people.
</quote>

<quote>
26-Sep-2004 06:52:12 AM
"Sponsor disguised as a EULA to trick people into installing..."
Although Patchou and his flock of sheep try to convince people that the
sponsor is easily uninstalled, this is not the case for everyone... Yet
Patchou and these 'loyal' forum members choose to show nothing but ignorance
and arrogance towards anyone who tries to say that uninstalling and
reinstalling plus, does NOT remove the sponsor... As a previous beta tester
and previous 'loyal' follower of Patchou and this software, I can guarantee
that the sponsor does NOT always uninstall without the help of third party
software such as Adaware... Patchou now makes enough money from people being
'tricked' into installing the sponsor, that greed has taken over and he no
longer cares about the users of his software... Although Plus is a good
addon for MSN, I advise people to take particular care when installing so as
to avoid the installation of what is definitely spyware... I don't know who
you are trying to kid, Patchou, but it is just that...spyware... It is not a
toolbar like the google toolbar... It is intrusive and very hard to get rid
of... Therefore, it is nothing but spyware...
</quote>

IMO Pachou is to be congratulated for attempting to clarify his relationship
with C2 Media (who *still* subtly bury malware in what's called a 'drive by'
install)

Help with Hijackware
http://aumha.org/a/parasite.htm
http://aumha.org/a/quickfix.htm
http://mvps.org/winhelp2002/unwanted.htm
http://inetexplorer.mvps.org/Darnit.htm
http://www.mvps.org/sramesh2k/Malware_Defence.htm
 
P

Patrick Dickey--MSN Beta Tester

Hmmm.. interesting.. If it weren't for the 'sponsor' he'd be living in the
street. I remember seeing a post about Messenger Plus on one of the
anti-spyware sites where Patchou's response was basically "Too bad."

Here's a thought that I've seen on a lot of other sites.. PAYPAL. Or
StormPay. Your 6 million + members could donate 1 dollar, and you'd never
have to work again.. But, that's not an option, right?

I liked Messenger Plus BEFORE it installed a bunch of spyware crap on my
computer (This was before Patchou stated it in his EULA). I haven't used it
since, and I don't recommend it to anyone. Simply because I've seen
articles that say where his 'sponsor' is optional, it still installs.

Plus, I agree with Sandi about the "Pass-through toolbar". If I want to
change my homepage, search page, and other pages back to what I wanted, then
C2Media, MPlus, or whoever is the 'sponsor' has NO right adding another
toolbar to my computer (for monitoring my habits).
Patrick.
 
S

Sandi - Microsoft MVP

(Reply aimed at Sandi)
I'm sorry, but that article is not fully technically accurate, and is
also unfair to those of us in the Plus community.
Click to expand...

If you would like to advise what part of the article you think is not
technically accurate, I'm more than happy to investigate.
 
J

Jonathan Kay [MVP]

Firstly, you have to understand the Messenger demographics. Do you really expect a 14-year
old kid in the Netherlands to open a PayPal account, connect to their bank account and send
money online for a piece of software? Plus's largest bulk of users are not in North America
nor do they own credit cards; how do you expect them to pay? Also, "donation" links rarely
get much attention; you either charge for something or you don't.

Secondly, Microsoft itself doesn't look too favorably on third-party tools that are making a
significant amount of money of their own free software. The whole "legality" of Plus is
actually questionable (although the EULA can be interpreted in several ways).

Thirdly, there are plenty of "freeware"-like applications that have the same sort of
"sponsor" type model, everything from the banner ad within Opera to some FTP tools I've seen.
This isn't anything new.

Finally, don't believe everything you read. I can find you articles that say iPod's are
delivery mechanisms for transporting people into various cults or that Bill Gates is an
alien. If you say no to the sponsor, then the sponsor doesn't install; there is absolutely
no basis and plenty of work has been done by cynics in the past to disprove this.
____________________________________________
Jonathan Kay
Microsoft MVP - MSN Messenger/Windows Messenger
Associate Expert
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/
Messenger Resources - http://messenger.jonathankay.com
All posts unless otherwise specified are (c) 2004 Jonathan Kay.
You *must* contact me for redistribution rights.
 
P

Patchou

Well Patrick, I'd like to live in your world. Do you honestly think
that I would bundle adware if people were willing to donate for the
software? you see, when I see things like "I've seen articles that say
where his 'sponsor' is optional, it still installs" it pains me to
realise how much false information can be distributed on the net, and
you're contributing to it by posting it again on this news post.

If you actually read the last post I made in this thread, you would
probably not write such things. But hey, it's so easy to hit on
Patchou-the-bad-guy isn't it? you accuse forum members to be children,
yet, what I see here is childish complains disconnected from reality.
Anyone who actually bothers to read my replies can easily realise that
I'm just doing my best to satisfy my users, why can't you see that?

I'm not sure I would be so proud to have that kind of support Sandy,
it's just too easy to bad-mouth without trying to understand. Of
course, here we go again with the quote game, taking things out of
context, spreading rumors about stuff I would have said on one post
one day.. aren't you tired after all that time? don't you think enough
is enough? If you don't want to read my replies, fine, I won't bother
to reply again, but don't go and say that I don't care about my users
because I certainely care about them more than you care about giving
objective information to your readers.

Patchou
 
J

Jonathan Kay [MVP]

=)

I think it is an important discussion topic simply because of all the misinformation about
it. However, one thing I forgot to mention is that no one is forcing anyone else to use
Plus -- I know plenty of people that refuse to use Plus for this and other reasons.
____________________________________________
Jonathan Kay
Microsoft MVP - MSN Messenger/Windows Messenger
Associate Expert
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/
Messenger Resources - http://messenger.jonathankay.com
All posts unless otherwise specified are (c) 2004 Jonathan Kay.
You *must* contact me for redistribution rights.
 
J

Jack D. Russell, Sr.

======================================================================
* Reply by Jack D. Russell, Sr. <[email protected]>
* Newsgroup:
microsoft.public.msn.messenger,microsoft.public.windowsxp.messenger,micr
osoft.public.msn.discussion
* Reply to: All; "Patchou" <[email protected]>
* Date: 3 Oct 2004 11:27:48 -0700
* Subj: Re: Messenger Plus! - Let's focus on another Sacred Cow for a
while
======================================================================

P> Well Patrick, I'd like to live in your world. Do you honestly think
P> that I would bundle adware if people were willing to donate for the
P> software? you see, when I see things like "I've seen articles that
P> say where his 'sponsor' is optional, it still installs" it pains me
P> to realise how much false information can be distributed on the net,
P> and you're contributing to it by posting it again on this news post.
P>
P> If you actually read the last post I made in this thread, you would
P> probably not write such things. But hey, it's so easy to hit on
P> Patchou-the-bad-guy isn't it? you accuse forum members to be
P> children, yet, what I see here is childish complains disconnected
P> from reality. Anyone who actually bothers to read my replies can
P> easily realise that I'm just doing my best to satisfy my users, why
P> can't you see that?
P>
P> I'm not sure I would be so proud to have that kind of support Sandy,
P> it's just too easy to bad-mouth without trying to understand. Of
P> course, here we go again with the quote game, taking things out of
P> context, spreading rumors about stuff I would have said on one post
P> one day.. aren't you tired after all that time? don't you think
P> enough is enough? If you don't want to read my replies, fine, I won't
P> bother to reply again, but don't go and say that I don't care about
P> my users because I certainely care about them more than you care
P> about giving objective information to your readers.
P>
P> Patchou
P>
P> "Patrick Dickey--MSN Beta Tester" <pd1ckey43(removeThis)@msn.com>
P> wrote in message FL>> Hmmm.. interesting.. If it weren't for the 'sponsor' he'd be
FL>> living in the street. I remember seeing a post about Messenger
FL>> Plus on one of the anti-spyware sites where Patchou's response was
FL>> basically "Too bad."
FL>>
FL>> Here's a thought that I've seen on a lot of other sites.. PAYPAL.
FL>> Or StormPay. Your 6 million + members could donate 1 dollar, and
FL>> you'd never have to work again.. But, that's not an option, right?
FL>>
FL>> I liked Messenger Plus BEFORE it installed a bunch of spyware crap
FL>> on my computer (This was before Patchou stated it in his EULA). I
FL>> haven't used it since, and I don't recommend it to anyone. Simply
FL>> because I've seen articles that say where his 'sponsor' is
FL>> optional, it still installs.
FL>>
FL>> Plus, I agree with Sandi about the "Pass-through toolbar". If I
FL>> want to change my homepage, search page, and other pages back to
FL>> what I wanted, then C2Media, MPlus, or whoever is the 'sponsor' has
FL>> NO right adding another toolbar to my computer (for monitoring my
FL>> habits). Patrick.

Hear, hear. But really now...when you lay down with dogs...
While I can appreciate you're need for sponsorship in your wholly worthy
endeavor to provide your users with a quality program, you didn't really
think that truly informed computer users would let the lop.com thing get
past without raising holy he**, did you? Can't you find a sponsor with a
little better reputation among the "well informed" users? It's a shame
that you have to put up with a company that has such a shoddy record
where privacy rights are concerned. JMHO.
 
P

Patrick Dickey--MSN Beta Tester

Ok, first of all, I want to clarify something. I didn't say that your
program wasn't worthwhile. In fact, I've recommended in other news groups
that MSN should incorporate some of the features that you provide. I did,
however, say that I don't recommend it to anyone BECAUSE of the spyware
("Sponsor"). If people ask me about it, I warn them that the spyware is an
issue.

I wasn't sure if I would even post in here the first time, until I read two
things. The quote on Sandi's site about " yes, it could be redesigned to
warn you better but then, nobody would install it, let's be honest" and the
quote in PA Bear's reply that says "without the sponsor but then patchou
would be living in the street".

Since, you are committed to your users, may I give you a couple of
suggestions? (Hoping you'll read these). If you're not going to drop the
sponsor, then give people three options. One is no sponsor, nothing... One
is no sponsor( (in the sense of shortcuts, toolbars, and pop up ads), but
then at the bottom of the messenger window (or somewhere in the window),
they will have an ad banner. They don't have to click on that, it's not
targeted, just whatever ad the sponsor or whomever decides that ALL
Messenger Plus people will get at that moment.. Or, they can choose to
install the sponsor with the popups, shortcuts, and the toolbars..

Just so everyone's clear, I realize that the second option may not be
feasible since it's MSN's Messenger program and not Patchou's.. But, it's
still an idea.

As for my earlier post about making donations, it works for other sites.
And, you are respected enough in the Messenger world (as it may be) that
people would donate if they can. Another option would be an affiliation
page with a company such as element5. I would imagine that people would buy
a program through your page, if they were looking for it. Just because of
your status where Messenger Plus is concerned. (Meaning, they would be more
apt to purchase the program through your affiliation, then say through
mine). And yes, I realize that you may have considered all of these
options. If so, then forgive me for bringing them back up again.

Finally, I also want to clarify one more paragraph in my earlier post. I
had downloaded Messenger Plus before you started to include the "Sponsor".
One day, I got a notice saying there was an update to Messenger Plus.. So, I
updated. And, a bunch of shortcuts appeared on my desktop. When I went to
uninstall them, the window showed that Messenger Plus installed them.. So, I
uninstalled MPlus as well. This was BEFORE the version where you started to
inform people that they could opt out of installing the sponsor.

Patrick.
 
P

Patchou

Thank you for the flame-free reply Patrick, that's a batter way to
start the day :). Well, first, regarding me living on the street, I
never said such a thing. However, it is true that Messenger Plus! is
also my job now and that the sponsor is the only thing that brings
food to the table every month. That being said, as you saw in a quote
fSandy'Sarticle, I realise that the agreement window could be
redesignedand that's why I've been working on it in the past couple of
days. Thechanges will be tested this weekend and the final new look
for the agreement window will be part of version 3.25 (released soon
after 3.21).

Donations don't work, I've tried them for more than a year. I really
don't know many site that work liek this and I serioucly doubt any
site with moderate importance can survive with donations only. Also,
you have to make the difference between paying for a site to stay
alive, and paying for a site and a job.

I also want to clarify something: I NEVER forced the sponsor on
anyone's computer. It is true that while I was testing C2Media's
packge last year, the agreement window had been quickly included in
the setup and you could install the sponsor without realizing it.
However, I never installed it silently on anyone's computer, ever.

You can continue to warn your friends about the sponsor, it never
bothered me to ee the warnign on many sites (athough I find it too
much when the only screenshot I see on ZDNet is the agreement window
with "I refuse" checked :p). Again, the only thing that bothers me is
articles focused on destroying my software's reputation, without any
regard for the real facts (or their real signification).

And Sandy, why don't you stop updating your article to post your
answers and start posting them in your own newsgroup thread? it's way
too easy to post a quote of ONE reply you got, making it sound like if
it was the only thing you got. Why not posting my own replies then?
quoting is an exercise you seem to love as long as it's in your own
advantage. I think you are being very impolite and I thought you would
have shown more intelligence and respect toward your peers. What do
you think your reaction would be if I posted a nes on msgplus.net
saying all kinds of bad stuff about you, quoting you everytime
possible to make you sound like a horrible person and then, instead of
replying to your posts, just updating my article to make you sound
even more like a fool? This is no attitude for an MVP.

Patchou
 
B

Brian!

I'm not replying directly to you, yours is just the post I landed on when I
hit "Reply Group".

I have been using MsgPlus since Jan 2003 (Pre C2Media) by a friend of mine.
The features that MsgPlus provided to the average Messenger user were great,
and Patchou has gone out of his way to add more features and improve the GUI
so that more people can use these features even easier.

I do not install the sponsor on my home PC as it is also the main home PC
that my kids have access to. While I do not doubt Patchou's word about
having the C2Media installer cut right down to keep as much of the 'usual'
stuff out of it, I don't trust my kids (7yr, 5yr & 4yr) not to click on
something that appears on screen if my back is turned for 5 seconds.

Since C2Media has come onboard with Patchou I have always installed the
sponsor program on my initial install, then removed MsgPlus and reinstalled
it without the sponsor, and I have had no problems whatsoever with
everything being removed from my fave list and my homepage being put back to
rights.

Below is a post I made to the MsgPlus boards.
===
You've got my vote Patchou. I've just had people on a game website
messageboard giving MsgPlus a slammin, so I jumped in and corrected them
about the optional sponsor, etc...

This project makes Messenger worth using. If we waited for M$ to come out
with the same level or quality of features on their own, I know that I for
one would be old and grey before that would even happen.

I freely and openly offer a mirror download link for your program of every
release since just before MP2! (IIRC), & there is nothing I can read that
will convince me that I am helping a "software criminal".

Keep up the work, try to let these attacks against your person pass you by,
and be the bigger and better man by rising above the level of these ignorant
bigots that wish to attack you and your work.

How many people install Kazaa, yet don't complain about the amount of
garbage it forcibly installs onto a computer? I wonder how many of their
userbase have written nasty emails with personal scathing attacks against
the software creator, etc...!

Plus gives people the option of a sponsor package being installed, yet
Patchou gets branded as worse than Satan because of it. Gimme a break!
 
S

Sandi - Microsoft MVP

And Sandy,
Click to expand...

Its Sandi thanks Patchou.
why don't you stop updating your article to post your
answers and start posting them in your own newsgroup thread?
Click to expand...

It isn't *my* newsgroup thread. I didn't start it, and the only post I have
made to it apart from this one is a request for more information about
supposed 'technical inaccuracy' which I see has gone unanswered. I have
provided an email address for correspondence if you choose to use it.
 
J

Joe Simpson

The MP installer is delibrately misleading, notice there is only 1 license
agreement; for the malware, and none for MP itself, because if users had to
click through 2 License agreements they'd actually pay attention and look at
what the 2 different agreements are about and hence reduce the number of
people being mislead in to installing the malware. Of course, a problem with
not providing a seperate license agreement for MP means patchou is not
disclaiming warranty on his work and hence opening himself up to claims of
compensation should a user have any sort of difficulty with MP. Here's an
interesting bit of info most people aren't aware of; C2 Media pay 6 cents
USD per installation of their malware and patchou has stated publically he
gets about 800,000 suckers per month installing it, simple mathematics will
tell you that equates to $48,000 USD per month. I'm sure if you're like
patchou and like making your money off the misery of others you'll tell
users the malware is harmless and that he's just a poor programmer trying to
make a living. You can see how greed has blinded him.
 
S

Sandi - Microsoft MVP

Your statement is in direct contradiction to a message by Patchou in which
he said:

" "For the record: I'being paid by searches (and only for some of them), so
I wouldn't win a cent even if a billion users installed my sponsor tomorrow
.. PaidByInstall are generalle more vicious adware (sypwares) that do things
I wouldn't want to happen to my users."
http://msgplus.mybboard.com/showthread.php?tid=24337&pid=234631

Do you have cites, or articles, that bolster your statement?


--
Hyperlinks are used to ensure advice remains current
_______________________________________
Sandi - Microsoft MVP since 1999 (IE/OE)
http://inetexplorer.mvps.org/
 
P

Patchou

In case there would be some doubts, I'm still not paid by install. And
so you know, C2Media doesn't give 6 cents per install for the kind of
package I have (and I'm pretty sure that most of their old stuff is
not being distributed anymore anyway). Please make sure you have up to
date info before posting them :).

And once again, I've not done anything misleading on purpose (compare
my agreement with many other software distributing adware and you'll
see), I'm just realizing that the agreement window should be
redesigned now and that's what I've done in the version that will be
released next week. At least, people will, hopfully, stop saying that
I'm doing all sorts of evil things on purpose.... "making your money
off the misery of others".... don't you think you exagerate just a
little? you're watching too many movies.

Patchou
 
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